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Do you consider yourself to be European?

Do you consider yourself to be European?

Old May 16th 2011, 1:47 pm
  #106  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by norsk View Post
In honour of The Dean who has pledged his allegiance to UKIP a number of times I share this picture that I took on the Saudi side of the Saudi-Bahrain Causeway..
Is that The Dean driving?
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Old May 16th 2011, 2:49 pm
  #107  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by littlejimmy View Post
Yes, quite. But when we went and changed other countries' cultures, we saw it as educating the savages!
And in some cases we were educating people who were savages - in others we were just being bastards. No empire was ever built on timidity and respect of other people's cultures - look at how the Arabs virtually wiped out the native cultures of north africa and parts of the middle east.We forced Hindus to stop burning their widows along with the dead husbands for example - that wasn't a bad thing. How we treated native Australians WAS a bad thing as another example. You can't seriously tell me that cannibals in Papua New Guinea or widow burners in India were comparable to 19th Century British culture for it's faults and triumphs?

We ended slavery on our own which I think is a testimony to our civillisation we don't teach our children at all (preferring to focus on the fact we had slavery as if we invented it or something). I've noticed all we do is focus on the bad...I'd be interested to see a list of pros and cons of the British Empire drawn up.

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Old May 16th 2011, 3:13 pm
  #108  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by littlejimmy View Post
But the implication (intentional or not) is that all immigrants to the UK are just going for free houses and benefits. That's just not the case, and on the issue of integration, Brits don't always integrate into local culture, learn the language, etc. If you want to ask anyone about cultural erosion, ask an old Emirati.
A very poor comparison - how many Brits can take a passport after five years? Most don't even stay that long and many contribute to critical areas like production, manufacturing, construction and technical services...the UAE could not function without immigrants. The UK is capable of survival if immigration dropped by 95% tomorrow.

How many Brits in the UAE have anything close to the same rights and treatment under law that Emiratis enjoy? Compare that to howall people in the UK regardless of origin and residence status enjoy the rule of law?

Brits are only in the UAE as guest workers...most immigrants to the UK plan on staying forever. That's a HUGE difference and is causing a lot of social problems (let's forget the economics) in Britain, especially in the native working class areas who feel increasingly disenfranchised in their own country. How this issue is dealt with will determine what Britain looks like and where it stands in the world in 50-100 years time. Perhaps some of us don't care about that as we'll be dead but as a parent I do care and so do millions of others.

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Old May 16th 2011, 4:34 pm
  #109  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
A very poor comparison - how many Brits can take a passport after five years? Most don't even stay that long and many contribute to critical areas like production, manufacturing, construction and technical services...the UAE could not function without immigrants. The UK is capable of survival if immigration dropped by 95% tomorrow.

How many Brits in the UAE have anything close to the same rights and treatment under law that Emiratis enjoy? Compare that to howall people in the UK regardless of origin and residence status enjoy the rule of law?

Brits are only in the UAE as guest workers...most immigrants to the UK plan on staying forever. That's a HUGE difference and is causing a lot of social problems (let's forget the economics) in Britain, especially in the native working class areas who feel increasingly disenfranchised in their own country. How this issue is dealt with will determine what Britain looks like and where it stands in the world in 50-100 years time. Perhaps some of us don't care about that as we'll be dead but as a parent I do care and so do millions of others.

N.
Of course there are huge differences between the way countries treat foreigners and their own people, but I'm talking about the speed of the change, and the UK doesn't even come close to the UAE. The changes in the Middle East have been massive over the last 40-50 years. I'm sure to the older locals it is unrecognisable.

But then I think culture change / mixing / assimilation has just exploded completely over the last half-century, with faster, more available travel, the rise of mass media and then the internet. Technology has accelerated what was used to be a slow process of cultural change through the rise of civilisations and conquest and the like. I think Dubai and the like are just microcosms of it.

And I'm not sure how well the UK would really survive if immigration dropped that much. The NHS would struggle for one.
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Old May 16th 2011, 6:45 pm
  #110  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
You are an economic migrant.

How do you feel about Polish plumbers in the UK? They are also economic migrants with, more often than not, no desire to stay long term.
It never did and still doesn't bother me. FYI, I am married to a Polish girl who came over to the UK to further her career. She has a MSc and worked for a year in a hotel doing work that locals didn't want to do because they were better off on the social.

Many immigrants come to the UK for work and actually work very hard doing jobs that many people in the UK don't want to do because they are lazy arses.

Yes, some immigrants do a shit job. As do many non-immigrants. You will also find that many of the people who you are quick to slate (in your ignorance, I have to say) have now made their money and gone back to Poland to build a new life.

Many Poles (amongst others) choose to stay in the UK. Yes, the have their Polski Skleps (Polish Shops) and Tesco et al now stock many Polish products because there is a market for it. They are integrating into society without (I believe) diluting English / British culture.

However, I do recognise that I am biased!

I know there are MANY that come to England / Britain just for the benefits and this must be rectified. But we also need to sort out our own 3rd and 4th generation lazy gits. THEY must be forced to do the jobs the 'immigrants' fill. It's not that difficult - work and get paid for the job done, be a lazy git and get nothing. (I know it's not that black and white, but you get the main jist).

It's not an easy one and politicians have been juggling with this since Enoch, but we are getting a little off-topic here.

I have no problem being an immigrant, or with immigrants. It's about the erosion of culture in the country that you find yourself in. I don't believe that I personally, do that in ANY country that I have lived. However, I will always educate those in the finery of England if they request!

