EK in trouble?

Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:01 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Millhouse
exactly. So when I was having my mid-life performance review , I looked into training to be a pilot.

Then I discovered it was something like 100k USD to fully train, for a job that starts on around 25kAED a month. Bit of a disconnect there.
That's why so many are ex forces.

Training provided FOC, paid through it, serve a bit, see very little to no action, crossover training, job for life, big pension, thanks for coming.

Several mates gone down that route for this exact reason.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:03 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Scamp
That's why so many are ex forces.

Training provided FOC, paid through it, serve a bit, see very little to no action, crossover training, job for life, big pension, thanks for coming.

Several mates gone down that route for this exact reason.
Anyway, it'll be drones before we know it. Probably with some vending machines onboard to get rid of the waitresses.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:22 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Scamp
That's why so many are ex forces.

Training provided FOC, paid through it, serve a bit, see very little to no action, crossover training, job for life, big pension, thanks for coming.

Several mates gone down that route for this exact reason.
Big pension?

The old BA pension scheme has the largest deficit of any UK final salary scheme and can only support something like 50% of real liabilities. Anyone in that should get out. The newer schemes aren't all that, nor are the current schemes of other airlines.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:24 pm
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Meow
Big pension?

The old BA pension scheme has the largest deficit of any UK final salary scheme and can only support something like 50% of real liabilities. Anyone in that should get out. The newer schemes aren't all that, nor are the current schemes of other airlines.
Sorry, meant the forces ones. Build 20 years of that and then 20 years of an airline pension and you're not going to struggle.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:26 pm
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Scamp
Sorry, meant the forces ones. Build 20 years of that and then 20 years of an airline pension and you're not going to struggle.
You realise the Forces pension schemes has been restructured in recent years? Longer service required for a smaller pension.

Unless you are an MP or in the Civil Service the days of gold-plated pensions plans are pretty much gone.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:32 pm
  #21  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Meow
You realise the Forces pension schemes has been restructured in recent years? Longer service required for a smaller pension.

Unless you are an MP or in the Civil Service the days of gold-plated pensions plans are pretty much gone.
It's better than my non-existent pension, that's for sure.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:36 pm
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Scamp
It's better than my non-existent pension, that's for sure.
I'm giving you a look. You know that, right?

Now stop making me talk about pensions and seem even more boring than usual.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:41 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Meow
I'm giving you a look. You know that, right?

Now stop making me talk about pensions and seem even more boring than usual.
I've accepted my life expectancy is about 45. Why bother saving?
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:45 pm
  #24  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Meow
You realise the Forces pension schemes has been restructured in recent years? Longer service required for a smaller pension.

Unless you are an MP or in the Civil Service the days of gold-plated pensions plans are pretty much gone.
You turn me on when you talk like this.
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 12:48 pm
  #25  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Meow
I'm giving you a look. You know that, right?

Now stop making me talk about pensions and seem even more boring than usual.
I think you are hot!

Originally Posted by Millhouse
You turn me on when you talk like this.
x 2 gmta
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Old Mar 8th 2017, 1:05 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Scamp
It barely exists now. They don't do anything beyond what a 7yr old could do on a simulator.
But I think this is where the greatest risk lies: pilots are semi-engaged. It's like a much more extreme version of cruise control on a car - which I think should be banned anyway. It allows the driver to think its ok to be distracted and not give full attention to their driving.

I read a really interesting - and scary - long piece (alas I can't remember where) about the Air France plane that crashed in the south Atlantic coming from Brazil a few years ago. Essentially the final conclusion is that the crash happened during the experienced Captain's rest period because the younger co-pilot, who only knew fly-by-wire planes, made a couple of significant judgement errors about the external environment that a more experienced "hands-on" pilot probably would not have made. The Captain woke up in time to realise what was happening but not to avert the crash (all captured on the voice recorders).

This interim between total human control and total machine control contains the potential for most issues, equally so on autonomous road vehicles. I say hand it all over to the machines now....
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Old Mar 9th 2017, 4:38 am
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope
But I think this is where the greatest risk lies: pilots are semi-engaged. It's like a much more extreme version of cruise control on a car - which I think should be banned anyway. It allows the driver to think its ok to be distracted and not give full attention to their driving.

I read a really interesting - and scary - long piece (alas I can't remember where) about the Air France plane that crashed in the south Atlantic coming from Brazil a few years ago. Essentially the final conclusion is that the crash happened during the experienced Captain's rest period because the younger co-pilot, who only knew fly-by-wire planes, made a couple of significant judgement errors about the external environment that a more experienced "hands-on" pilot probably would not have made. The Captain woke up in time to realise what was happening but not to avert the crash (all captured on the voice recorders).

This interim between total human control and total machine control contains the potential for most issues, equally so on autonomous road vehicles. I say hand it all over to the machines now....
Good post.

I do like cruise control though, just for here on the main road to Abu Dhabi. Unlikely to use it otherwise....unless I've just been caught speeding then it's basically my limiter.
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Old Mar 9th 2017, 4:50 am
  #28  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope
Essentially the final conclusion is that the crash happened during the experienced Captain's rest period because the younger co-pilot, who only knew fly-by-wire planes, made a couple of significant judgement errors about the external environment that a more experienced "hands-on" pilot probably would not have made.
Unless the experienced captain was the red baron himself, surely all passenger jets in the modern era are fly by wire.
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Old Mar 9th 2017, 5:09 am
  #29  
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by Miss Ann Thrope
But I think this is where the greatest risk lies: pilots are semi-engaged. It's like a much more extreme version of cruise control on a car - which I think should be banned anyway. It allows the driver to think its ok to be distracted and not give full attention to their driving.

I read a really interesting - and scary - long piece (alas I can't remember where) about the Air France plane that crashed in the south Atlantic coming from Brazil a few years ago. Essentially the final conclusion is that the crash happened during the experienced Captain's rest period because the younger co-pilot, who only knew fly-by-wire planes, made a couple of significant judgement errors about the external environment that a more experienced "hands-on" pilot probably would not have made. The Captain woke up in time to realise what was happening but not to avert the crash (all captured on the voice recorders).

This interim between total human control and total machine control contains the potential for most issues, equally so on autonomous road vehicles. I say hand it all over to the machines now....
interesting
i have always been under the impression that pilots get paid loads, especially given the amount of training/qualifying they have to do
so how much does a pilot earn on average?
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Old Mar 9th 2017, 5:29 am
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Default Re: EK in trouble?

Originally Posted by weasel decentral
Unless the experienced captain was the red baron himself, surely all passenger jets in the modern era are fly by wire.
OK, i found the article. I haven't read back through it but, as I recall, the point was that the older pilot had learned his trade on equipment which required a more instinctive understanding and reading of the conditions outside, especially at night. The younger pilot had only ever worked on planes which were highly automated and thus hadn't developed instincts which allowed him to correctly interpret what was happening especially when the equipment was giving false readings. Therefore he exactly made the wrong calls on how to react.
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