help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
May 16th 2013, 9:43 am
#31
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Downtown, Dubai
Posts: 782
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
Hmm.
Anyone can fly first class if they pony up the money. Airlines aren't going to say, wait, you're not the right class, you can't fly first. You show them the cash, you get the ticket.
That's the difference between a company refusing to sell a product to someone who doesn't meet their non-financial criteria because they're undesirable for whatever reasons.
If you are a business with a shop on the high street you are operating in the public sphere and as such you have no right to control who buys your product, especially when we're talking about something as trivial as clothing.
The US has very clearly defined laws preventing discrimination in sales. Not long ago there were department stores and hotels that refused to serve black customers. Can you justify that?
Anyone can fly first class if they pony up the money. Airlines aren't going to say, wait, you're not the right class, you can't fly first. You show them the cash, you get the ticket.
That's the difference between a company refusing to sell a product to someone who doesn't meet their non-financial criteria because they're undesirable for whatever reasons.
If you are a business with a shop on the high street you are operating in the public sphere and as such you have no right to control who buys your product, especially when we're talking about something as trivial as clothing.
The US has very clearly defined laws preventing discrimination in sales. Not long ago there were department stores and hotels that refused to serve black customers. Can you justify that?
The fact that the clothes are seen as aspirational by some chunky kids who can’t fit into them might actually be a good thing and get the wee porkers to think twice before munching into a couple of big macs or get them out doing some sport rather than dicking about on Facebook.
As Scampy would say I’m being devil’s helmut to a degree, and for all I don’t agree with much A&F do and have done, they are an extremely successful business so what they are doing, rightly or wrongly in my or our views, does work.
May 16th 2013, 9:45 am
#32
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Doha
Posts: 735
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
Not related to rhe above comment....
What A&F do is perfectly within their rights, but immoral on the basis that they blatently exclude fat and ugly people which perpetuates this evil vendetta society has against overweight people.
Oh and just to make it abundantly clear to those who like to insult others about how they look, A fat person, on being told that they should work harder and they too could be skinny, is not going to suddenly wake up and say "oh my, i've wasted my life away in Greggs, please show me to the treadmill". You're not actually helping them at all in fact by doing that you're probably having the opposite effect.
May 16th 2013, 9:46 am
#33
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Doha
Posts: 735
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
The fact that the clothes are seen as aspirational by some chunky kids who can’t fit into them might actually be a good thing and get the wee porkers to think twice before munching into a couple of big macs or get them out doing some sport rather than dicking about on Facebook.
May 16th 2013, 9:53 am
#34
Account Closed
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,502
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
I am going to have to respecfully disagree.
If we want to live in a democractic society one of the principles we must accept is the prohibition of discrimination in the public sphere. When you operate a for-profit business you are operating in the public sphere and as such you cannot discriminate against customers for reasons other than the price of the good being sold (which represents the cost of your goods/services). The only exception to this would be if the business has a genuine fear that the sale of the product to a certain client can lead to ill-harm against the public elswhere, but the business would have to demonstrably justify their concerns.
Let's consider a clothing store like A&F. The business itself may be private but it relies on public goodwill for survival. By which I include everything from the police to ensure stability on the streets outside the shop to the councils for collecting the waste, ensuring the roads are in good conditions and ensuring an environment conductive to attracting consumers. Then the national government provides, directly or indirectly, much of the means for the transportation of goods and services, both domestically and globally. The national governments also provide tax incentives that directly and indirectly help spur sales in shops. These are just a handful of examples of how private businesses cannot survive outside the public sphere.
That's why it's accepted a business that trades in public comes under the laws and regulations of the public sphere. In democratic societies that includes no discrimination against customers who can afford the product.
Enterprises that exist outside the public sphere, which includes institutions such as schools and private clubs, are allowed to discriminate however they want because they are considered to be non-profit, not reliant on public goodwill, and in the private sphere (just as your house is, thus you have the right to control who may or may not enter your house). But businesses are not in the private sphere.
