Meow

So you want total devolution?

It'll never happen.

Kix

I can't see it either, however i also couldn't see the Berlin Wall falling and the breakup of the Soviet Union and still can't understand why Tony is the UN envoy to the Middle East and hasn't been hauled before the courts for lying.

MacScot

One legal system? I can't see the rest of the UK adopting Scots Law having, for example, procurator fiscals, 15-person juries, and three verdicts in criminal trials "guilty", "not guilty" or "not proven". Though, I think you are possibly hinting at expanding English Law across this "small island". Continuation of English Law and Scots Law was guaranteed in perpetuity in England (& Wales) and Scotland and are specific articles in both the Scottish and English Acts of Union.

Meow

I haven't said that one system should be adopted or that one is better than another. I am sure both have merit, but it's daft to have two systems, so it seems to me that it makes sense to have one system, a best of each.

MacScot

Agree, one way is to end the Union then each country will have one legal system.

Meow

Well if you have that attitude I'd be glad to see you go.

MacScot

Many are thinking that way, but I suspect they will be afraid ('feart') to take the step. However, if the Scots did opt for independence (though I still think it unlikely), surely it would be a bit like Ireland - we all get along famously with the Irish, don't really see them as foreigners (in fact there was a UK Act of UK Parliament to actually say that Ireland was not a foreign country!), and they don't need passports to enter the UK and vice versa for UK citizens going to Ireland. Sort of "British Isles" family of nations, a bit like Scandinavia.

shiva

Some of the comments from both sides of the debate, both within the bored and the UK are downright ridiculous and often blatantly racist.

30% of the Scottish population want independence that in and of itself is more than enough justification for a national debate and possibly a referendum.

There was a union of the crowns and later governments between Scotland and England and at no point were the people consulted.

Now we live in a different time and the people are being consulted, the current questions is one of Scotland's future to be decided by its people.

Should England, Wales or Northern Ireland wish to have a similar debate I would support it wholeheartedly.

Is salmond an idiot? No he's an extremely astute political operator who was elected by the scots. I think it's fairly clear where his aims lie and at no point has he ever misled anyone about that.

The referendum on independence may yet go down in Scottish history as a turning point. While almost certain to lose the vote this time Scotland will almost certainly gain more devolved power, which in and of itself will probably lead to independence one day. It will only take one big issue to supported in Scotland and rejected in Westminster for a rift to develop that cannot be repaired.

For me there are many things being ignored by both sides. The snp and salmond are not an independent Scotland's future. The current government would oversee any transition and then a general election would have to be held where one presumes there would be a Scottish labour, conservative, green and so on parties standing for election.

All peoples deserve the right to self determination and representation, Scotland gained a devolved parliament precisely because the people (97% of them) decided that the political set up at the time did not in fact represent them. To a degree the scots already voted for and gained independence , the debate now is for the scots to decide on their future. Not the future of the uk but the future of Scotland and it's place in the world.

Both sides are getting tied up in issues that distract from the main point and unfortunately the scots are being short changed by all political parties.

The scots have a chance not to be a new nation trying democracy for the first time, hamstrung by war and third world disadvantages but a new nation well versed in democracy with a modern infrastructure.

Where is the debate asking just what we could do as a nation unencumbered by history . The debate asking who we want to be in the world and how we want to build and govern our society for the betterment of all.

Some of the very notions that built western democracy have their roots in Scotland and Scottish thinking, where are our great minds now and why are they not debating these issues.

Most people in the uk would confess that while our system of government is pretty good on a global scale there are many changes that need to be made.

There is an opportunity right now for this to be debated and if not implemented in a new nation to at least be at the forefront of politics both within Scotland and the uk going forwards.


For me I'd like to see independence in my lifetime, it won't happen in 2014 and it's not because I hate the English ( my son is half English so that'd be pretty daft) but id like Scotland to gain full self determination and take a chance at rewriting how we run a country. Take some of the desires of the people and combine them with a sensible way of running government. Any new nation nowadays has the chance to step away from the inherited nonsense of a centuries old system, keep the bits that work and dispose of the nonsensical, to look to other countries and where sensible adopt policies and procedures without being hamstrung by centuries of entrenched dogma and tradition.

Of course with the current brand of career politician who seem to ignore the public and servant parts of public service this may never happen but what would happen and how different would the debate be if we looked at the possibilities and not the minutia. As an aside would the rest of the uk not also like to see some of these issues raised, I aspect they would but not a single politician would.

scrubbedexpat141

Interesting points and post Shiva.

I think one thing that would be a shame if Scotland were independent is the end of the current 'Great Britain'. A lot of the special, important and world-leading things this collective has delivered are a combined effort from Scots, N.Irish, English and Welsh. As a whole we are a fantastically respected little island(s) internationally.

To lose Scotland, their addition and influence across Britain would just be a shame. I don't think it would erase the history I briefly touched on above but it would certainly alter the future.

How different would it be? Who knows? How much less interaction would there be between the rest of Britain and Scotland? WHo knows? Would it actually make much difference? Who knows?

I fundamentally agree that a referendum is fair if opinion polls and requests are high enough to justify and warrant it. That's true democracy. Do I want to see it in my lifetime? No.

The only upside is I'd get to claim dual-nationality, which is cool. But ultimately my Dad becomes a foreigner, not so cool.

Meow

Interesting points Shiva, but I have a question. England and Scotland have been linked for 400 years, so isn't that enough time to have accepted the situation and made the best of it?

It sounds as if many have been bearing a grudge over many generations instead of working to improve things and for all to benefit from the union. I don't understand the separatist mentality and the anti-English feeling. I've always accepted that we are the British Isles/United Kingdom and never describe myself as English, but as British.

(Supplementary question - are you coming to the meeting of BE weirdos next week?)

Kix

Just to add, as it will affect the whole of the UK, shouldn't England, wales and northern ireland have a say too?

Obviously it's undemocratic for just UK people who have an address in scotland have the right to cast their vote.

Maybe we should open it up to all the provinces of England, straightforward question, should the following have independence? scotland, ales, northern ireland and then, if the populace say that (say) scotland and wales should but northern ireland shouldn't, then the voters of The Union have spoken and they can have it.

I'd vote yes to all three - but you knew that already.

I'm English, not British btw.

weasel decentral

I think Scotland could make a go of it, if given a chance. You don't have to look very far to see a similar situation:

1: Governed by Britain for 400 years
2: Joined the EU separately
3: Separate currency after independence.
4: Low population density
5: Natural resources and agriculture rich.
6: Charming attractive people

Ok, maybe Scotland don't have point 6 but other points are strikingly similar.

weasel decentral

It doesn't really work that way though does it.

Kix

It doesn't but as it affects everyone in the UK it should.

mikewot

Easy tiger! Be very careful when you start playing the racist card. Please point out the racist comments because they're not acceptable in this forum.
N.B. 'English' or 'Scottish' are not races. Being a negro or Chinese are both races.