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Islamic view on aliens .

Islamic view on aliens .

Old Sep 4th 2013, 8:37 am
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

The only thing that science has disproved from a religious perspective is the creation myth. Otherwise science hasn't disproved (or proved) the existence of gods. If anything the findings of science has only revealed how complex and mind-boggling our universe is, which does encourage some people to believe there must be some sort of creator behind the whole big bang. Even Stephen Hawkins has suggested that there could be a 'creator' somewhere or somehow, even if isn't the conventional old white man with a long beard and a staff floating on a cloud.

Anyway, for most practicing Christians I know the creation isn't the point of their faith. The creation myth occupies less than 1% of the bible and the rest is a combination of the history of the Jews and philosophy. Not sure about the other religious texts.

Originally Posted by Boomhauer
They may have their own but it won't be ours so they could still give ours a licking; there's always hope.

Yeah the big religion have accepted science because they knew it would be a losing proposition to publicly oppose it; so they just change their tune to accommodate it, as opposed to just admitting their are FOS.
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 9:54 am
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by Ethos83
The only thing that science has disproved from a religious perspective is the creation myth. Otherwise science hasn't disproved (or proved) the existence of gods. If anything the findings of science has only revealed how complex and mind-boggling our universe is, which does encourage some people to believe there must be some sort of creator behind the whole big bang. Even Stephen Hawkins has suggested that there could be a 'creator' somewhere or somehow, even if isn't the conventional old white man with a long beard and a staff floating on a cloud.

Anyway, for most practicing Christians I know the creation isn't the point of their faith. The creation myth occupies less than 1% of the bible and the rest is a combination of the history of the Jews and philosophy. Not sure about the other religious texts.
There is no need to disprove the existence of god ; it is up to theistic religion to prove it.

Anyway my comment wasn't soo much about proving the existence of god rather organized religion proving the outlandish claims in their texts. They know it is bunk so they really have no choice but to defer to science.
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 11:15 am
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

The chicken or the egg? What came first? Religion needs to prove god? Science needs to disprove god? Neither side can do it from the other side's perspective.

A priest I once knew slightly commented that the only evidence he needed of the existence of God was to walk outside and look at nature all around him. For people who are inclined to be religious they don't need 'proof'. They 'know' it. The evidence is already there to support them from their perspective. Likewise for atheists the evidence is already there to support their belief in the non-existence of gods.

As it is most astute observers know that religion is an incredibly complex form and one that has evolved constantly throughout time just as humans have evolved. Just because one saying or edict or story may no longer be true doesn't cancel out the whole thing, just as a scientist disproving an earlier accepted law of nature or theory (which happens all the time) doesn't disprove the whole thing. There's plenty of devout bishops and priests who know that the story of Noah's Ark was only an early attempt to explain the emergence of the world, just as plenty of scientists know that the ancient Greeks' acceptance of four elements as per Aristotelian physics was only an early attempt to explain the world.

It's probably misleading to frame the debate as a war between science and religion, given that there are religious scientists and religious leaders and schools who subscribe to Science magazine. Anyway, I don't have the time or inclination to get dragged into a long winded debate over semantics or belief of any type, but perhaps we can both agree that those who believe in the infallibility of their belief, such as those who do believe everything in the bible must be true as well as those who reject any possibility that global warming may not solely be caused by humanity but may be partly if not entirely attributable to forces of nature, are quite often wrong and quite often the most dangerous people of all.

Originally Posted by Boomhauer
There is no need to disprove the existence of god ; it is up to theistic religion to prove it.

Anyway my comment wasn't soo much about proving the existence of god rather organized religion proving the outlandish claims in their texts. They know it is bunk so they really have no choice but to defer to science.

Last edited by Ethos83; Sep 4th 2013 at 11:18 am.
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 11:34 am
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by Ethos83

As it is most astute observers know that religion is an incredibly complex form and one that has evolved constantly throughout time just as humans have evolved.
I'm obviously not very astute, then.
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 11:53 am
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by Ethos83
A priest I once knew slightly commented that the only evidence he needed of the existence of God was to walk outside and look at nature all around him.
Can't see how nature proves the existence of God. What it does prove is that if you orbit a lump of rock a certain distance from the sun then lifeforms will evolve on that rock. Simplistic, I know, but true.