Last edited by Daz968; May 16th 2011 at 6:59 pm.
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Old May 16th 2011, 7:57 pm
  #111  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Daz968 View Post
You will also find that many of the people who you are quick to slate (in your ignorance, I have to say) have now made their money and gone back to Poland to build a new life.
Kindly reference where I said this.
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Old May 16th 2011, 8:18 pm
  #112  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
Kindly reference where I said this.
I think I'm going to take a leaf out of your book and just not get too involved in these debates...stick to 3 lines and not take it too seriously. I've been locking horns with Norm for years on here and neither of us has really changed our stance. Well maybe I've moved a bit to the right, but that's as much down to my advancing years as anything, I reckon!
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Old May 17th 2011, 12:24 am
  #113  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Daz968 View Post
English first, British second, European - never.
I'll drink to that.
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Old May 17th 2011, 6:08 am
  #114  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by littlejimmy View Post
Of course there are huge differences between the way countries treat foreigners and their own people, but I'm talking about the speed of the change, and the UK doesn't even come close to the UAE. The changes in the Middle East have been massive over the last 40-50 years. I'm sure to the older locals it is unrecognisable.

But then I think culture change / mixing / assimilation has just exploded completely over the last half-century, with faster, more available travel, the rise of mass media and then the internet. Technology has accelerated what was used to be a slow process of cultural change through the rise of civilisations and conquest and the like. I think Dubai and the like are just microcosms of it.

And I'm not sure how well the UK would really survive if immigration dropped that much. The NHS would struggle for one.
I'm only 34 (going on 70 I admit) and I can assure you the changes in some parts of my hometown have been massive...and quite unwelcome in most cases. It's not like the UAE at all - we had running water, cars, streets and electricity in Britain long before the ghettos which divide British citizens along religious and ethnic lines sprung up. The UAE has changed for the better in overall terms - they have the modern world at their doorstep with all the medicines, transport, air conditioning and modern comforts when their grandfathers were riding camels.

The UAE is lucky the West brought their oil instead of exploiting them and stealing it like we used to...

Why would the NHS struggle if immigration dropped? A lack of doctors? Surely that would be offset by a drop in population as well? Why can't we train our own doctors - have we lost all sense of how to run a country without importing skills we already have and in many cases are world leaders in?

There's no comparison between the UK and UAE - the UAE was a pirate hub 100 years ago populated by Arabs, Iranians and Indians with no inventions, manufacturing on any noticeable scale or contribution to the global community. 100 years ago the UK was the largest Empire in recorded history...to even compare the two is pointless. Take away immigration in Britain and Britain will still have food, water, technology and innovation. Take away immigration in the UAE we'll see how well they do serving each other in restaurants, and how well they do sweeping their own streets, building their own buildings etc.

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Old May 17th 2011, 6:10 am
  #115  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by littlejimmy View Post
I think I'm going to take a leaf out of your book and just not get too involved in these debates...stick to 3 lines and not take it too seriously. I've been locking horns with Norm for years on here and neither of us has really changed our stance. Well maybe I've moved a bit to the right, but that's as much down to my advancing years as anything, I reckon!
It's not always about changing stances...it helps polish your own arguements, examine your own views and maybe even learn something - that's my experience anyway.

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Old May 17th 2011, 8:50 am
  #116  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by norsk View Post
In honour of The Dean who has pledged his allegiance to UKIP a number of times I share this picture that I took on the Saudi side of the Saudi-Bahrain Causeway..
Please tell me that picture is genuine.................!!! I can think of a few who'd love to see that!
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Old May 17th 2011, 9:27 am
  #117  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Norm. You are NOT 34. No bloody way!
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Old May 17th 2011, 9:29 am
  #118  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
It's not always about changing stances...it helps polish your own arguements, examine your own views and maybe even learn something - that's my experience anyway.

N.


Couldn't agree more - it's refreshing to have a good hard debate and come out the other side having learnt something new or appreciated / understood another perspective.

It may not change your own perspective or feelings, but at least having the maturity to appreciate that other people have differing views is a wise thing.

However, let me add...accepting another view / perspective is not the same as allowing your own culture and history to be brushed under the carpet. :-)
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Old May 17th 2011, 9:39 am
  #119  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
I'm only 34 (going on 70 I admit) and I can assure you the changes in some parts of my hometown have been massive...and quite unwelcome in most cases. It's not like the UAE at all - we had running water, cars, streets and electricity in Britain long before the ghettos which divide British citizens along religious and ethnic lines sprung up. The UAE has changed for the better in overall terms - they have the modern world at their doorstep with all the medicines, transport, air conditioning and modern comforts when their grandfathers were riding camels.

The UAE is lucky the West brought their oil instead of exploiting them and stealing it like we used to...

Why would the NHS struggle if immigration dropped? A lack of doctors? Surely that would be offset by a drop in population as well? Why can't we train our own doctors - have we lost all sense of how to run a country without importing skills we already have and in many cases are world leaders in?

There's no comparison between the UK and UAE - the UAE was a pirate hub 100 years ago populated by Arabs, Iranians and Indians with no inventions, manufacturing on any noticeable scale or contribution to the global community. 100 years ago the UK was the largest Empire in recorded history...to even compare the two is pointless. Take away immigration in Britain and Britain will still have food, water, technology and innovation. Take away immigration in the UAE we'll see how well they do serving each other in restaurants, and how well they do sweeping their own streets, building their own buildings etc.

N.
I'm not arguing with that, just saying that the speed of change in the Gulf has been much quicker. I'd estimate they've progressed about 500 years worth (in Western terms) in 50 years. Of course they've still got a way to go with things like democracy and a proper legal system.
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Old May 17th 2011, 10:08 am
  #120  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by The Dean View Post
Please tell me that picture is genuine.................!!! I can think of a few who'd love to see that!
Of course it is bloody genuine! It was taken on my iPhone in January this year.
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