Israeal and poor palastinains
#16
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
[QUOTE=shiva;7114218]
I'd sum it up with this parable:
Little bloke walks into a bar and proceeding to flick the ear of the biggest bloke he can find because he is sitting in "his" bench (he sat there, his father sat there etc.), big bloke asks him to stop and find another bench or share but does nothing else.
So the little bloke slaps him around the head. Big bloke just asks him to stop, confirms with barman that him sitting there is OK and issues a stern "or next time...".
Little bloke pours his drink over his head. Big bloke clobbers little bloke.
QUOTE]
one small problem, what happens in the parable when the little bloke used to own the bench, live under the bench and make his livelyhood from said bench........wouldnt you ask for your bench back?
The little bloke never owned the bench - it was passed from owner to owner for a long time. And many of the little blokes came to work on the bench fairly recently.
Given the little blokes family and friends have more than 10% of the planet's land I can't see why it's so hard for them to find another bench and live in peace.
N.
I'd sum it up with this parable:
Little bloke walks into a bar and proceeding to flick the ear of the biggest bloke he can find because he is sitting in "his" bench (he sat there, his father sat there etc.), big bloke asks him to stop and find another bench or share but does nothing else.
So the little bloke slaps him around the head. Big bloke just asks him to stop, confirms with barman that him sitting there is OK and issues a stern "or next time...".
Little bloke pours his drink over his head. Big bloke clobbers little bloke.
QUOTE]
one small problem, what happens in the parable when the little bloke used to own the bench, live under the bench and make his livelyhood from said bench........wouldnt you ask for your bench back?
Given the little blokes family and friends have more than 10% of the planet's land I can't see why it's so hard for them to find another bench and live in peace.
N.
#17
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Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
But still the little bloke continued to assault the new bloke and as a result he built a partition to stop the little bloke getting to him, but the little bloke then started chucking glasses over the top of the partition. The net result is all too similar.
#18
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
i never said the actions the "little bloke" took and takes are reasonable just that they are understandable.
#19
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
bloody tinternet taking ages today.
The actual ownership is largely irrelevant, rented, owned, squatted is imaterial. When people lose their homes and livelyhood they tend to be pissed and humans being humans will often take nonsensical and stupid actions in an attempt to right a wrong whether percieved or actual. add in some religious jingo and you have a problem that will never be solved.
all that said the use of strategic bombing with the height of modern technology against some pretty frickin useless rockets is a tad overkill
The actual ownership is largely irrelevant, rented, owned, squatted is imaterial. When people lose their homes and livelyhood they tend to be pissed and humans being humans will often take nonsensical and stupid actions in an attempt to right a wrong whether percieved or actual. add in some religious jingo and you have a problem that will never be solved.
all that said the use of strategic bombing with the height of modern technology against some pretty frickin useless rockets is a tad overkill
#20
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 872
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
i think this might be a bit more reasonable if the 'big bloke' actually did want to share. instead, it appears to be a bit more of a case of, 'i'm sitting here, and i'm also sitting over there, there, there and there. (pointing to 4 of the remaining 5 benches). you can have that one (the last one) today. (and only today, 'cos i'll change my mind tomorrow).'
even the israeli's have found that their own settlements in the occupied territory are illegal but won't do anything about it! (the people in these settlements then scream for government troops to intervene when the former owners of the land get a bit miffed... go figure...)
the only side to this argument which has even a remote hope in hell of doing something different is the israeli government. they are the only ones with the strength and power to do something. yes, it will take a phenomenal (spelling) political will to do something, but they have to ask themselves do they really want peace? or just to smack hamas back for a couple of months. the military option will never come to a final resolution, it actually takes some political guts and actual desire to sort this out.
unfortunately, i can not see israel stepping up for this one, such a bloody shame for those caught in the middle...
even the israeli's have found that their own settlements in the occupied territory are illegal but won't do anything about it! (the people in these settlements then scream for government troops to intervene when the former owners of the land get a bit miffed... go figure...)
the only side to this argument which has even a remote hope in hell of doing something different is the israeli government. they are the only ones with the strength and power to do something. yes, it will take a phenomenal (spelling) political will to do something, but they have to ask themselves do they really want peace? or just to smack hamas back for a couple of months. the military option will never come to a final resolution, it actually takes some political guts and actual desire to sort this out.
unfortunately, i can not see israel stepping up for this one, such a bloody shame for those caught in the middle...
#21
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Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
Also add to this mix a bunch of crazy christians in a global power who believe that the messiah will come back and rapture will ensue only when the state of israel is fully formed along it's original boundaries.
