The Jubilee was a scam
Jun 13th 2012, 11:22 am
#61
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,107
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
Oh I see............ "I'm all right, Mick"? Good grief...........
Better off in it than outside it? You have to be joking....... wait a minute - oh I see what you mean; your industries - particularly construction and agriculture - supported by that well-known benevolent society, the Anglo-German Taxpayers Association.....
The stupidity and greed of Irish politicians has a lot to do with this: they should never, ever have joined the euro. They brought the country down as it suffered with low interest rates, a false boom and a massive bust. But look at what the Eurocrats did in response to them: what they were told as their government was collapsing was that it would be 'inappropriate' for them to have a general election. In fact EU Commissioner Olly Rehn said they had to agree to a budget first before they were allowed to have a general election. That's what I meant by a denial of democracy (Weasel?).
It's pretty clear that the Irish people were conned/deluded by the 'Yes' campaign's promises of investment, while being bullied by economic threats. True, a majority of the (very low) turnout voted 'Yes' but that only handed more power over the country to the European Commission and ECJ. What's that about better to be a free poor man than a rich slave? (or something)
I think that it has been the whole series of Yes votes to EU treaties which have led Ireland to its current dire economic circumstances. Britain did it as well, that's true - handing over its fisheries for the benefit of France and Spain. At Maastricht, Ireland handed over its currency and control of its own interest rates which gave it a boom leading to the bust. At Nice it lost control of its borders and immigration policy and at Lisbon it entered into a new Act of (Political) Union, ceding huge power to EU institutions.
I don't get it.... you're financially better off? In a strictly limited definition, yes in some ways..... but you've given up so many of the things that define a country's sovereignty and independence.
And the euro will not survive - there is no way that the current path is viable or sustainable. If Greece falls away (the likeliest first casualty) who is next? The markets (guilty, m'Lud) will pick off the next weakest (look at what happened to Spanish bonds today) - sooner or later, that's going to be your lot.
You think it's a good thing? Shame - there are far far more important things than the illusion of wealth.
Better off in it than outside it? You have to be joking....... wait a minute - oh I see what you mean; your industries - particularly construction and agriculture - supported by that well-known benevolent society, the Anglo-German Taxpayers Association.....
The stupidity and greed of Irish politicians has a lot to do with this: they should never, ever have joined the euro. They brought the country down as it suffered with low interest rates, a false boom and a massive bust. But look at what the Eurocrats did in response to them: what they were told as their government was collapsing was that it would be 'inappropriate' for them to have a general election. In fact EU Commissioner Olly Rehn said they had to agree to a budget first before they were allowed to have a general election. That's what I meant by a denial of democracy (Weasel?).
It's pretty clear that the Irish people were conned/deluded by the 'Yes' campaign's promises of investment, while being bullied by economic threats. True, a majority of the (very low) turnout voted 'Yes' but that only handed more power over the country to the European Commission and ECJ. What's that about better to be a free poor man than a rich slave? (or something)
I think that it has been the whole series of Yes votes to EU treaties which have led Ireland to its current dire economic circumstances. Britain did it as well, that's true - handing over its fisheries for the benefit of France and Spain. At Maastricht, Ireland handed over its currency and control of its own interest rates which gave it a boom leading to the bust. At Nice it lost control of its borders and immigration policy and at Lisbon it entered into a new Act of (Political) Union, ceding huge power to EU institutions.
I don't get it.... you're financially better off? In a strictly limited definition, yes in some ways..... but you've given up so many of the things that define a country's sovereignty and independence.
And the euro will not survive - there is no way that the current path is viable or sustainable. If Greece falls away (the likeliest first casualty) who is next? The markets (guilty, m'Lud) will pick off the next weakest (look at what happened to Spanish bonds today) - sooner or later, that's going to be your lot.
You think it's a good thing? Shame - there are far far more important things than the illusion of wealth.
Your repetition of the standard UKIP/Ganley tropes doesn't make them any more valid. I'm not going to argue the detail of your points execept to point out two pieces of fact that undermine your thesis completely. The EIU, hardly a Euro-sympathiser, has determined that the low interest rates (from Euro membership) had only a minor impact on the boom (less than 3% of GDP when construction commanded almost 25% of GDP at the worst of it): domestic expansionary policies cooked up in the Galway races tent between ministers and developers were the main source of the bubble along with nod-and-wink approved ridiculously lax banking practices. Neither had anything to do with the EU (in fact the Commission cautioned the Irish government about both).
Second is that Ireland had record exports in 2011. Yes 2011. The core of our economy, built up in the 1990's with some support from the EU regional funds (contributing less than 0.5% of GDP pa during the period when economic growth averaged above 9% pa, again according to the EIU), is strong. Domestic demand has been hammered by the impact of paying back the bank debts. That's what has gone wrong - and it was all our own fault and easy as it would be to blame it all on Europe we know better than to delude ourselves. Sure we're not entirely happy with the conditions of the bail-out and have lots of other gripes about the EU but we are not obsessed with clinging on to stupid outdated measurement systems and other emblems of faded imperial grandeur. So we just get on with it.
