Norm_uk

Ah so the only way to make a fair judgement on Islam is to read the Koran and Hadiths with a Sheikh?

Are people so unintelligent they cannot study for themselves? Is the system so complicated it cannot be understood without guidance from people who fully subscribe to it? That reminds me of the Christian argument that one cannot fully understand the bible without the Holy Spirit (in other words: accepting and believing it first - studying it second).

Seems you're really uncomfortable with any criticism of Islam and want to link it to hatred of Muslim people as a whole in order to silence criticism. There's racism everywhere but this topic is about Muslims not all people.

N.

UKCityGent

]Ah so the only way to make a fair judgement on Islam is to read the Koran and Hadiths with a Sheikh >> In my opinion, yes.

Seems you're really uncomfortable with any criticism of Islam >> Im critical of people who pretend to have any indepth knowledge but lead the majority of posts towards their ignorant, biased opinions constantly. Reading a board and pretending you have any impact of my health or wealth does not make me uncomfortable - this is not real life - but I do hate seeing bullies.

Can you tell me your background regarding understanding, knowledge of Islam ?

Ronnie Biggs

Where has anyone been bullied? This board is surely all about opinions, so why not debate the man rather than immediately resorting to personal abuse?

UKCityGent

Sorry perhaps you should read my posts again - i have been polite, patient and have not used any abuse or degoratory behaviour.

sherri

City lad, I agree with Norm on this, it’s not mandatory to read the Koran and Hadiths before you slate Muslims. What have they actually done/achieved since the death of Prophet Mohammed that is commendable? The only thing they have successfully achieved is to wrongly portray Islam as an impious religion. I have no problem with anyone slating Muslims however if one wants to challenge Islam then they should read the Koran and/or be open to a discussion undistorted by emotion or personal bias but unfortunately most of the time we get subjective views – anyway

Ali ibn Abi Talib once said: He who is aware of his own faults is oblivious of the faults of others.

Norm_uk

So in essence even most Muslims wouldn't be able to make a fair judgement on Islam then...
No one has been bullied. There have been a few sweeping general statements of a religious group and of a religion in particular that's all. If there's anything I've said that you disagree with I'm happy to discuss them. If you're going to say I'm a bully because of polemics that is of course your prerogative...false but yours to say. I noticed you didn't reply to my comment that you seem to feel any critique of Islam simply isn't acceptable (except of course by people who study under Shiekhs - which sounds limiting to say the least - and leaves out even early Arabs and Iranians who criticised Islam like Al Warraq. Al Razi, Al-Ma'arri etc...)
No, because you're going to use the fact that I haven't studied under a Sheikh as an argument closer...without I might add, actually responding to any specific point I may have said which I disagree with. That's not an honest way to debate...it's a way to discredit people using a frame of your own construction.

N.

Meow

I am completely mystified as to why one would need a sheikh to explain the koran and/or hadith. Is that the same as stating that you need a maharajah to explan the vedas or a duke to explain the bible?

One of the oddest claims I have seen on here and that's saying something.

WakeUp

I agree with you that you do not need to be guided through the texts by an 'expert'.

I do have a question though if you will indulge it, do you have any positives to say about Muslims or Islam? I don't know anything about you but I assume you live in a Muslim country and it would seem strange to me to live in a country or an area of the World when you appear to have nothing positive, indeed seemingly no repect for the dominant population.

Its almost akin to a Muslim living in the UK and not adopting the language and having nothing positive to say about the West.

Norm_uk

Positives about Muslims would be a long list - there are many wonderful Muslim people the same as any other group. There were many Muslims who helped Jews when they were forcibly ejected from all over the Arab world where they had lived longer than Arabs had writing when the modern state of Israel was formed. There many great, peaceful and wonderful Muslims in the UAE and all over the place...