They then fund and encourage settlements to make this happen.
They then fund and encourage settlements to make this happen.
#22
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
It does seem to hint at the ineffectiveness of the UN if they can't even sort out a minor territorial dispute . I'm sure many in Palestine would accuse them of also being corrupt and uncooperative, they tut both sides while taking no real action as many members seem to back Israel with all she needs to wage war. Not even the moral courage top stand behind their convictions?
#23
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
I doubt this will make them popular with most Palestinians however. Damned if they do and damned if they don't...
#24
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Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
I don't think you've been reading up on recent events. Israel has been in unofficial negotiations with Syria over Golan and seems to be following it's land for peace doctrine again.
The current "war" is against the extremist organisation Hamas who are condemned even by other Arab Muslims for not respecting a ceasefire with Israel...
N.
The current "war" is against the extremist organisation Hamas who are condemned even by other Arab Muslims for not respecting a ceasefire with Israel...
N.
1, The Israelis were the ones who drew first blood with regards to breaking this ceasefire
2, Hamas were voted in in 2006 for political reasons (huge corruption in Fatah, a decent social outreach and welfare programme and the promise to bring order to the streets of Gaza again), not its anti-Israel rhetoric. It was a legitimately elected government which the West refused to recognise or talk to. They also withdrew funding from the ordinary Palestinian people as a result.
#25
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
And I would rather they modern precision bombing than 1940s carpet bombing and firebombing of entire cities killing hundreds of thousands in a single night. Let's not forget Hamas has a policy of building any stragetically important structures next to schools and hospitals to increase the chanced of collateral damage which they can then use for PR.
Masked gunmen often hide in crowds of children and civilians too...soldiers have to shoot back in guess what happens?
A bit of perspective is needed sometimes. If the Arabs stopped fighting there would be peace. If Israel stopped fighting there would be no more Israel no?
N.
#26
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
Also add to this mix a bunch of crazy christians in a global power who believe that the messiah will come back and rapture will ensue only when the state of israel is fully formed along it's original boundaries.
They then fund and encourage settlements to make this happen.
They then fund and encourage settlements to make this happen.
N.
#27
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
Yes it's overkill to us sitting in our front room debating which party to go to later but they are under pressure to do something.
of course but dont pretend for a moment that it isnt massive overkill, were the afghanistan "coalition" (allies?) to do the same today in pakistan for exactly the same reason (state sponsored terrorism)there would be hell to pay
And I would rather they modern precision bombing than 1940s carpet bombing and firebombing of entire cities killing hundreds of thousands in a single night. Let's not forget Hamas has a policy of building any stragetically important structures next to schools and hospitals to increase the chanced of collateral damage which they can then use for PR.
irrelevant, we are no longer in the 1940's and i'd say that of nearly 400 dead and over 1500 injured that there is more than a few cases of "collateral damage". by these actions Israel has lost any moral ground whatsoever, had they initiated this with an insertion of troops to take and eliminate hammas targets, i and the world would be less outraged but Israel fears its own body bags but apparently has no problem with Palestinian ones
Masked gunmen often hide in crowds of children and civilians too...soldiers have to shoot back in guess what happens?
yes, and look to bloody sunday as an example of how that helps the peace process!
A bit of perspective is needed sometimes. If the Arabs stopped fighting there would be peace. If Israel stopped fighting there would be no more Israel no?
N.
of course but dont pretend for a moment that it isnt massive overkill, were the afghanistan "coalition" (allies?) to do the same today in pakistan for exactly the same reason (state sponsored terrorism)there would be hell to pay
And I would rather they modern precision bombing than 1940s carpet bombing and firebombing of entire cities killing hundreds of thousands in a single night. Let's not forget Hamas has a policy of building any stragetically important structures next to schools and hospitals to increase the chanced of collateral damage which they can then use for PR.
irrelevant, we are no longer in the 1940's and i'd say that of nearly 400 dead and over 1500 injured that there is more than a few cases of "collateral damage". by these actions Israel has lost any moral ground whatsoever, had they initiated this with an insertion of troops to take and eliminate hammas targets, i and the world would be less outraged but Israel fears its own body bags but apparently has no problem with Palestinian ones
Masked gunmen often hide in crowds of children and civilians too...soldiers have to shoot back in guess what happens?
yes, and look to bloody sunday as an example of how that helps the peace process!
A bit of perspective is needed sometimes. If the Arabs stopped fighting there would be peace. If Israel stopped fighting there would be no more Israel no?
N.
