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Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Old Jun 22nd 2011, 3:03 pm
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Jew Boy here! - I think that we have had enough of all this!
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Old Jun 22nd 2011, 3:05 pm
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Ganz Messhuger!
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Old Jun 22nd 2011, 5:07 pm
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
I normally use the word culturalist this way: "Culturalist".

I have also defined clearly what I mean by this on several occasions but will do it again:

I believe some cultures are better than others. I believe some values are superior and serve the world better than others. While I am happy to admit even the best cultures are not perfect I cannot rightful put Western culture alongside say - Afghan or Saudi Culture and say they are equal because they are clearly not.
I can't believe i am going to post on this but anyhow.

Regardless of the subject of the debate at hand, or what exactly a culturalist is.
Or how western culture with 100's of different languages and micro cultures can somehow be distilled down into an essence which is somehow objectively judged to be better than the distilled essence of another culture.
While I believe is an acceptable term, opinion does not become fact to be able to say one is clearly not equal to the other.

Until the first visitor from Mars arrives to earth with an objective check sheet of what requirements a culture should have no one can make those sort of claims with any credibilty. We cannot see the wood for the trees. Surprisingly in any survey each person is going to claim his culture is the better one.

Just regarding the term culturalist, it seems very interchangeable with race when used in the Middle East. If I was to define the Saudi culture and the people concerned I would be very surprised if that included anyone except the Saudi race. For me it seems like looking a snooker table of black balls and instead of saying the black ones you say the round ones instead.

Anyhow I am not interested in the actual specifics but rather how this debate is framed.

As you were
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 3:37 am
  #94  
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by WakeUp View Post
Unfortunately not, its semantics I'm afraid, but not to worry be boring if we all thought the same way.

The negatives you have picked could be from our own cultures but 100+ years ago for the most part.

Culturalism v. Racism is a crock (they are one and the same for the most part) and that is my completely opinionated view, you will never convince me otherwise and I will never convince you so we are done.
100 years ago women in the West in general were freer than women in Saudi Arabia today (granted that's an extreme example but it gets the point over).

I was attempting to explain my position not convince you of my views. I find it very sad that you have admitted "culturalism" and racism are virtually the same thing, but that this is your "opinionated" view and you cannot be convinced otherwise.

You're essentially telling me "I disagree with you but cannot or will not tell you why".

N.
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 3:49 am
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
100 years ago women in the West in general were freer than women in Saudi Arabia today (granted that's an extreme example but it gets the point over).

I was attempting to explain my position not convince you of my views. I find it very sad that you have admitted "culturalism" and racism are virtually the same thing, but that this is your "opinionated" view and you cannot be convinced otherwise.

You're essentially telling me "I disagree with you but cannot or will not tell you why".

N.
I do not disagree that the things you mention need to be eradicated, but our society has many bad things that also need to be resolved that seem crazy to an outsider.

I have explained to you on an earlier thread that I cannot stand discrimination of any kind, whether that be based on colour, creed, sex, age, culture or the colour of someones hoodie. It appears to me that in all of your study the focus has been back to front, you have been looking for differences, I would have been looking for similarities, we are poles apart Norm.

Dress it up and use whatever spin you like but what you are talking about is discriminating against huge sections of the human population both on cultural grounds and religious grounds.

So I disagree based on discrimination. As politicians like to say "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it will still be a pig."