Positive things about Islam? Harder question but yes there are positives. For example the Koran tells people to be polite and respectful. Both the Koran and Hadiths have rules of engagement in war which were very developed and civillised for the time they were written. Even critical websites like the "skepticsannotatedkoran" have a section on the “good stuff”. I think you’ll find far more positives in the Sermon on the Mount or the writings of Confucious however.
But this is like saying in a book like Mein Kampf I can find reasonable things I agree with so if I ignore that fact that other parts condone murder, racial discrimination and vehement anti-Jewishness so it’s fine to subscribe and live by it, which of course is nonsense.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. If you belong to any club, party or organisation with as much murder, hate and discrimination as religion you would resign in protest. To not do so would make you an enabler…a mafia wife if you will. There are truly peaceful religions in the world - a person of conscience would pick one of them if they really needed a religion to guide them...Jainism, Buddhism etc.
We have a number of Muslims like that though - who have gone as far as to blow us up and make threats to our way of life. This is after we give them passports, and treat them as fellow citizens, with access to our welfare state...which is a lot more than any expat gets in the UAE. Muslims who are not like this are obviously not a problem though any more than expats here who obey the law are not a problem even if they don’t agree with the laws (which would be most of us I imagine).

Perhaps a better question would be do I think Islam makes people better or not. My answer would be that with or without religion good people do good, and the bad do bad. But as Richard Dawkins said if you want the good to do bad you need religion.

N.

UKCityGent

Most mulims usually attend a mosque to learn to read/recite/understand the context of the Koran and are taught the ways of an Umah amongst other things from an early age with an Imam (including UK). Many carry on their studies further afterwards including university education level.

"There have been a few sweeping general statements of a religious group and of a religion in particular that's all." Consistent and persistant sweeping general statements damming a whole regilion is not acceptable as it leads people to consider you as an ignorant and small-minded.

"..comment that you seem to feel any critique of Islam simply isn't acceptable ..'' My critique is that you blame the failings and mis-represent of small incidents/urban myth and blow them totally out of proportion and use that ignorance to paintbrush a whole reglilion of approx 1.5billion people.

"That's not an honest way to debate...it's a way to discredit people using a frame of your own construction." Like most things Islam is a very deep and rich religion which as you have not studied or tried to understand but portray in the same light as BNP/EDL etc. Since these comments are similar to those groups I can make the conclusion that you support these parties ?

"No, because you're going to use the fact that I haven't studied under a Sheikh as an argument closer" - Thank you for answering that.

WakeUp

Thanks for your response Norm, I liked my question the way it was, it enabled you to say something positive about both Muslims and Islam. The reason I asked in this way was that I have only ever seen you post negative things. As you rightly point out there are good and bad things in everything (often the bad out weighs the good and vice versa), its not healthy to just focus on the negative IHMO.

"if you want the good to do bad you need religion."

I don't think that this is strictly true, Hitler did a great job of turning millions of good, ordinary Germans in the 30s and 40s into monsters, not exclusively with religion, although religion did play a part.

PS. This may be too personal so I completely understand if you don't address the question. I was wondering whether hardline atheists tell white lies to their children when they are growing up, ie. if the pet cat dies does it go to cat heaven, or the fable of Father Christmas, etc, or do they tell them kitty is dead and thats it and Father Christmas doesn't exist. You may not be in a position to answer this anyway but you appear the most likely.

Cheers,

WU

Norm_uk

Many Muslims also grow up in homes where other points are view are not taught outside the context of Islam (ie, seen through the eyes of Islam instead of through the eyes of whatever they happen to be looking at), and where leaving Islam would be unthinkable, socially unhealthy and in some cases physically dangerous, no?
Think of me what you will - it neither costs me money nor breaks my bones and proves little to nothing of your assumptions about me as a person. It does say a lot about you though for taking things personally enough to comment on me rather than what I say.
Evidently you haven't read my reply to WakeUp then. You can take isolated comments of mine if you like rather than asking me directly...

All Abrahamic religion has a rotten core. How on earth can the example of a man who raided caravans, had people beheaded and consumated a marriage with a nine year old be considered holy and good, not just in his time but for all time? And beyond that how is a system which proscribes punishments ranging from financial penalty all the way to the death penalty for "insulting" it and it's founder? What is holy, just and right about that? It sounds like Stalinism more than anything spiritual. I won't even start on the other Abrahamic religions...