According to you we are all too stupid to see through this Euro-conspiracy and are a bunch of gullible eejits. Sorry that we don't agree with your assessment of the situation but I'm happy being a gullible eejit if it means I can be left in peace from your condescending Murdochian distortions.
For Ireland, being a member of the EU enabled us finally to take our seat at the table of nations and step out of the colonial shadow of Britain. For that alone it is critical to our history and development as a nation in a way that could never be understood by those steeped in a Tory mindset of Europe as the enemy to be resisted (and what a disaster for Europe that secular, liberal, meritocratic Napoleon was defeated by those same regressive monarchist forces of Britain, Prussia and Austria - at least the last two have largely shed those shackles).
And the demise of the Euro has been confidently predicted ever since it launched. Remember the glee when it hit $0.87? What you completely fail to see, being blinded by your anti-Europe reflex, is the indomitable will of most of the peoples and governments of Europe to sustain it. Perhaps the "markets" will prevail but every chorus of the shrill barrow-boys of the financial markets announcing the Euro's collapse only hardens that resolve further. Just look at how public opinion in Germany has shifted - and I expect the Greek election to reflect that sentiment also.
Jun 13th 2012, 11:23 am
#62
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,107
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
Link me to this claim you are making about Olly Rehn and how he scheduled our elections. You are being incredibly naive here if you think that Cameron or any incumbent government would not choose a time of election to suit him or his party. Denial of democracy indeed.
Also European votes have always had low turnouts historically, this is nowhere near the lowest turnout and in fact close to the average.
The main thrust I see from your post of this idea of losing sovereignty and independence which is in my opinion working against the idea of the EU in the first place. We chose to embrace the idea, and participate whole heartedly rather than grab from the sidelines or use the EU as a bogeyman for local election purposes or contrarian points of view to the incumbents (save our pound campaign for example which was pitched xenophobically rather than economically)
Gave up our borders in Nice you say? We not only gave up our borders, we chose further to allow all EU members to work in Ireland without restriction, one of only two countries to do so.
If your points are going to be framed in this fashion you have missed the idea of a European Union completely
Also European votes have always had low turnouts historically, this is nowhere near the lowest turnout and in fact close to the average.
The main thrust I see from your post of this idea of losing sovereignty and independence which is in my opinion working against the idea of the EU in the first place. We chose to embrace the idea, and participate whole heartedly rather than grab from the sidelines or use the EU as a bogeyman for local election purposes or contrarian points of view to the incumbents (save our pound campaign for example which was pitched xenophobically rather than economically)
Gave up our borders in Nice you say? We not only gave up our borders, we chose further to allow all EU members to work in Ireland without restriction, one of only two countries to do so.
If your points are going to be framed in this fashion you have missed the idea of a European Union completely
And you didn't even pick him up on that crass Mick bit...
Jun 13th 2012, 11:55 am
#63
Knee deep and rising
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,007
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
. Aside from the larger picture of the EU I struggle with this idea that full financial independence would have helped us. Taking the UK as a case in point (as its out of the Euro), they have :Aside from total debt:
A budget deficit of 130 Billion roughly (9% of GDP)
A quantitative easing program (used to be called printing money in the Weimar republic days)
I don't want to single this out as an Irish/UK debate but purely for comparison cases. Lest we also forget the similar property crash around from 1989, and the similar IMF loans in 1976 it seems being out of the EU is not the critical factor here, regarding illusion of wealth.
Last edited by weasel decentral; Jun 13th 2012 at 11:58 am.
Jun 13th 2012, 11:57 am
#64
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
For Ireland, being a member of the EU enabled us finally to take our seat at the table of nations and step out of the colonial shadow of Britain. For that alone it is critical to our history and development as a nation in a way that could never be understood by those steeped in a Tory mindset of Europe as the enemy to be resisted (and what a disaster for Europe that secular, liberal, meritocratic Napoleon was defeated by those same regressive monarchist forces of Britain, Prussia and Austria - at least the last two have largely shed those shackles).
Ireland isn't a booming market across the economy today. It is not completely stable and it is a cause for concern.
Joining in with the Euro to create opportunity is one thing, but I personally do not believe that the majority saw it as much other than a way to try and distance themselves from the UK.
ABE indeed.
Jun 13th 2012, 12:07 pm
#65
Knee deep and rising
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,007
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
We have never defined ourselves as Not Being English but as Irish, until people understand that they will struggle also to understand the idea of Scottish independence .
Jun 13th 2012, 12:18 pm
#66
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
Whatever element of truth is in that statement, is only in the fact the we wanted to be part of Europe in our own right. It was a positive vote of inclusion to Europe not a rejection of Britain (who are still our biggest trading partner and closest tie)
We have never defined ourselves as Not Being English but as Irish, until people understand that they will struggle also to understand the idea of Scottish independence .
We have never defined ourselves as Not Being English but as Irish, until people understand that they will struggle also to understand the idea of Scottish independence .
