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Norway shootings thread

Norway shootings thread

Old Jul 26th 2011, 7:14 am
  #76  
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by Ethos83
Sigh.

Glenn Beck was kicked off Fox earlier this year.

Somehow what a few people in Israel wrote on blogs or what one extremist commentor in the US said is being used as a representative for the standard viewpoint of an entire country.

Every single one of us on this thread (along with 99.99% of the world's population) agrees that the Norweigan shooter was a psycho. Let's not turn this into an excuse to vent one's agendas on anything. Is dragging up random blogs or a weirdo's comment a valid contribution to a discussion?
Beck still got a page on Fox even though Fox fired him.
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/glenn-beck/index.html

Beck is still quite a popular figure on the right. He does not represent Americas as Americans aren't all right wingers and he doesn't represent all right wigners either but Beck is popular with grass roots social conservative tea Party , pro war crowd. Recently Israel warmly welcomed Beck despite Beck getting into hot water with some American Jewish groups for what they said was anti-Semitic attacks on Soros and comparing Reform Judaism to Fundementalist Islam.
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 8:14 am
  #77  
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by WakeUp
I would never have described you as this based on the posts of yours that I have read on this forum. IMO you have far too many predjudices to be a libertarian.

Unless of course you are talking about a libertarian who can cherry pick who he allows to have their own liberty.
Prejudice means to pre-judge. A ruling without any evidence.

I don't pre-judge. I judge...

And I am also not a cultural relativist - some groups are generally better than others in their values and cultural achievements. Democracy is better than Theocracy. Common Law is better than Sharia or Jewish Law. Secular rule is better than religious rule. Gender equality under law is better than women needing guardians or 'protection' whether they like it or not. Responsible citizenship is better than being told what to do by a nanny state. Rule of law is better than tribalism and corruption. Fair play is better than favouritism. Regulated industry and banking is better than unbridled capitalism, yet capitalism is better than communism...I can on with this but i think I have illustrated my point on where I stand

I've also been clear plenty of times when making generalisations vs. making specific charges. You have barely read anything I post yet yourself have accused me of prejudice - which in itself is prejudice isn't it?

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Old Jul 26th 2011, 8:23 am
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by sherri
99% Muslims have suffered and are still suffering bigotry, when a few nutters out of the 1% decide to tackle the issues differently. And let me remind you that there are more than 1.8 billion Muslims around the world so your woe with regards to “comparisons” is nothing in comparison.
Most groups of people have suffered at one stage or another in their history. Muslims were on the dishing out end of brutality for a very long time, with Indians, Iranians, Europeans and Arabs on the receiving end. No one kills more Muslims than other Muslims it seems. No one oppresses them more than other Muslims from the looks of things. But they are not the victims of genocide like the Kurds, Jews and other groups in the world - indeed they sit as victorious conquerors who have held onto lands they invaded for a millenia.

But yes, a lot of Muslims who are reform minded, non-political and decent people are lumped together with the nutters who want to go back a thousand years. It's a sad reality in life that humans do stereotype...you and at least one other have done exactly the same about Zionists, anti-multiculturalists, critics of Islam and people on the political right. I've probably done it about the political left and Muslims as well as other groups....I suppose part of solving the problem is admitting there is one.

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Old Jul 26th 2011, 8:36 am
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by Norm_uk
Most groups of people have suffered at one stage or another in their history. Muslims were on the dishing out end of brutality for a very long time, with Indians, Iranians, Europeans and Arabs on the receiving end. No one kills more Muslims than other Muslims it seems. No one oppresses them more than other Muslims from the looks of things. But they are not the victims of genocide like the Kurds, Jews and other groups in the world - indeed they sit as victorious conquerors who have held onto lands they invaded for a millenia.

But yes, a lot of Muslims who are reform minded, non-political and decent people are lumped together with the nutters who want to go back a thousand years. It's a sad reality in life that humans do stereotype...you and at least one other have done exactly the same about Zionists, anti-multiculturalists, critics of Islam and people on the political right. I've probably done it about the political left and Muslims as well as other groups....I suppose part of solving the problem is admitting there is one.