#28
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 353
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
Hamas democratically elected, yet democracy is only reconginised when it suits outside forces, or when all the candidates where put there by said outside forces, read Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Israeli blockades over the past 2 years have been slowly and painfully suffocating Gaza. While not as spectacular as f16 strikes,starvation is probably more painful and unlike being bombed and shot there is no adrenaline rush that goes with it to ease the mental and physical suffering.
The ceasefire was supposed to result in the end of the blockades, but Israel failed on this and their true deceitful nature is made apparent by
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas", (www.haaretz.com). Basically they played Hamas, they deliberately negotiated a ceasefire under the pretense that if Hamas were "good boys" the blockades would be removed. This was only a detraction to plan their vile attacks, knowing that when the blockades were not removed Hamas would start firing their home made fireworks and vavavoom Israel will have their justification to launch their attacks. I ask, how can something that started last sunday justify something that was planned 5 months ago?
Also there is an inherent contradiction in the views of some people here, they say Hamas are wrong and violence is never the way. To hear them speak you would think those f16 were firing Christmas cards.
The Israeli blockades over the past 2 years have been slowly and painfully suffocating Gaza. While not as spectacular as f16 strikes,starvation is probably more painful and unlike being bombed and shot there is no adrenaline rush that goes with it to ease the mental and physical suffering.
The ceasefire was supposed to result in the end of the blockades, but Israel failed on this and their true deceitful nature is made apparent by
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas", (www.haaretz.com). Basically they played Hamas, they deliberately negotiated a ceasefire under the pretense that if Hamas were "good boys" the blockades would be removed. This was only a detraction to plan their vile attacks, knowing that when the blockades were not removed Hamas would start firing their home made fireworks and vavavoom Israel will have their justification to launch their attacks. I ask, how can something that started last sunday justify something that was planned 5 months ago?
Also there is an inherent contradiction in the views of some people here, they say Hamas are wrong and violence is never the way. To hear them speak you would think those f16 were firing Christmas cards.
#29
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Joined: May 2007
Location: Utopia
Posts: 1,644
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
Hamas democratically elected, yet democracy is only reconginised when it suits outside forces, or when all the candidates where put there by said outside forces, read Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Israeli blockades over the past 2 years have been slowly and painfully suffocating Gaza. While not as spectacular as f16 strikes,starvation is probably more painful and unlike being bombed and shot there is no adrenaline rush that goes with it to ease the mental and physical suffering.
The ceasefire was supposed to result in the end of the blockades, but Israel failed on this and their true deceitful nature is made apparent by
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas", (www.haaretz.com). Basically they played Hamas, they deliberately negotiated a ceasefire under the pretense that if Hamas were "good boys" the blockades would be removed. This was only a detraction to plan their vile attacks, knowing that when the blockades were not removed Hamas would start firing their home made fireworks and vavavoom Israel will have their justification to launch their attacks. I ask, how can something that started last sunday justify something that was planned 5 months ago?
Also there is an inherent contradiction in the views of some people here, they say Hamas are wrong and violence is never the way. To hear them speak you would think those f16 were firing Christmas cards.
The Israeli blockades over the past 2 years have been slowly and painfully suffocating Gaza. While not as spectacular as f16 strikes,starvation is probably more painful and unlike being bombed and shot there is no adrenaline rush that goes with it to ease the mental and physical suffering.
The ceasefire was supposed to result in the end of the blockades, but Israel failed on this and their true deceitful nature is made apparent by
"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas", (www.haaretz.com). Basically they played Hamas, they deliberately negotiated a ceasefire under the pretense that if Hamas were "good boys" the blockades would be removed. This was only a detraction to plan their vile attacks, knowing that when the blockades were not removed Hamas would start firing their home made fireworks and vavavoom Israel will have their justification to launch their attacks. I ask, how can something that started last sunday justify something that was planned 5 months ago?
Also there is an inherent contradiction in the views of some people here, they say Hamas are wrong and violence is never the way. To hear them speak you would think those f16 were firing Christmas cards.
One thing any good military will do is prepare for the next battle whether it comes or not. Israel learnt lessons in the last excursion against Hizbollah, and one of them was to assess your threats and plan accordingly. Nato spent 50 years planning for a war with the Warsaw Pact but I'm sure they never really wanted to be in a situation where they had to be put into action.
#30
Re: Israeal and poor palastinains
..so glad the plan was never put into action or the UK attacked by the USSR in 1978...because the UK's Phantom jets (first line of defence) at that time only had enough ammunition for about 2 to 3 days...according to P.M. Callaghan cabinet papers released under the 30-year rule.