One For Beardman

Old Dec 22nd 2008, 5:27 am
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So what does Beardman think about an 8yr old Saudi girl having to marry a 58yr old man and then not be allowed to divorce him until she reaches puberty? He says that Islam cares more about women than any western society does. Interesting...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081221/...d-3fd0ae9.html
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 6:27 am
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where is beardman anyway? is he still around or left us all to burn in hell?
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 6:28 am
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Originally Posted by lionheart View Post
So what does Beardman think about an 8yr old Saudi girl having to marry a 58yr old man and then not be allowed to divorce him until she reaches puberty? He says that Islam cares more about women than any western society does. Interesting...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081221/...d-3fd0ae9.html


Yes, there are some violations of customs and religion can not deny this

But Islam as a whole properly enacted laws protecting the rights of women and gave not give any religion or legislation by the

Islam a great religion, if maintained in humans, but unfortunately Muslims themselves have not received these arms Itbako Islam and not much of a surprise to some violations that we see in the man -

Such cases are rare Zkurtiha It exists in many communities

It is unfair that Muslims hold Islam wrong

Regards
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 8:00 am
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Originally Posted by HOSNI View Post
Yes, there are some violations of customs and religion can not deny this

But Islam as a whole properly enacted laws protecting the rights of women and gave not give any religion or legislation by the

Islam a great religion, if maintained in humans, but unfortunately Muslims themselves have not received these arms Itbako Islam and not much of a surprise to some violations that we see in the man -

Such cases are rare Zkurtiha It exists in many communities

It is unfair that Muslims hold Islam wrong

Regards

Koran, Quran, 4:34)
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 8:05 am
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Default Re: One For Beardman

Originally Posted by lionheart View Post
So what does Beardman think about an 8yr old Saudi girl having to marry a 58yr old man and then not be allowed to divorce him until she reaches puberty? He says that Islam cares more about women than any western society does. Interesting...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081221/...d-3fd0ae9.html
i wonder if there are any avenues of appeal in these courts? i'm fairly ignorant on the saudi judicial system, but isn't it possible to appeal a court ruling to the local then state majelis (spelling) and then higher? (governor to local prince, etc.)

i know it's not comparable to western standards here, but would be stunned if there's no ability to appeal this type of ruling... (i think the yemeni girl won her divorce on appeal)
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 8:29 am
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Originally Posted by Eva View Post
Koran, Quran, 4:34)
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 8:41 am
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Originally Posted by highways View Post
It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."


I sorry but this last paragraph contradicts most of your message.
We clearly interpret this differently and to me it is condoning violence(call it a light strike if you will).The demonstration of or even expression of violence towards a wife 'to discipline' her in an attempt to save a marriage is imho wrong.
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 8:52 am
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Default Re: One For Beardman

Originally Posted by lionheart View Post
So what does Beardman think about an 8yr old Saudi girl having to marry a 58yr old man and then not be allowed to divorce him until she reaches puberty? He says that Islam cares more about women than any western society does. Interesting...

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20081221/...d-3fd0ae9.html
it's her Father who should be shot
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 9:23 am
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Default Re: One For Beardman

Originally Posted by highways View Post
It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one's own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situation with care and wisdom. The word "beating" is used in the verse, but it does not mean "physical abuse". The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it "dharban ghayra mubarrih" which means "a light tap that leaves no mark". He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak, or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43)

It is also important to note that even this "light strike" mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding from sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it."
i think the basic point of disagreement seems to be around the acceptability of any type of physical violence, be it a 'light strike' or whatever. it seems that the modern christian values seem to come from a principal of 'turn the other cheek' and forgiveness to, in islam, and from what you've written, differing interpretations on acceptable levels of physical violence (from corporal to capital).

is there someone more enlightened on christian theolgy that can answer if there's any sort of 'condoned' violence either in dogma or equivalent?
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 10:03 am
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Originally Posted by still.unsure View Post
i think the basic point of disagreement seems to be around the acceptability of any type of physical violence, be it a 'light strike' or whatever. it seems that the modern christian values seem to come from a principal of 'turn the other cheek' and forgiveness to, in islam, and from what you've written, differing interpretations on acceptable levels of physical violence (from corporal to capital).

is there someone more enlightened on christian theolgy that can answer if there's any sort of 'condoned' violence either in dogma or equivalent?

Christianity is steeped in violence from the Crusades to Inquisition.It's dogma is full of contradiction like 'vengeance is mine' eye for an eye', 'turn the other cheek' 'love thy neighbour' etc..............
Violence is unacceptable and imho any religion which condones it is hypocrytical.HOSNI'S citation that 'Islam protects the rights of women'
for me is so not the case.One cannot defend the indefensible.How can beating or striking a woman...or enforcing beliefs by violence be honourable and Godlike behaviour?
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 10:42 am
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Originally Posted by Eva View Post
Christianity is steeped in violence from the Crusades to Inquisition.It's dogma is full of contradiction like 'vengeance is mine' eye for an eye', 'turn the other cheek' 'love thy neighbour' etc..............
Violence is unacceptable and imho any religion which condones it is hypocrytical.HOSNI'S citation that 'Islam protects the rights of women'
for me is so not the case.One cannot defend the indefensible.How can beating or striking a woman...or enforcing beliefs by violence be honourable and Godlike behaviour?
maybe that's where the difference is, from a non-muslim point of view, there's the aspiration to behave in a 'godlike' manor ('do unto others as you would have them do unto you...') whereas in the qu'uran there are certain acts under certain circumstances that are sanctioned by god, including violence.

if you come from a faith where you have been told that certain acts of violence are condoned by god, (and what's more, that it is the law (sharia) that condones it as well) it becomes very hard to see the religious point of view that other faiths have that all persons are created equal and that no one should ever be the subject of violence.

also, it seems very hard to try and extract cultural values from religion when it comes to the perspective of islam. for example, how much of wahibism is cultural and how much is strict interpretation of sharia, haditha and the qu'uran? and if this is the same three+ books that form the foundation of islam, how can another islamic state such as malaysia have different intrepretations on dress (degree of modesty) and such?
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 10:53 am
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Originally Posted by still.unsure View Post
maybe that's where the difference is, from a non-muslim point of view, there's the aspiration to behave in a 'godlike' manor ('do unto others as you would have them do unto you...') whereas in the qu'uran there are certain acts under certain circumstances that are sanctioned by god, including violence.
Show me a constitution where violence is forbidden under any circumstance. Quran is very clear when it comes to war, and circumstances where war is justified in Islam are no different to any modern constitution, or the logical thinking of human beings, to spell it out these circumstances are; when attacked, in retaliation to an attack, to defend the homeland and property and to stop injustice, . Do unto others as they do to you, is probably a more realistic and truthful description of the best of people, be they Muslim, Jew, Christians, Hindu, Buddhist Atheist, or whatever.

Its like an Emirati Friend in Oman told me, This region has problems, some countries more than others and Islam is sometimes abused by ignorance or malice, but if they don't like the smell of our house they can leave and go to one that smells nicer

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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 12:38 pm
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There are people who spread hate by different means. There are few things in my religion which might be alien to yours. In this case enquire and know why it is so. Don't ridicule. Respect is the way forward.
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 12:45 pm
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Originally Posted by Blue Cat View Post
it's her Father who should be shot
Someone finally getting to the point and talking sense, instead of using a girls suffering to fulfill their own thingy.
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Old Dec 22nd 2008, 12:52 pm
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Originally Posted by Worldismine View Post
Someone finally getting to the point and talking sense, instead of using a girls suffering to fulfill their own thingy.
what sort of man sells his daughter
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