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good post

just one tiny error with regards to muslims & genocide and I'm sure this was not deliberate, please do not forget the genocide of Bosnian Muslims in the heart of Europe.
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 8:55 am
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by Norm_uk
Prejudice means to pre-judge. A ruling without any evidence.

I don't pre-judge. I judge...

And I am also not a cultural relativist - some groups are generally better than others in their values and cultural achievements. Democracy is better than Theocracy. Common Law is better than Sharia or Jewish Law. Secular rule is better than religious rule. Gender equality under law is better than women needing guardians or 'protection' whether they like it or not. Responsible citizenship is better than being told what to do by a nanny state. Rule of law is better than tribalism and corruption. Fair play is better than favouritism. Regulated industry and banking is better than unbridled capitalism, yet capitalism is better than communism...I can on with this but i think I have illustrated my point on where I stand

I've also been clear plenty of times when making generalisations vs. making specific charges. You have barely read anything I post yet yourself have accused me of prejudice - which in itself is prejudice isn't it?

N.
I am highly prejudiced, usually in a very shallow and superficial way
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 10:50 am
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by sherri
good post

just one tiny error with regards to muslims & genocide and I'm sure this was not deliberate, please do not forget the genocide of Bosnian Muslims in the heart of Europe.
I think Muslim Empires have perpetrated more cultural 'genocide' than actual genocide (based purely on race/ethnicity)...their expansion has primarily been to fulfill the verse of making 'all religion for Allah', not wiping out people entirely. Dhimmis pay jizya tax and converts swell the ranks - the dead profit them nothing. It's been a successful system for that reason alone more than anything else I'd say.

The Serbs actions against Bosnians were deplorable but they were bound to happen and were a seed planted by the Ottomans long before when they invaded and 'mucked up' the Balkans. I personally support the Serbs more than Bosnians or Albanians and think they have been betrayed by their former allies in the West, who could have pressed a solution before a shot was fired. Then again we could have done that with Hitler but decided the best course of action was to sit back and watch him arm Germany, create a tyrannical state and annex his neighbours one by one

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Old Jul 26th 2011, 11:11 am
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by WakeUp
I am highly prejudiced, usually in a very shallow and superficial way
I'm only shallow and superficial when it comes to women

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Old Jul 26th 2011, 12:44 pm
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by Norm_uk
I think Muslim Empires have perpetrated more cultural 'genocide' than actual genocide (based purely on race/ethnicity)...their expansion has primarily been to fulfill the verse of making 'all religion for Allah',
The Serbs actions against Bosnians were deplorable but they were bound to happen N.
Presumably, now it’s West’s ambition to perpetrate cultural ‘genocide’ (based on race/ethnicity) and the heart of this expansion, genocide and propaganda is primarily to please the Darwinian’s of this of world (Shiva, I promise I’m not on crack – just a different perspective).

In my view, atheism is systematically weakening the Abrahamic faith groups. This whole shenanigan around Islam is part of a process to eliminate all faith groups. Christian and Jews are not as strong as they once were with regards to their faith so less of a threat and also when friends and family are involved then you tend to have a soft approach and Islam is the only religion (presumably because it’s young) with a “religious label” on the foreheads of its followers, plus less risk of a friend and/or family member retaliating to a hostile approach as they do not belong to this faith group. I see budhists, hindus etc “polluting” the “great western culture” in the same way as muslims but no one seems to be loathing them infact the Norway nutter and most western extremists groups consider them as their finest allies (Norm, what do you or “pure western culture” have in common with Buddhists and hindus which is absent in muslims?). This hypocrite policy is the main reason muslims believe that it’s a war against islam. Try bombing the Indians or Chinese and the world would see what carnage they’ll bring to our cities and homes. I am sick of the “culturalist” types to use culture as an excuse to target muslims. The Sharia law propaganda by muslims and subsequent opposition by the natives, I have not witness a single occurrence where a native has actually stood up and said guys we do not need sharia law as our law is comprehensive and protect the vulnerable & victims. It is pure from Culturally bastardised religious bigotry and value human life over tribal way of thinking. There is no constructive public debate and/or resolution about the issues we are facing in a global socio-economic system. We just seemed to be happy with wasting time on blame everything and anything to gain social and political aims and cause widespread chaos and bloodshed in the process.