WU

PS. I'm guessing your not a football man, but I can't stand Blackpool fans, call me a hypocrite if you like but its part of my culture, and besides there are only about 20 of them
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 3:50 am
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by jackthehat View Post
Jew Boy here! - I think that we have had enough of all this!
Then please look away.
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 4:14 am
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
Of course its bloody semantics: "the meaning of words". If you're unable to define--and agree on--the meaning of the words you're using in a debate, then the debate's meaningless. Hence my earlier post...
Thanks for adjudicating.
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 8:22 am
  #98  
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by WakeUp View Post
I do not disagree that the things you mention need to be eradicated, but our society has many bad things that also need to be resolved that seem crazy to an outsider.
Indeed...and I'd be the first to agree. Then again I never said Western culture was perfect – I said it was “better”. I’m of mixed race myself, have a girlfriend of a different race, was married for seven years to a woman of a different race to her and have a mixed race son so I’d be interested to know why you think I am racist because I see certain values as superior and take a dim view of cultures which enshrine things which go against the principles set down in the charter of human rights for example
Originally Posted by WakeUp View Post
I have explained to you on an earlier thread that I cannot stand discrimination of any kind, whether that be based on colour, creed, sex, age, culture or the colour of someones hoodie. It appears to me that in all of your study the focus has been back to front, you have been looking for differences, I would have been looking for similarities, we are poles apart Norm.
Discrimination can be positive or negative. I am guilty of judging not pre-judging (prejudice). I very much doubt you go through life without discriminating anyone or anything, I certainly don’t and find people who claim they do to be suspect at least – the number of real racists and bigots out there who claim they do nothing wrong is frightening and is one of the main reasons truly nasty bigotry still exists.
I am only speaking in general, broad terms here and specifically about culture (which you think is the same as race – meaning group behaviour is dictated by genetics rather than learned behaviour which is what culture is. They are often connected because groups stick together but they are not the same. If they are the same then people of different races are bound to behave in certain ways regardless of what they are taught – as an example I would have to behave like an English, Irish and colonial creole all at once because that’s all in my family tree…when in reality I behave according to the culture I grew up with, which is predominantly English and Irish)
I could be wrong but you appear to think that because of my views here I go around looking to highlight differences between myself and others. This couldn't be further from the truth. There’s a big difference between being unafraid to call a spade a space (excuse the pun there) and going around belittling other cultures out of nastiness and hatred. That said I do literally hate the idea of not having rule of law, or not trying to give equality of opportunity or not hiring people because of merit above all else.
Originally Posted by WakeUp View Post
Dress it up and use whatever spin you like but what you are talking about is discriminating against huge sections of the human population both on cultural grounds and religious grounds.
Not exactly, I'm talking about judging huge sections of humanity based on their cultural/ideological/religious expressions. When you've been overseas as long as I have and encountered so many different peoples you begin to see that many people are fiercely proud of their culture and heritage - even when sometimes they have very negative values which are against basic human rights (emancipation of women, rule of law, religious freedom etc). But many westerners, who come from cultures that have literally ended certain diseases in the last 50 years, who have opened up the world to trade and commerce, brought rule of law where it wasn't before and ended slavery are painfully not proud and usually unaware. I am for being proud of our positives and using them as inspiration to end our negatives.
I suppose I am more comfortable with human nature and would rather work with what we have for better or worse than pretend we have high ideals like not discriminating things people can change like their values or beliefs (naturally discriminating against things people cannot change like their race or gender or sexual expression is immoral).
[QUOTE=WakeUp;9451063]So I disagree based on discrimination. As politicians like to say "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it will still be a pig."
Disagreement is fine. I do feel you don’t fully understand what my position is though…but many don’t. We are products of a culture that teaches us all discrimination is wrong, all cultures are relative and even all values are relative…I challenge this because I know from experience and study sometimes they are not. Just as Edwardian values in our culture were often skewed or downright wrong in some cases, today some cultures just are not with the program. (That said those primitives still managed to end slavery and enforce the ban...)
Originally Posted by WakeUp View Post
I'm guessing your not a football man, but I can't stand Blackpool fans, call me a hypocrite if you like but its part of my culture, and besides there are only about 20 of them
You guessed correctly. I am certain you would not refuse a job or humanitarian aid to a Blackpool fan however…then again Blackpool fans don’t stone adulterous women or chop up little children’s genitals (as far as I know anyway!)

N.
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 8:45 am
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post

You guessed correctly. I am certain you would not refuse a job or humanitarian aid to a Blackpool fan however…then again Blackpool fans don’t stone adulterous women or chop up little children’s genitals (as far as I know anyway!)

N.
Norm - I am sure the rest of the board will be happy to hear that I am going to end this by thanking you for your time and for your detailed explanations even though I so obviously offended you. For this I apologise, I do want to caveat that by suggesting that sometimes, maybe, some of your posts can be interpretted as racist, hence my reaction. I completely accept that because of your background this is something that you certainly do not do in any intentional way.

As for the final statement you may be right I may not go that far with Blackpool fans, although Blackpool is apparently the paedophile capital of the UK so read into that what you will.

cheers,

WU
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 8:54 am
  #100  
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by WakeUp View Post
Norm - I am sure the rest of the board will be happy to hear that I am going to end this by thanking you for your time and for your detailed explanations even though I so obviously offended you. For this I apologise, I do want to caveat that by suggesting that sometimes, maybe, some of your posts can be interpretted as racist, hence my reaction. I completely accept that because of your background this is something that you certainly do not do in any intentional way.

As for the final statement you may be right I may not go that far with Blackpool fans, although Blackpool is apparently the paedophile capital of the UK so read into that what you will.

cheers,

WU
You've never offended me except by accusing me of being racist because you believe race and culture are the same thing (which is ironically extremely racist and has been used to justify pogroms and ethnic cleansing). If the two can be separated we have to consider the possibility that values can be taught and changed...and that is a reality everywhere or we wouldn't be able to move on from bronze age morals and values.

N.
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Old Jun 23rd 2011, 11:01 am
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
You've never offended me except by accusing me of being racist because you believe race and culture are the same thing (which is ironically extremely racist and has been used to justify pogroms and ethnic cleansing). If the two can be separated we have to consider the possibility that values can be taught and changed...and that is a reality everywhere or we wouldn't be able to move on from bronze age morals and values.

N.
Do I sound like Pol Pot? Maybe the hippy version
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Old Jun 25th 2011, 9:31 am
  #102  
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Default Re: Dog sentenced to be stoned to death

Originally Posted by WakeUp View Post
Do I sound like Pol Pot? Maybe the hippy version
Well...you do sound a bit like a cultural Marxist to be honest, and putting culture and race in the same basket is racist. To fix this smoke pot and that should stop you sounding like Pol Pot

N.
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