I think the Scottish quest for independence is not similar to the Irish train of thought. I think the attitudes of Scots towards the English is a whole different level.
Jun 13th 2012, 12:43 pm
#67
**** it we'll do it live
Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 7,892
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
Whatever element of truth is in that statement, is only in the fact the we wanted to be part of Europe in our own right. It was a positive vote of inclusion to Europe not a rejection of Britain (who are still our biggest trading partner and closest tie)
We have never defined ourselves as Not Being English but as Irish, until people understand that they will struggle also to understand the idea of Scottish independence .
We have never defined ourselves as Not Being English but as Irish, until people understand that they will struggle also to understand the idea of Scottish independence .
exactly
Jun 13th 2012, 1:02 pm
#68
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
I have no problem with the concepts of either Irish or Scottish independence (although the thought that you are more independent wedded to Brussels than you would be if you were wedded to Westminster is bizarre). Go for it.
You are entitled to your view (which I would describe as proudly Irish, in a way that does not entirely disprove my point). But I'll wager a euro - no, make that a US dollar please - that most people (in ALL EU countries, not just Ireland) did not understand fully what they were voting for in the Nice and Lisbon referenda. And I still don't get why you were happy that you were 'invited' to vote again when the first vote didn't go entirely to plan. Have you checked how much EU funding was put behind the YES campaigns?
Anyway, the euro will sink or swim. As someone with over thirty years of experience in the foreign exchange markets, I will state (and have done so before - on the record) that the creation of the euro was the single worst economic (because it wasn't economic) decision in history. Anywhere. Ever. For the Irish to say they have benefitted from it was what prompted my 'mick' comment (apologies) - a generation of people from across Europe who are now in their 20s and 30s and who may never get a job (they haven't so far, in many cases) might take issue.
The euro falling to 0.87? Irrelevant. Any currency's exchange rate can be 'strong' or 'weak' at any time, for all sorts of reasons. Your precious euro is under threat because there is no logical reason why, say, Germany and Greece should have the same external exchange rate with, say, the US, and market forces are proving the point.
Merkel said the euro was 'not reversible' - stupid, cowardly woman. She has the opportunity to make a piece of history - instead she will be consigned to its dustbin.
You are entitled to your view (which I would describe as proudly Irish, in a way that does not entirely disprove my point). But I'll wager a euro - no, make that a US dollar please - that most people (in ALL EU countries, not just Ireland) did not understand fully what they were voting for in the Nice and Lisbon referenda. And I still don't get why you were happy that you were 'invited' to vote again when the first vote didn't go entirely to plan. Have you checked how much EU funding was put behind the YES campaigns?
Anyway, the euro will sink or swim. As someone with over thirty years of experience in the foreign exchange markets, I will state (and have done so before - on the record) that the creation of the euro was the single worst economic (because it wasn't economic) decision in history. Anywhere. Ever. For the Irish to say they have benefitted from it was what prompted my 'mick' comment (apologies) - a generation of people from across Europe who are now in their 20s and 30s and who may never get a job (they haven't so far, in many cases) might take issue.
The euro falling to 0.87? Irrelevant. Any currency's exchange rate can be 'strong' or 'weak' at any time, for all sorts of reasons. Your precious euro is under threat because there is no logical reason why, say, Germany and Greece should have the same external exchange rate with, say, the US, and market forces are proving the point.
Merkel said the euro was 'not reversible' - stupid, cowardly woman. She has the opportunity to make a piece of history - instead she will be consigned to its dustbin.
Jun 13th 2012, 2:14 pm
#69
Knee deep and rising
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,007
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
No longer a concept bro, approaching a century of existence.
Yes and how they are funded is that equal airtime and money must be allocated to both sides of the debate. All government issued information on the debate can only be factual.
Hard to prove this is in any way related to the EU, however the average is 23% (high of 50% in Spain and Greece, low of 10% in Germany. UK at 21% and US at 19%)
This is interesting and I see the point, but if I was to break the US into its 50 states from very poor to very rich, each with different state tax rates and state laws then I am surprised that this model works in the US. It should fail there also as they have as much disparity within their borders as the EU does.
I am curious to the logical reason why it does work in America, looking at it coldly it seems like it shouldn't
Have you checked how much EU funding was put behind the YES campaigns?
a generation of people from across Europe who are now in their 20s and 30s and who may never get a job (they haven't so far, in many cases) might take issue.
There is no logical reason why, say, Germany and Greece should have the same external exchange rate with, say, the US, and market forces are proving the point.
I am curious to the logical reason why it does work in America, looking at it coldly it seems like it shouldn't
Jun 13th 2012, 2:16 pm
#70
Bored liberal
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Over there ----->
Posts: 13,713
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
I don't accept that comparing the US to Europe is a valid argument. Apples and pears.
Jun 13th 2012, 3:26 pm
#75
Nothing doin' here
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,508
Re: The Jubilee was a scam
And Greece are going out of the Euro - for the first time...
