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Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12607200)
Nope, In my view, hard brexit is now the best of a bad bunch
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Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12607187)
One of my biggest fears if Brexit fails is the backlash from the Racist brexiteers who only voted on that basis. These are exactly the type of uneducated idiots who who could potentially take matters into their now hands - a truly terrifying prospect.
I'm also not looking forward to the smug crap that will emanate from the Remoaners about how they overturned democracy and the UK system. God, that brazilian woman will be on the TV for months :( They are going to be worse to live with than reformed smokers. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by nonthaburi
(Post 12607211)
she's quite fit for her age though.
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Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH
(Post 12607178)
If Brexit is cancelled after the past two and half years it would represent a key turning point in the history of the UK. The Suez of the 21st century. It would certainly be an international humiliation and worsening it is that any influence we might have had within the EU is already greatly diminished, the future role of the UK within the EU will move from second fiddle but moderating influence on the Germans/French to third or even fourth fiddle, always told to shut up and put up with it and despite any previous promises to be able to opt out of any further integration, we'd always be blackmailed into it with the taunts of go ahead and try to leave if you don't like it. Despite what some people want to pretend, the EU is not structured to be a multi-tiered entity with differing levels of integration. That model just does not work.
It would also have grave implications for the notion of democracy, the faith in the meaningful impact of voting and what that entails in British politics. But perhaps we really are moving into a post democratic world. The young generation seem to care great deal more for the hypothetical idea of being able to move around the EU freely (despite that only a small minority will ever do so in any meaningful sense) and aren't bothered by the realities of an opaque bureaucracy and unelected commission that rules the EU, which says a great about their attachment to notions of democracy. I've had a fair few discussions with younger Remainers and it's astonishing how quick they are to perceive the EU as a more morally just entity that would better protect their 'rights' than the British government. When I point out what the EU did to Greece, they just shrug it off, and when I point out that the UK has a much longer and older history of rights and democracy than anywhere in the EU, they just shrug it off. But I guess they are the future. If Brexit is indeed cancelled, I'm not quite sure how I will react. It's tempting to make declarations about emigrating elsewhere in the frustrated heat of the moment, though I'd still be sorely tempted to move to Australia or New Zealand mainly because I like the fresh optimism of these countries. I don't see any optimism in a Britain that failed to leave the EU. It'd just be more of the usual status quo but worsened by that the remain side, who are largely of a certain mindset and personality, would feel utterly justified in their contempt and even hatred of large swathes of the country and that would likely make things even more worse. Eh. We're too far out the door to do anything but let it ****ing slam us in the face when we turn back and frankly we should probably give it a boot and stroll away flipping the bird...we're going to need that sort of attitude to survive. Whilst i agree with MH that people in the UK are amazing at being able to make do or 'keep calm and carry on', the arrogance is astounding that we think we'll just waltz around like the biggest swinging dick in the playground when we haven't got the big kid stood behind us. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by Scamp
(Post 12607229)
I honestly can't see it being cancelled. I kind of want it to happen now anyway, **** it, why not? It's meant to be glorious and wonderful isn't it? Remaining part of it wouldn't be, like you say we'd be 4th or 5th or 6th fiddle in the game, we'd be behind the like of Italy and Portugal. BTW - I think Greece deserves what it gets largely, well not the country but a huge majority of the people are deserving of austerity.
We're too far out the door to do anything but let it ****ing slam us in the face when we turn back and frankly we should probably give it a boot and stroll away flipping the bird...we're going to need that sort of attitude to survive. Whilst i agree with MH that people in the UK are amazing at being able to make do or 'keep calm and carry on', the arrogance is astounding that we think we'll just waltz around like the biggest swinging dick in the playground when we haven't got the big kid stood behind us. Like I said before, had we started our negotiations from a sensible point (F&^% off, we're leaving now what will you give us?) we wouldn't be in this mess. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12607236)
Don't be totally surprised if May does pull some kind of rabbit out of the hat this week. Whilst you refer to the big boy behind us, EU are crapping themselves about a Hard Brexit and losing the only world class security team in Europe. They would also get cut off from a lot of US intelligence without us.
