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Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Old Jun 4th 2014, 10:17 pm
  #106  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
That is because you do not debate, you troll.
Here is a question you've avoided (as per your usual 'debating' position) you state that muslims have examined the 'evidence' and have come to the unmistakable conclusion that a supernatural being created the earth. From that base assumption follows the rest of the house of cards. Nothing comes from nothing I believe was the terminology used.
My question is where did the supernatural being come from?
That is an easy one mike. Your question is simply wrong because you are using the word ‘from’ which implies space, and Space does not contain the creator of space. He has to be outside the physical world. You see, Time and Space existence of ours is just like any other existence in that it must have an initiator that exist in a different superior existence, much like the existence (or the life if we can call it) of Micky mouse coming from another existence, a world containing human spirits.
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Old Jun 4th 2014, 11:07 pm
  #107  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by redShark View Post
That is an easy one mike. Your question is simply wrong because you are using the word ‘from’ which implies space, and Space does not contain the creator of space. He has to be outside the physical world. You see, Time and Space existence of ours is just like any other existence in that it must have an initiator that exist in a different superior existence, much like the existence (or the life if we can call it) of Micky mouse coming from another existence, a world containing human spirits.
I'm quite content with that explanation. I don't agree with it, but I can accept it as a philosophy. What I can't accept is you, and others like you, insisting that other people (your children, for example) must agree with you. That's sheer ****ing arrogance.
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 1:35 am
  #108  
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Wink Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by redShark View Post
The purpose is to function in accordance with the harmony on earth. Every creatures role on earth is to work towards the integrity of this harmony. The difference is that we human were given the choice to screw it up or follow the guidance from the creator of this harmony. That is why according to the universal law of equilibrium there will be punishments for those who screw it up
We are supposed to live in peace and harmony but must, by design, is a fight just to survive in this savage world? Your god is very cruel putting humans into a situation where the system he designs precludes us from attaining the perfection he allegedly intends for us to seek.

Also I raise the point he is acting indifferently to belief. He does not reward good behaviour or punish poor behaviour, people who believe and pray continue to live in desperate poverty while those who do not often live at a western standard. The Hindus who pray to many gods are just as well rewarded as their fellow countrymen who pray to just one. Clearly your god does not care what you believe or if you pray, he is at best indifferent to humans in this scenario. Of course religious texts tell us otherwise but aren't gods actions towards us more important than the words of a dusty old religious script?
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 5:45 am
  #109  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by redShark View Post
Your question is simply wrong because you are using the word ‘from’ which implies space, and Space does not contain the creator of space. He has to be outside the physical world. You see, Time and Space existence of ours is just like any other existence in that it must have an initiator that exist in a different superior existence,
OK so lets see if I got this right. You assume (unless you have some evidence which you'd care to share?) that there is a 'something/initiator' which exists outside of our physical world in a 'different superior existence'. Ignoring the question of why you (and I presume all muslims) believe this, where did the 'different superior existence' come from, how does it exist?
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 6:06 am
  #110  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
OK so lets see if I got this right. You assume (unless you have some evidence which you'd care to share?) that there is a 'something/initiator' which exists outside of our physical world in a 'different superior existence'. Ignoring the question of why you (and I presume all muslims) believe this, where did the 'different superior existence' come from, how does it exist?
He is referring to God. The same one that the Christians believe in.
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 8:21 am
  #111  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
Another defense of your stance by attacking something else.

Why not actually answer the charges?
If I may make so bold, it seems that most believers are interested in finding good reasons to hold on to their beliefs, rather then finding out if they hold their beliefs for good reasons.

There are people who have trouble telling a rational argument from an irrational one. Not because they are ignorant or stupid, but because they evaluate data as "useful" or "useless" rather then "true" or "false". Useful data tends to be one that justifies their beliefs. They seem almost uninterested in the validity of information. They recognize contradictions and logical flaws in their beliefs, but don't seem to acknowledge these as important factors. Sharkie falls within that group who are remarkably good at protecting those beliefs from critical examination - especially as those beliefs have been long-held, publicly professed and are shared by many others in his social network.

Skepticism, critical thinking, logical reasoning and science are the most consistently reliable tools we have for discerning reality, but employing their use means using your brain on your long held beliefs.

