Ethos83

Umm...

So when I said most of Scottish trade was domestic where was the nonsense?

shiva

And? That trade will stop overnight? The rest of the UK will suddenly source it all elsewhere?
My point was there is slightly more to Scottish foreign trade than the auld alliance

Kix

Shiva, you and I agree, but for totally different reasons, you have the dream of a new future and I want to cut the gammy appendages off that are crippling England.

mikewot

I do not, that is most certainly not my intent (if I ever had one). But salmond is talking keech, the 'paper' is full of pish and wind. What we need are hard facts based or verifiable figures. The central belt does very well thank you very much. What about the highlands and islands where there is little or no work and 'the council' is the largest employer? Is it surprising that these are bad places to live? My youngest son teaches in a sink school in Inverness where most pupils realise that the chances of obtaining a job are about 1 in 10.

shiva

I agree with you on all of the above, the state employing huge numbers is a UK and eu issue though not just Scotland and is utterly unsustainable in the long run.
My argument for change is that the above are all true and we have no real plan either from Westminster or Edinburgh to tackle them. We should all be demanding change from all parties, in a year when there is so much at stake the electorate have a real shot at driving policy change to address these, either through independence or as measures of appeasement from Westminster.

The vast majority would agree our system is broken, breaking further and has little hope of change anytime soon.

Why not take a shot at something that works?

Ethos83

What I said was simple enough. Scotland's biggest trading partner, by an enormous margin, is the rest of the UK. Scotland also imports from the rest of the UK by a big margin. Scotland is still very economically dependent on the UK, much more so than any other nation.

What you were trying to claim (or imply) is a red herring.

mikewot

Because it falls a long long way short of 'working'. Salmond and his cronies make an incredible number of assumptions in 'the paper'. It reminds me very much of Martin Luther Kings 'I have a dream' speech. Yes he had a dream, but he didn't have a plan.

Ethos83

Hope and dreams are always attractive. The nitty gritty reality isn't always so.

There are problems facing Scotland which are similar to problems faced elsewhere in England but the overall picture isn't....bad, is it? It's still a fairly prosperous, fairly well-organised and well-run country.

If Scotland was failed by decades of generous Labour dominance then how will post-independence SNP or Scottish Labour make it better?

shiva

I claimed that Scottish foreign trade is not the myth or small time home business that most assume, 25billion for a nation of 5 million is not exactly nothing. 45 to the rest of the UK again is not nothing and it's no redd herring to suggest that that is highly unlikely to change either overnight or in fact much at all after any independence.

The red herring is the assumption that scotlands trade both inside and outside the UK will cease to exist if the country goes independent.

shiva

My point being nobody is demanding or offering an actual plan. That's the real shame

shiva

It won't unless the people demand better and given the stakes politicians are in a listen mood right now

shiva

The biggest problem I can see with the whole issue right now is salmond and his paper are full of shite but then again the better together campaign could also choke on their own bullshit.

An actual debate with real figures that nobody wants to make public would be nice

mikewot

Huh? The people of Scotland deserve and expect a proper plan, not this garbage. Salmond has grandiose dreams but they'll never turn into reality unless he gets his sh1t into one sock.

mikewot

Concur 100%

shiva

Like the turn of phrase.

The whole uk deserves a meaningful plan, then again the union wasn't too well thought out when it happened either.

Salmond has probably worked out that the minute Scotland gets independence his political career is over