Like I said before, had we started our negotiations from a sensible point (F&^% off, we're leaving now what will you give us?) we wouldn't be in this mess. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12607187)
One of my biggest fears if Brexit fails is the backlash from the Racist brexiteers who only voted on that basis. These are exactly the type of uneducated idiots who who could potentially take matters into their now hands - a truly terrifying prospect.
I'm also not looking forward to the smug crap that will emanate from the Remoaners about how they overturned democracy and the UK system. God, that brazilian woman will be on the TV for months :( They are going to be worse to live with than reformed smokers. Personally they will probably just moan, turn their caps locks on and shout online or smash a few windows of JD sports |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by Scamp
(Post 12607242)
But that start point is absurd, isn't it? Who are we to think we can take what we want from a party we're leaving?
The allegory doesn't quite work, methinks. The EU isn't a party insomuch as a cartel. That's the blunt description of it, a more polite one is club. You're right that the club has rights to dictate its terms for access and membership. The mistake people in the UK made, both the Brexiteers and May and her negotiating team, was thinking in the typical British approach that things have changed, perhaps regrettably so, but let's build on that. The EU, however, does not see things as changing and seeking to build on that, for they are ideologues, it's their way or the door. No compromise. No flexibility. Their entire negotiation approach is to make sure Britain suffers outside the EU, they don't see it as a future between partners, but, using their terminology, between the EU and a third party. It's a breathtakingly arrogant attitude when you think about it. Not even the US dares to take that attitude with their big trade partners. Compromise and flexibility have been part of the British political mindset for generations. If Scotland had voted for independence, do you think we'd have treated Scotland the same way the EU has approached the negotiations? Hardly not. We'd be sorry but we'd have understood things have changed and wouldn't be seeking to punish Scotland and trying to force Scotland into a model that would always be inferior to being part of the UK. It'd be a fair divorce, and good luck and hope we remain good partners. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH
(Post 12607250)
What belongs to us?
The allegory doesn't quite work, methinks. The EU isn't a party insomuch as a cartel. That's the blunt description of it, a more polite one is club. You're right that the club has rights to dictate its terms for access and membership. The mistake people in the UK made, both the Brexiteers and May and her negotiating team, was thinking in the typical British approach that things have changed, perhaps regrettably so, but let's build on that. The EU, however, does not see things as changing and seeking to build on that, for they are ideologues, it's their way or the door. No compromise. No flexibility. Their entire negotiation approach is to make sure Britain suffers outside the EU, they don't see it as a future between partners, but, using their terminology, between the EU and a third party. It's a breathtakingly arrogant attitude when you think about it. Not even the US dares to take that attitude with their big trade partners. Compromise and flexibility have been part of the British political mindset for generations. If Scotland had voted for independence, do you think we'd have treated Scotland the same way the EU has approached the negotiations? Hardly not. We'd be sorry but we'd have understood things have changed and wouldn't be seeking to punish Scotland and trying to force Scotland into a model that would always be inferior to being part of the UK. It'd be a fair divorce, and good luck and hope we remain good partners. I don't see it as the EU punishing the UK. If the UK is being punished by anyone, the UK is punishing itself by making this decision and trying to out muscle and outgun a 'cartel' (frankly, you can call it whatever you want) that's far larger, far more powerful and far more important than any of it's component parts.....even the UK. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by Scamp
(Post 12607253)
It's literally both sides saying the exact same thing. The EU are arrogant and being bastards. The UK are arrogant and being bastards. Look how important we are to them - that's definitely being used both ways.