Which makes me laugh about religions who bang on about God creating this and that and the other (in fact everything) and then they go out and destroy - via oil, cars, chemicals, war, etc - what they claim God has created. I say this to the Saudis, adding that you can't respect God because you destroy what, according to you, he created. They go ballistic which is par for the course when confronted with truth.

Buddhism is the most logical religion in its fundamental respect for nature. And in my opinion there isn't a God, there is a Goddess known as Mother Nature.

Last edited by Randy Bender; Sep 4th 2013 at 11:57 am. Reason: Extra Info
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 3:35 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

It goes both ways.

Wow. Life can emerge on a hard rock in the middle of space. There must be a god.

Wow. Life can emerge on a hard rock in the middle of space. There must not be a god.

I understand both perspectives. Some people find evidence for a creator amongst the extraordinary complex marvels of nature and nature is indeed marvelous. Others see that the complexities of nature means a creator wasn't necessary.

Originally Posted by Randy Bender
Can't see how nature proves the existence of God. What it does prove is that if you orbit a lump of rock a certain distance from the sun then lifeforms will evolve on that rock. Simplistic, I know, but true.

Which makes me laugh about religions who bang on about God creating this and that and the other (in fact everything) and then they go out and destroy - via oil, cars, chemicals, war, etc - what they claim God has created. I say this to the Saudis, adding that you can't respect God because you destroy what, according to you, he created. They go ballistic which is par for the course when confronted with truth.

Buddhism is the most logical religion in its fundamental respect for nature. And in my opinion there isn't a God, there is a Goddess known as Mother Nature.
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 3:58 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

If you weren't told there was a God, would you come to the conclusion there was a God on your own?
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 4:01 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by Ethos83
Wow. Life can emerge on a hard rock in the middle of space. There must be a god.

Wow. Life can emerge on a hard rock in the middle of space. There must not be a god.
That's false logic. I was responsible for the English on the English-language electronic signage in multi-storey car parks in Kobe (I'm not really sure how, but anyway)...It was obvious that if there were no spaces, then the entrance sign should read "Full"; the proposition I had to deal with was that, if a car park was not full, then the opposite of that could either be "Not Full" or "Empty". The first option is not idiomatic, and the second is wrong. And so it is with your proposition: I don't believe anyone is arguing that the emergence of life proves that there is not a god, and therefore the opposite of "there must be a god" is "this neither proves nor suggests either way".

As others have said, if there is to be a rational argument, it is up to the believers to demonstrate logic or proof substantiating their proposition, not for others to disprove. And, as I think you yourself said, for those who believe its not about proof, but belief. And there ends rationality.

ps I proposed "Spaces", which flew.
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 4:16 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

I'd be inclined to think that there's something out there, somehow, one way or another. That the spark which started the universe came from somewhere. I don't believe in infinity and that since everything has a beginning and an end, including the universe itself, that makes me conclude there is a 'creator' of some kind.* But whether it's a conventional god pertaining to any of the religions as they currently stand, I doubt it.

Here's an interesting description of the big bang theory that I lifted from online:

About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.

Mindboggling, eh? But why did the big bang happen? Did something launch it? Was there a reason or purpose to the big bang?

I supposed I've drifted off into metaphysics a bit but the world and universe around us is filled with so many unexplained forces and factors that I can't rule out the possibility of a god.

*Now, it does open another can of worms - who created the creator?

Originally Posted by kittycat1
If you weren't told there was a God, would you come to the conclusion there was a God on your own?
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 4:36 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

I wouldn't go so far as to say what I wrote was false logic.

The two views I wrote makes perfect sense to their respective followers. That is the proof each side needs.

'Science' and religion operate with different types of logic and even understanding of what constitutes rationality. You'll find that many atheists and believers recognise the logic that supports their reasonings and may not understand the logic that supports the opposing viewpoint. What's rational to one side is not rational to the other side and vice versa.