Last edited by mikewot; Jun 5th 2014 at 8:25 am.
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 9:16 am
  #112  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
Adding meaning and purpose based on the claimed revelations to an illiterate man in the poorer and less educated parts of the middle east 1400 years ago is almost beneath commenting on. Suffice to say that why did this supreme being sit back for at least 100,000 years while homo sapiens lived often brutal and short lives, dying from their rotting teeth and being prey to other creatures and each other then suddenly, shortly after the dawn of the agricultural era of the ferticle crescent decide to intervene by giving it's will for humanity to the most primitive parts of the middle east, not to China or India where learning and civilisation were flourishing, but to superstitious herdsmen and nomads. More incredible is how these revelations were not just good for that time but are apparently absolutes that apply for all time regardless of how far ahead humanity goes in it's learning.
This is my main argument when we have gone around in circles. I first heard this exact same argument from the prophet Christopher Hitchens (PBUH)

Its funny how these 'Charlatans' all popped up in the same place at a similar time.
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 2:31 pm
  #113  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
So it's logically because you're using the teleological argument of design? This is now philosophical not scientific so I'll switch to suit your jumping around. To quote the great Britain and Scotsman David Hume "A very small part of this great system, during a very short time, is very imperfectly discovered to us; and do we thence pronounce decisively concerning the origin of the whole?".

The 'creation' of the world and universe cannot be shown to be analogous to the creation of a human artefact, such as a cartoon - especially since Micky Mouse isn't sentient. If the universe is improbable without a creator is just as improbable with one for the creator takes the mantle of improbability away from the creation. God becomes the ultimate improbability. We are still learning how it all works and you are more concerned with 'meaning' and 'design' and you think these things are best expressed via a specific monotheist religion you were born and raised into.
N.
So you’ve failed to come with an example! Still you and Mike continue to live under the illusion that you are scientific in your approach. My understanding of science is that to make a claim about something you have to bring up an evidence about it in a form of a laboratory experiment, or a mathematical model, or at least point us to a phenomenon that can show an equivalence. You have done neither of them. Let me show you what I’d expected from you to do but unfortunately you failed. When a scientist wanted to explain and prove the idea of the big ban what he did was he stood up and held a glass cup in his hand and he then let it drop. He proved to the spectators that the phenomenon of the shuttered glass look very much like the scattering of the planets in the universe. This is the approach I did when I pointed out the example of Micky Mouse, so who are the most scientific in their approach, the followers of the Quran or the others???

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
Adding meaning and purpose based on the claimed revelations to an illiterate man in the poorer and less educated parts of the middle east 1400 years ago is almost beneath commenting on. Suffice to say that why did this supreme being sit back for at least 100,000 years while homo sapiens lived often brutal and short lives, dying from their rotting teeth and being prey to other creatures and each other then suddenly, shortly after the dawn of the agricultural era of the ferticle crescent decide to intervene by giving it's will for humanity to the most primitive parts of the middle east, not to China or India where learning and civilisation were flourishing, but to superstitious herdsmen and nomads. More incredible is how these revelations were not just good for that time but are apparently absolutes that apply for all time regardless of how far ahead humanity goes in it's learning.
N.
I think I have answered that question before. when a divine and final concept is needed to be delivered to the humans , the best place to put it in is a primitive environment because it will have the least chance of getting contaminated with other false man made ideologies. No one wants to put a piece of meat in a place full of harmful bacterias, you rather put it in a dry and clean place. Man made ideologies to a human’s mind are as harmful as bad bacterias to his body. Arabia at that time was the most primitive environment in the middle east. Simple logic




Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
One cannot prove faith wrong. A pre-assumed delusion that only considers evidence that supports it's claims is not reason, science or true.
N.
No, no, there is a huge difference. If you take the bible challenge you will win over it, because you can disprove it in many concepts, least the age of the earth being 6000 years only. And it is even easier to win the old testament challenge because you can easily prove that Semitic people are not necessarily the superior race.
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 2:33 pm
  #114  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by mikewot View Post
OK so lets see if I got this right. You assume (unless you have some evidence which you'd care to share?) that there is a 'something/initiator' which exists outside of our physical world in a 'different superior existence'. Ignoring the question of why you (and I presume all muslims) believe this, where did the 'different superior existence' come from, how does it exist?