I don't see it as the EU punishing the UK. If the UK is being punished by anyone, the UK is punishing itself by making this decision and trying to out muscle and outgun a 'cartel' (frankly, you can call it whatever you want) that's far larger, far more powerful and far more important than any of it's component parts.....even the UK. I'm not the one who first called the EU a cartel. That term has been used for ages because it's the honest description of it. I'm also not quite sure how important the EU is. It functions very well as a closed shop economic market but as an international political entity I don't think it's notable. Economically the EU's growth rate has paled with other developed countries like the US. Britain's share of trade with the EU has steadily dropped across the past 20 years. Even as a political entity it's perpetually lurching from one crisis to another, Brexit is just the most prominent one of the moment and we often forget the EU is also battling Italy over its finances and has been battling Poland and Hungary for various things as well. It spectacularly mishandled the migrant crisis of two years ago. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by Scamp
(Post 12607242)
But that start point is absurd, isn't it? Who are we to think we can take what we want from a party we're leaving?
Its always been the case that any country in the EU can simply invoke article 50 and walk away. That’s the law. Yes it’ll p155 off the unelected expenses club in Brussels and DXB is right that they are crapping themselves if we get out and flourish as many others could follow our path leading to the coffin for the failed project. Economicaly and as someone who literally travels the world world all the time, there are far larger markets than EU which our skills as a nation could exploit. Europhiles are hoodwinked into thinking that the world ends at the European borders. Look what happened to the USA in the 80s and 90s when they had a similar view of North America. Decimation of their auto and steel industries! My major acticity at the moment is in global commodities trading and I promise you that I hear “Europe†far less than the growth markets. Growing global companies don’t like Europe due to the cost of doing business with a committee of 27 rule makers who try to dumb down everything to keep their jprocesses active and hence their jobs (power). The UK is in the worlds top 10 economies and will fair better without the restrictions of a closed economy. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by TheShed
(Post 12607338)
whats absurd? We are a premier league security operation and Europe’s relies extremely heavily on us most of the time. I’m talking intelligence and Willingness to send boots on the ground etc. Its always been the case that any country in the EU can simply invoke article 50 and walk away. That’s the law. Yes it’ll p155 off the unelected expenses club in Brussels and DXB is right that they are crapping themselves if we get out and flourish as many others could follow our path leading to the coffin for the failed project. Economicaly and as someone who literally travels the world world all the time, there are far larger markets than EU which our skills as a nation could exploit. Europhiles are hoodwinked into thinking that the world ends at the European borders. Look what happened to the USA in the 80s and 90s when they had a similar view of North America. Decimation of their auto and steel industries! My major acticity at the moment is in global commodities trading and I promise you that I hear “Europe†far less than the growth markets. Growing global companies don’t like Europe due to the cost of doing business with a committee of 27 rule makers who try to dumb down everything to keep their jprocesses active and hence their jobs (power). The UK is in the worlds top 10 economies and will fair better without the restrictions of a closed economy. For brexit to really work and to turn ourselves in the small economic powerhouse that we think we are, we would probably need to be much more pro-Europe business friendly, not less. The EMs won’t save us, they don’t need our services or anything we make, unless we can push them into civil wars and arm both sides. We need to to focus on the developed markets. The EMs don’t need a tax haven to hide profits, we have no commodities and our services are largely not needed outside the developed markets. The only developed markets worth dealing with will be the US or Europe. These people will consume our tech, premium engineering and financial services. Unless you want your kids making t-shirts we have nothing to offer the EMs. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
The solution is obvious Declare Martial Law with Rees Hyphen Mogg as our Supreme Leader. Execute all those who oppose his rule.
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Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by Millhouse
(Post 12607352)
Thats because you work in the emerging markets who would be consumers of commodities. You probably don’t hear US much either. If you sold services or finished goods the words would be different. For brexit to really work and to turn ourselves in the small economic powerhouse that we think we are, we would probably need to be much more pro-Europe business friendly, not less. The EMs won’t save us, they don’t need our services or anything we make, unless we can push them into civil wars and arm both sides. We need to to focus on the developed markets. The EMs don’t need a tax haven to hide profits, we have no commodities and our services are largely not needed outside the developed markets. The only developed markets worth dealing with will be the US or Europe. These people will consume our tech, premium engineering and financial services. Unless you want your kids making t-shirts we have nothing to offer the EMs. For the readers I deal with, the origination and consumption points are outside of Europe. Think US, China, Australia, Russia and S. America. Hardly a leading group of emerging markets. Financial services in general from London are included within my skills that U.K. can export. |
Re: Pound on 11 December
Originally Posted by DXBtoDOH
(Post 12607260)
Oh, the EU is punishing the UK. This is explicitly clear and you'd be blind not to see this. Even the EU has admitted this multiple times. They don't want Britain to set a precedent for other countries. A successful Britain outside the EU is badly damaging to the EU ideology that the future of Europe can only be successful through the EU rather than independent countries. They keep saying Britain can never be as successful outside the EU as within, as if they knew what the future entailed, and that speaks volumes of their arrogance and attitudes.
