Eva

Well .............
I don't really have time to trawl through the gargantuan library that is the WWW.When I am presented with info/sentiment/propoganda...I compute it in the moment.I think I can assess that which is presented and reply- when appropo- in context and subjectively.
While it pains me greatly that this sorry conflict is ancient, I am in awe of those who have specialist knowledge & expertise of subject matter.
I look to learn.....even if its a cut and paste, if there is novel de facto information on the topic I soak it up.
I suppose it's the John Lennon in me
Every day in every way I'm getting a little better
Knowledge is power.

Roadking

Have no problem whatsoever with learning from others. I steal wisdom and knowledge with pride. It's the self-perpetuating political self-supporting shit that gets me. If someone has an opinion; great, lets hear it. On the other hand; if they use the forum to support or forward a political agenda; sorry, not interested! Open discussion without closed minds, that works for me.

Norm_uk

If it's payback why aren't Jews blowing up Germans in coffee shops?

Around 6 million Jews killed in WWII over 6 or so years according to most sources and all civilians to boot.

Whereas if we add up all the dead from all the wars and conflicts since Israel was born as a modern state in 1948 we're left with a figure of under 80,000 including civilians.

60 years and they've not managed to even get to the big 100,000 mark in the Arab-Israeli conflict.

If they are out to destroy each other they are doing a really, really bad job of it aren't they? Makes me wonder why the media throws around words like massacre and genocide when the numbers are not even close to it.

N.

The Dean

If it's payback why aren't Jews blowing up Germans in coffee shops?

Just out of curiosity......... are there many Jews living in modern-day Germany?

littlejimmy

The problem I have with this kind of thing (i.e. asking why Jews are not bombing coffee shops in Germany) is that it is assuming some kind of level playing field where all the motivations and driving factors are the same. It is also based on the assumption that everone has to play by the same rules of engagement, even though one side has an enormous advantage.

If the positions were reversed and the likes of Hamas had all the high-tech weaponry, tanks and jets and the unwavering support of the only world superpower, would they feel the need - or indeed be motivated - to resort to suicide bombings? Would they wipe out everything they didn't like? Hard to say, because to get in that position in the first place they would have power and influence in an historical context. They probably would if it happened magically overnight, but that's not based on reality...

I don't have the grasp on history that others do, but is it not a fact that all occupations (even perceived occupations, if you want to get into semantics) are doomed to failure and that terrorist and guerilla tactics have always been used against the better-armed, more-organised side? Where insurgents feel the need to fight, they aren't likely to try and take them on face-to-face in a battlefield situation where they will inevitably lose, are they?

It's all very well expecting people (on both sides) to turn the other cheek and be the first to lay down their weapons. It's all very well expecting everyone to act like Ghandi and employ the non-violent approach (a rare occurence, no?) but would we be able to do what we ask if we were in the same position? We are asking people in completely different situations to apply the same set of principles and morals that we hold.

Of course there's a whole other argument about who, if anyone, is being oppressed or occupied and why some feel they are. The people doing and supporting these awful things must be feeling that way, right? Or are the extremists just this way inclined - looking for any excuse to ? When these nutters get into positions of power, then things get really scary. They carry everyone along with their corrupted vision and make them believe they are being wronged and oppressed and create convenient enemies to demonise and justify attacks against. It happens through all threads of life, if we think about it. Divide and conquer...

This is not apologism for anyone, it's just a stream of thought. I'm just trying to understand the vagaries of human behaviour. I really should read some more history books. I've not even touched on religion and how that muddies the waters...

My head hurts.

Eva

[QUOTE=Norm_uk;7146203]If it's payback why aren't Jews blowing up Germans in coffee shops?

Around 6 million Jews killed in WWII over 6 or so years according to most sources and all civilians to boot......




Hello Norm,

I have highlighted two pieces in my previous posts- one of which you are indeed quoting from.

My reference to 'a degree of payback'. Perhaps I was wrong to use that....what I wanted to convey by that was IMHO Israel is rightly still angry about the Holocaust and will exhibit aggression as therapy to assuage that anger and not exclusively towards the German peoples.

My comment about the current carnage paling against the circumstances of the Holocaust surely corroborates your statement that the casualty rate of the Holocaust was far greater than other conflicts to date inclu. one under discussion?

My second quote refers to posters such as yourself who have in - depth knowledge of the situation- I am aware my gauche statements identify my lack or limited knowledge.
Ergo I read to learn and post to query.
What I do know unequivocally is that I am ashamed that we a civilised world are here again at this sorry position in history where war is the rule of order and the fall out seems again to be impacting moreso on innocent kids and non targets.......
I look forward to your response.
Incidentally, my latest past read on the Holocaust is Primo Levi.I would be interested to know your comments on his work.

Charismatic

I'm not so sure Israel is motivated by their religious ideology, it is often still referred to as the Jewish State but Israel protects free worship (or not ) of all types has a very diverse population, although obviously the majority are Jewish (76%). For me this is the most persuasive argument for Israels continued existence, not tenuous historic land claims or the interpretations of a dubious religious text.

Palestinians are often assumed to be Muslim, many are but a significant number are Christian Arabs and others do not count themselves to be Arabs at all but a distinct bedouin tribes .

Lets not let religion muddy the water, mostly it's politics and land.

The cynic in me says hopefully Hamas will run out of rockets and declare a cease fire, Israel will have to follow suit or be made out to look like bullies. Isn't that how it usually works?

I'm very dissapointed by BBC coverage of this TBH, they seem to have abandoned factual reporting completly. Am I alone?

The Dean

BBC displaying bias?

But... but... but... they are the BBC!!!! You aren't allowed to challenge them!!! How dare you???

When I have time I'll post links to documentary evidence of outrageous bias in their Europe/EU-related coverage - the way their Radio 4 interviewers show hostility to eurosceptics, etc, etc.

littlejimmy

The sad fact is that it is difficult to find any unbiased news reporting anywhere. Everyone has an agenda and reports the news from a particular viewpoint.