If we want to live in a democractic society one of the principles we must accept is the prohibition of discrimination in the public sphere. When you operate a for-profit business you are operating in the public sphere and as such you cannot discriminate against customers for reasons other than the price of the good being sold (which represents the cost of your goods/services). The only exception to this would be if the business has a genuine fear that the sale of the product to a certain client can lead to ill-harm against the public elswhere, but the business would have to demonstrably justify their concerns.
Let's consider a clothing store like A&F. The business itself may be private but it relies on public goodwill for survival. By which I include everything from the police to ensure stability on the streets outside the shop to the councils for collecting the waste, ensuring the roads are in good conditions and ensuring an environment conductive to attracting consumers. Then the national government provides, directly or indirectly, much of the means for the transportation of goods and services, both domestically and globally. The national governments also provide tax incentives that directly and indirectly help spur sales in shops. These are just a handful of examples of how private businesses cannot survive outside the public sphere.
That's why it's accepted a business that trades in public comes under the laws and regulations of the public sphere. In democratic societies that includes no discrimination against customers who can afford the product.
Enterprises that exist outside the public sphere, which includes institutions such as schools and private clubs, are allowed to discriminate however they want because they are considered to be non-profit, not reliant on public goodwill, and in the private sphere (just as your house is, thus you have the right to control who may or may not enter your house). But businesses are not in the private sphere.
Anyone can buy A&F if they pony up the six-pack. I fail to see the difference. Why should money be an acceptable criterion for deciding who can and who cannot buy, but not physique? Some people are rich from an early age and stay that way all their life; some people are poor from an early age but make themselves rich. Some people are fit from an early age and stay that way all their life; some people fat from an early age but make themselves fit. Some people strive really hard to be rich, but fail, and so can't fly first class. Some people strive really hard to be fit, but fail, and so can't by A&F. No-one ever said life was meant to be fair, and business enterprises aren't there to make it any fairer.
If you are a business with a shop on the high street you are operating in the public sphere and as such you have no right to control who buys your product, especially when we're talking about something as trivial as clothing.
You have EVERY right to control who buys, unless you are discriminating illegally.
If you are a business with a shop on the high street you are operating in the public sphere and as such you have no right to control who buys your product, especially when we're talking about something as trivial as clothing.
You have EVERY right to control who buys, unless you are discriminating illegally.
May 16th 2013, 9:54 am
#35
Shark Fisherman
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Doha
Posts: 4,568
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
So you're saying the fat and ugly people are unworthy?
Not related to rhe above comment....
What A&F do is perfectly within their rights, but immoral on the basis that they blatently exclude fat and ugly people which perpetuates this evil vendetta society has against overweight people.
Oh and just to make it abundantly clear to those who like to insult others about how they look, A fat person, on being told that they should work harder and they too could be skinny, is not going to suddenly wake up and say "oh my, i've wasted my life away in Greggs, please show me to the treadmill". You're not actually helping them at all in fact by doing that you're probably having the opposite effect.
Not related to rhe above comment....
What A&F do is perfectly within their rights, but immoral on the basis that they blatently exclude fat and ugly people which perpetuates this evil vendetta society has against overweight people.
Oh and just to make it abundantly clear to those who like to insult others about how they look, A fat person, on being told that they should work harder and they too could be skinny, is not going to suddenly wake up and say "oh my, i've wasted my life away in Greggs, please show me to the treadmill". You're not actually helping them at all in fact by doing that you're probably having the opposite effect.
All my A&F stuff is in the UK where it could be staying. Their Polo shirts were very good quality. Their marketing is certainly working though as we have all been talking about it. Genius.
May 16th 2013, 9:55 am
#36
Concierge
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 29,625
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
talking but not buying so not that genius
May 16th 2013, 9:57 am
#38
Account Closed
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,502
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
Refusing to make clothes in a certain size is not A&F's problem nor is it discriminatory.
A&F, as with any business, is offering a product. It doesn't matter who wants to buy the product, A&F can't prevent the sale of that product to the customer as long as the customer has the money to pay for the sale. Bahtboy was implying that A&F has the right to deliberately not sell to a certain customer (discrimination), not that A&F has the right to not make something in a certain size (not discrimination).