I'm not the one who first called the EU a cartel. That term has been used for ages because it's the honest description of it. I'm also not quite sure how important the EU is. It functions very well as a closed shop economic market but as an international political entity I don't think it's notable. Economically the EU's growth rate has paled with other developed countries like the US. Britain's share of trade with the EU has steadily dropped across the past 20 years. Even as a political entity it's perpetually lurching from one crisis to another, Brexit is just the most prominent one of the moment and we often forget the EU is also battling Italy over its finances and has been battling Poland and Hungary for various things as well. It spectacularly mishandled the migrant crisis of two years ago. I don't care what you or other people call the EU, cartel, expenses club, unelected *****, bureaucrats in Brussels. Who cares? I do disagree that the EU is not notable as a political entity....I think that's a bit odd, the EU's problem is that it's above a group which includes very powerful and notable individual parts. Brexit isn't the EU's fault is it? It was a decision made by the UK to leave. The onus isn't on Brussels to make life easy for the UK, or to pay us off or to give us special dispensation and access to all the goodies that membership pays for? We can't still be thinking like this can we? The finances of Italy :rofl:...I definitely blame the EU for that and not their monumental debt levels that they seem to want to avoid and blame everyone else for, or their inability to accept that such an aging population (like Japan for example) would be aided by migration (like Japan are heavily promoting at the moment, very big move) to actually start filling jobs and generating some worth. **** it, let them leave the Euro, set up a hugely devalued Lira and then try and pay some of those debts off! It would literally make the task many times harder. It's laughable to think all problems stem from Brussels, it's also laughable to think that the EU doesn't try to help nations. No, I'm not saying it's a perfect system or perfect group of people doing a perfect job but it's like pointing the finger at any government above you, it's just far too easy to blame everyone else. Individual responsibility doesn't evaporate when you're in the EU or any government or organisation or treaty or agreement, countries must remain responsible for their own bottom lines and provisions of the state for their people. The EU's work in bringing poorer European nations up to 'better' (can't think of the right word without it sounding condescending so apologies for this) levels and standards of living - that's no bad thing and whilst no, I don't think the UK or Germany or France should be ultimately responsible for bringing Romania into the 21st Century, but the work needs to be done otherwise we leave people outside a wall completely. It's not just 'poorer' nations who benefit, let's go back to Italy....the ECB has done a huge favour by continuing to buy Italian government bonds, but they can't do that forever. They stop? Italy has some potentially serious problems, everyone blames the EU...despite the fact they've been doing this for years and said it would have to slow down soon. It's mental. Italy's economy is the same size as the UK's I believe....that's huge, too big to fail? Can't sort it out for themselves? Germany can't be responsible for saving every country which can't be trusted with a coin purse. Compare the EU to the US, they're such vast places with many many people. The US however is one country with local identity at state level but ultimately one set of rules and one national weight to get behind. The EU isn't one country so how it competes as a collective against the might of one organised gigantic nation is actually quite impressive. Trying to get Portugal, Denmark and Italy to all work together towards 'European' goals is not going to be easy is it? I think it's quite impressive that for a half-in club where the commitment is clearly not total, the EU have had more quarters of higher GDP growth than the US since mid 2014. Anyway. You and I will continue to disagree over this but I enjoy the chat about it and your opinions, so thanks for continuing to post. :thumbup: |
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