I told you the creator is outside the physical world so your laws of physics do not apply on him, which means your mathematics can not realize him, yes mathematics can give indication but there is no way it can describe him, so how can you expect even to imagine how he is????
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 2:38 pm
  #115  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by britexpat76 View Post
This is my main argument when we have gone around in circles. I first heard this exact same argument from the prophet Christopher Hitchens (PBUH)

Its funny how these 'Charlatans' all popped up in the same place at a similar time.
As ever, very flimsy arguments you have, not surprising since you are a follower of Christopher Hitchens. Your point about the homo sapiens does not actually hold water when you put it to Quran because Quran stated clearly that since the time of Adam himself no single community existed on earth without the message of Islam was sent to them through a prophet. Therefore the existence of all those religions in the world can be explained to be revelations from the creator but they got contaminated by man made ideologies that creeped into their basic teachings. Christianity is a good example
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 2:40 pm
  #116  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by Charismatic View Post
We are supposed to live in peace and harmony but must, by design, is a fight just to survive in this savage world? Your god is very cruel putting humans into a situation where the system he designs precludes us from attaining the perfection he allegedly intends for us to seek.

Also I raise the point he is acting indifferently to belief. He does not reward good behaviour or punish poor behaviour, people who believe and pray continue to live in desperate poverty while those who do not often live at a western standard. The Hindus who pray to many gods are just as well rewarded as their fellow countrymen who pray to just one. Clearly your god does not care what you believe or if you pray, he is at best indifferent to humans in this scenario. Of course religious texts tell us otherwise but aren't gods actions towards us more important than the words of a dusty old religious script?

Blame no body but yourself for this confusion. You are the one who decide to put himself under the illusion that this life is the ultimate heaven. The creator has communicated to mankind time and time again that haven is not on earth.
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 2:42 pm
  #117  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
He is referring to God. The same one that the EARLIER Christians believe in.
Corrected that for you
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 3:15 pm
  #118  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by redShark View Post
Therefore the existence of all those religions in the world can be explained to be revelations from the creator but they got contaminated by man made ideologies that creeped into their basic teachings. Christianity is a good example
You know what, you cannot reason with an idiot - Its a fact. If you are so blinded to the real world we live in where people use religion as a reason to blow themselves and other innocent people up, Use religion as a reason to refuse life saving medical procedures or as an explanation as to why its fine to kill someone for deciding they dont believe the fairy tales anymore - Then good luck to you.

I do have one suggestion though. Instead of wasting valuable time here talking to free thinking mainly professional people why don't you pray for famine to end, ask your god to remove Cancer from children and while you are at it ask him to make sure your poor 'brothers' in third world countries have the chance for a proper education and a chance in life.

Just let me know how those prayers go....................
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 3:51 pm
  #119  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by redShark View Post
So you’ve failed to come with an example! Still you and Mike continue to live under the illusion that you are scientific in your approach. My understanding of science is that to make a claim about something you have to bring up an evidence about it in a form of a laboratory experiment, or a mathematical model, or at least point us to a phenomenon that can show an equivalence.
You have a very peculiar and simplistic view of science which is incorrect.
Originally Posted by redShark View Post
When a scientist wanted to explain and prove the idea of the big ban what he did was he stood up and held a glass cup in his hand and he then let it drop. He proved to the spectators that the phenomenon of the shuttered glass look very much like the scattering of the planets in the universe.
Errant nonsense, as Stephen Hawkins and a host of other scientists have proven. You need to read Big Bang 101. As I've said before and I'll reiterate it now, you are simply a troll.
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Old Jun 5th 2014, 3:54 pm
  #120  
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Default Re: Malay Muslim groups to wage 'jihad' against Cadbury.

Originally Posted by redShark View Post
I told you the creator is outside the physical world so your laws of physics do not apply on him, which means your mathematics can not realize him, yes mathematics can give indication but there is no way it can describe him, so how can you expect even to imagine how he is????
OK so you are telling us, in point of fact, that we humans do not know, cannot know 'what' your superior being is. Therefore how can you consider that this superior being created everything, what line of reasoning leads you to this conclusion? You have quite simply made the whole thing up, you have told us so in as many words.


Those who come to a conclusion by a process without rational, logical thought, cannot be dissuaded from that conclusion by logical, rational argument.

Last edited by mikewot; Jun 5th 2014 at 4:00 pm.
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