I've read a few interesting essays arguing that the flaws of western science and western critical thinking is that it only accepts a certain understanding of what constitutes logic and rationality. I've seen merit in that argument - it encourages a cold hearted inflexibility towards how the world and its components should be identified and described. Many ancient Greeks argued that in addition to the four main elements (earth, air, water and fire) there was a fifth element, aether, which referred to the spiritual world beyond the material earth, and this concept is also found in old Hindu teachings. The modern scientific world has pretty much stripped itself of this fifth element because it didn't fit within the modern definition of logic and rationality, so we've come to forget that there can be other types of logic and rationality.

As such the clearly devout see and accept 'proof' that would not be truly understandable or recognisable to both of us.





Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
As others have said, if there is to be a rational argument, it is up to the believers to demonstrate logic or proof substantiating their proposition, not for others to disprove. And, as I think you yourself said, for those who believe its not about proof, but belief. And there ends rationality.

ps I proposed "Spaces", which flew.
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 4:42 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by Ethos83
I'd be inclined to think that there's something out there, somehow, one way or another. That the spark which started the universe came from somewhere. I don't believe in infinity and that since everything has a beginning and an end, including the universe itself, that makes me conclude there is a 'creator' of some kind.* But whether it's a conventional god pertaining to any of the religions as they currently stand, I doubt it.

Here's an interesting description of the big bang theory that I lifted from online:

About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. The Big Bang actually consisted of an explosion of space within itself unlike an explosion of a bomb were fragments are thrown outward. The galaxies were not all clumped together, but rather the Big Bang lay the foundations for the universe.

Mindboggling, eh? But why did the big bang happen? Did something launch it? Was there a reason or purpose to the big bang?

I supposed I've drifted off into metaphysics a bit but the world and universe around us is filled with so many unexplained forces and factors that I can't rule out the possibility of a god.

*Now, it does open another can of worms - who created the creator?
That's a pretty inaccurate description of the Big Bang
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 4:57 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

*Now, it does open another can of worms - who created the creator?
For me there is no creator so there was no precreator- question answered. I understand science, obviously my understanding is limited and I'm pushing it with astrophysics to be fair and the concept of infinity is too much for my little brain, however science makes far more sense to me than any religion. I think our (the human race) limited understanding of the universe is so primative we can't even begin to comprehend what is beyond our own universe (if that). My simple understaing is I am here, I am alive because of a chemical reaction in my body, one day that will stop working and I will die and I will no longer exist. What I do inbetween is essentiallly inconsequential to pretty much everyone else on the planet, to the planet itself and to the universe. That doesnt mean I don't care and don't have morals, far from it, but I don't need a religion to tell me what is right and wrong.

I think faith is such a personal thing, some people get comfort from believing in something, it gives some purpose and guidance in their life and helps them sleep at night.

They say the most intelligent people are atheists so perhaps, in fact, I am actually a genius...

Last edited by kittycat1; Sep 4th 2013 at 5:03 pm. Reason: a genius that can't type
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 5:24 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by shiva
That's a pretty inaccurate description of the Big Bang
I'm in no position to judge, but my scepticism kicked in after the first spelling mistake. (Not Ethos', I know.)
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 5:28 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by kittycat1
If you weren't told there was a God, would you come to the conclusion there was a God on your own?
Beliefs, including religious ones, are learned. Which makes atheism a normal state of affairs and religious beliefs a learned "abnormality". No psychological theory is necessary to explain the causes of a normal base state. Any psychological theory of learning, attitude change or socialisation can explain the causes of religious belief.
Rosemary Lyndall, clinical Neuro-psychologist
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Old Sep 4th 2013, 5:30 pm
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Default Re: Islamic view on aliens .

Originally Posted by Ethos83
That the spark which started the universe came from somewhere. I don't believe in infinity and that since everything has a beginning and an end, including the universe itself, that makes me conclude there is a 'creator' of some kind.*
What I have done is to show that it is possible for the way the universe began to be determined by the laws of science. In that case, it would not be necessary to appeal to God to decide on how the universe began. This doesn't prove that there is no God, only that God is not necessary.
Stephen W. Hawking (Der Spiegel, 1989)
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