If you support Serbs and think that their deplorable actions were due to betrayal by their former allies in the West then why do you question Iraqis and Afghani suicide bombers who also believe that their former western allies betrayed them by invading their countries and ruining their lives. I’ve said this before there is no evidence that modern day atrocities carried out by muslim extremists are linked to “Global Islamic expansion”, please provide solid evidence and not another Darwinian style theory.

Last edited by sherri; Jul 26th 2011 at 1:32 pm.
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 1:17 pm
  #84  
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by Norm_uk
Christianity has only ever truly been violent when it was in bed with government, and a huge chunk of Christianity's most violent episodes were defensive/retaliatory (like the Crusades).
Christianity has numerous shameful chapters. You're excusing these based on them being defensive or retaliatory?

That's exactly the same crap the islamic extremists come out with... "we're blowing up Europe/US cities because you're killing our people in Afghanistan/Iraq"

Sorry, doesn't wash with me.

Christians are more than capable of committing mass murder and atrocities for their religion, and have done so frequently during history, around the world.

If this Norwegian guy had been muslim, we'd get the usual crap about murderous religion... turns out he's christian and now we get a chorus of "no he's not, he's just a nutter".

Anyone who believes in religion quite frankly is a nutter in my book. I mean, just read the bible. It's a load of old magic-moonbeam shite, and people believe this stuff?
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 1:31 pm
  #85  
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by captainflack
Christianity has numerous shameful chapters. You're excusing these based on them being defensive or retaliatory?

That's exactly the same crap the islamic extremists come out with... "we're blowing up Europe/US cities because you're killing our people in Afghanistan/Iraq"

Sorry, doesn't wash with me.

Christians are more than capable of committing mass murder and atrocities for their religion, and have done so frequently during history, around the world.

If this Norwegian guy had been muslim, we'd get the usual crap about murderous religion... turns out he's christian and now we get a chorus of "no he's not, he's just a nutter".

Anyone who believes in religion quite frankly is a nutter in my book. I mean, just read the bible. It's a load of old magic-moonbeam shite, and people believe this stuff?
With reference to your last paragraph, I trust you are referring to all religions?

It is a mystery to me how anyone, with a half-decent education and any sense can believe in any religion. And those who suggest that atheism is the road to ruin, may even be more deluded than the rest.
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 1:45 pm
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by captainflack
Anyone who believes in religion quite frankly is a nutter in my book. I mean, just read the bible. It's a load of old magic-moonbeam shite, and people believe this stuff?
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 1:54 pm
  #87  
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by Meow
It is a mystery to me how anyone, with a half-decent education and any sense can believe in any religion.
And yet all those Oxbridge-educated archbishops, high priests and the like seem to get it. There again, I know some highly-educated people who think that football's a worthwhile spectator sport.

Take's all sorts, but I'll be buggered if I can work it out.
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 1:56 pm
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
And yet all those Oxbridge-educated archbishops, high priests and the like seem to get it....
Perhaps they are being pragmatic. It can after all be quite a well-paid and easy job..
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 2:01 pm
  #89  
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

It is a mystery to me how anyone, with a half-decent education and any sense can consistently despise others who have chosen to live differently (with regards to spirituality) than their own beliefs. Education, generally, make you civilised and perhaps gets you a better day job but it seems only the latter applies to most of the self-obsessed genus.

Last edited by sherri; Jul 26th 2011 at 2:05 pm.
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Old Jul 26th 2011, 2:07 pm
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Default Re: Norway shootings thread

Originally Posted by sherri
It is a mystery to me how anyone, with a half-decent education and any sense can consistently despise others who have chosen to live differently (with regards to spirituality) than their own beliefs. Education, generally, makes you civilised and perhaps gets you a better day job but it seems only the latter applies to most of the self-obsessed genus.
Do you really only come on this forum to pick arguments and twist other people's comments?

No one has said anything about despising, so perhaps you might want to examine the chips on your shoulders?
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