Islam isn't all evil and bad by any means though, and most Muslims are not bad people any more than any group of people, and many Muslims are spiritual and kind people. But it's not the perfect system it claims to be and it is very aggressive in it's assertions around the world today and throughout history. That is not an attempt to compare it to the BNP or EDL (who are two very different groups as far as I understand at least in stated terms and intent) because neither the BNP or EDL's ideology caused a third of the Christian world to be annexed before the first crusade...or spread initially almost exclusively by stunning violence that would make the Mongols jealous.
Essentially you cannot comprehend how someone might study your belief and not come away accepting it. So you assert it must be because I didn't study it properly or perhaps didn't have the guidance of the right Imam or Sheikh.

If the BNP say something unfavourable about Islam and I say something unfavourable about Islam I'm a supporter of the BNP? If the EDL say they don't want Islamic law in their country and I say I don't want Islamic law in my country that makes me a supporter of theirs does it?

Isn't that a bit like saying all Muslims are terrorists or support beheadings? I certainly don't believe that, do you?

Again I think you are having trouble comprehending how someone can study Islam and not subscribe to it...to the point where you will accuse such a person of being part of racist or thuggish movements (Islam isn't even a race), hate mongering etc when they say things about it you don't like. The world I live in isn't so black and white unfortunately.
You're welcome.

N.

Norm_uk

No one has started a thread of the merits of Islam so I haven't commented on them. In fact you are one of the first people to ever ask me what positives I find in Islam which is quite refreshing. It's odd that I could bash a political party or philosophy as many do without anyone stating "all you do is say negative things about..." but when religion, and especially Islam comes into play suddenly I'm a hater

I think religion can and does overlap with politics, especially in the case of the Abrahamic religions.Also, some ideologies are followed "religiously" (Nazism, Communism, heck, even some football supports take things too seriously). I would include all those things in the term "religion" or expand the quote to say religion/ideology/belief.

Given atheist only means someone who rejects the idea of god and gods I'm not sure what a hardline atheist is - most people who call themselves atheists are actually agnostics who won't fill in the gaps of their knowledge with Abrahamic legend and myth...it's a more honest approach to reality.

Speaking for myself I raised my son from day one telling him the pagan origins of Christmas and how Father Christmas is an invention etc and that we celebrate it as a cultural tradition/show of unity and because it's fun (which I suspect is more truthful than many people who call themselves Christians do - I should know I was one for many years)...I certainly don't coddle his feelings when his pets die but explain this is part of life and a reminder to live well and properly with the time we have. I have no idea how other non-believers raise their children any more than I know how anyone outside my social circle raises their children.

N.

UKCityGent

i believe we were discussing the importance of why you should be knowledgeable of what your saying. Do you think that muslims do not read other views ?? "Muslims is the younger brother of Christian, who in turn is the younger brother of the Jew". In terms of the consumation of marriage of a 9 year old - which hadith or sura are you refering to as some of them are considered weak. Also please consider the understanding/meaning of the old arabic for "jariya". Please consider that the Koran was not formed in a chronolgical order as well therefore a timeline cannot be drawn to a calendar

Sorry I cannot finish the rest of this as i have a meeting

WakeUp

Good on you Norm thanks for your candor.

I think a bit of positivity goes along way every now and then. We see so much negativity in our media and on forums and threads such as this that it doesn't hurt to smell the roses every now and then (no offence intended to anyone just an observation). As I've said many times before I prefer to see similarities and positives. I don't deny that there is plenty of negativity about any of these subjects, but I am also aware that the negative side is much more visual than the positive.

I was involved on two religious building projects (Catholic) some years ago and having previously been an atheist I saw something in the people that I had close dealings with over a period of about 3 years (retired nuns) and younger active members, they were fascinating people and had alot to offer. Opened my eyes a little.

Have a good weekend.

WU