It's not A&F's problem if someone buys something way too small.
A&F, as with any business, is offering a product. It doesn't matter who wants to buy the product, A&F can't prevent the sale of that product to the customer as long as the customer has the money to pay for the sale. Bahtboy was implying that A&F has the right to deliberately not sell to a certain customer (discrimination), not that A&F has the right to not make something in a certain size (not discrimination).
It's not A&F's problem if someone buys something way too small.
But, A&F aren’t stopping anyone buying the products. That they make clothes in certain sizes means not everyone will fit into them is different, they produce other products which are less size dependent, footwear, aftershave, accessories etc which anyone could buy or use.
The fact that the clothes are seen as aspirational by some chunky kids who can’t fit into them might actually be a good thing and get the wee porkers to think twice before munching into a couple of big macs or get them out doing some sport rather than dicking about on Facebook.
As Scampy would say I’m being devil’s helmut to a degree, and for all I don’t agree with much A&F do and have done, they are an extremely successful business so what they are doing, rightly or wrongly in my or our views, does work.
The fact that the clothes are seen as aspirational by some chunky kids who can’t fit into them might actually be a good thing and get the wee porkers to think twice before munching into a couple of big macs or get them out doing some sport rather than dicking about on Facebook.
As Scampy would say I’m being devil’s helmut to a degree, and for all I don’t agree with much A&F do and have done, they are an extremely successful business so what they are doing, rightly or wrongly in my or our views, does work.
May 16th 2013, 9:57 am
#40
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
What A&F do is perfectly within their rights, but immoral on the basis that they blatently exclude fat and ugly people which perpetuates this evil vendetta society has against overweight people. I concede that there is some merit in that argument.
Oh and just to make it abundantly clear to those who like to insult others about how they look, A fat person, on being told that they should work harder and they too could be skinny, is not going to suddenly wake up and say "oh my, i've wasted my life away in Greggs, please show me to the treadmill". You're not actually helping them at all in fact by doing that you're probably having the opposite effect. What does work then? Not being nasty here. Surely some people will respond positively to that kind of direct approach.
May 16th 2013, 10:03 am
#41
Shark Fisherman
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Doha
Posts: 4,568
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
Most designer clothes are built for skinny blokes anyhow.
A & F is a strange one as its one of the only American designers that has small sizes. I expect it from the french & Italians so generally avoid their shite.
Paul Smith, Replay, Diesel, Ralph Lauren, TH and Hugo Boss all fit so I stick to them.
A & F is a strange one as its one of the only American designers that has small sizes. I expect it from the french & Italians so generally avoid their shite.
Paul Smith, Replay, Diesel, Ralph Lauren, TH and Hugo Boss all fit so I stick to them.
May 16th 2013, 10:09 am
#43
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Doha
Posts: 735
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
I don't know what works unfortunately, but i think it starts with acceptance, a non-judgemental stance and the knowledge that there isnt much you can do to help other than let them come to their own conclusions and decide to do something about it on their own. Do you think for one second a fat person doesn't realise they are fat? or, for that matter, the basic rules of how not to be fat?
Trying to help someone else by controlling or heavily influencing their behaviour and/or getting pissed off when they don't listen or rtake your advice is called codependancy.
Trying to help someone else by controlling or heavily influencing their behaviour and/or getting pissed off when they don't listen or rtake your advice is called codependancy.
May 16th 2013, 10:12 am
#44
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: help to change Abercrombie & Fitch's brand message
I'd much rather be my size and build than skinny. No shadow of doubt in that.
If A&F didn't fit, I wouldn't wear it.
Don't get me wrong, it's annoying going into River Island or somewhere for a cheap pair of chinos / shorts and realising they only go up to a 36 waist....well, it's annoying until you remember that nice shops go higher
If A&F didn't fit, I wouldn't wear it.
Don't get me wrong, it's annoying going into River Island or somewhere for a cheap pair of chinos / shorts and realising they only go up to a 36 waist....well, it's annoying until you remember that nice shops go higher
