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Do you consider yourself to be European?

Do you consider yourself to be European?

Old May 15th 2011, 9:08 am
  #76  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
I'm becoming an old fart and don't keep taps on the latest bands anymore - all I can give opinions on is what I see/know...which I stated when I posted. I live on the same planet as you - sorry I don't know everything about the music industry.

The BNP and EDL and Morris dancing? Is that all British culture is to you?

I'm amazed you know enough about me to tell me to live a little. Have you ever considered taking the James Randi paranormal challenge? You're obviously psychic...

Oh and I think our strength is in being a peculiar island that is not fully in Europe - that's much more fun than being a Euro slave.

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Here here.
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Old May 15th 2011, 9:44 am
  #77  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

So if I've read that right, if I'm not a fan of morris dancing I should give up my passport? A thousand years of history and it comes down to a bunch of blokes with bells and hankies?

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Old May 15th 2011, 9:47 am
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

For what it's worth (and I know that this particular debate could go on forever), I am a supporter of EDL but not necessarily BNP. They are different.

I also recognise that what I am about to say is a little 'off-thread'.

What amazes me is that the EDL / BNP and anyone who DARES to stand up for what they believe in (in respect of English / British nationalism - also note there is an Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Dutch and German DL) they are thugs. Have you ever witnessed or been on the receiving end of UAF 'thugs', anti-English / British taunts, the burning of your own flag in front of your own eyes? I doubt it.

The UAF have 'popular' support. Why? Similar reasons why CND had the vote 30 years ago (maybe). But why do UAF (thuggery) actions go unreported? Once again the power of the popular press and the fact that it would be 'wrong' to denounce the UAF (and similar organisations). The reason? Because the uneducated masses think that the EDL / BNP is the return of Naziism (you have to show that you are vehemently against the right wing, because otherwise it is the slippery slope to the reign of the brown-shirts). Utter tosh.

I can recall a time when if you flew the Union Jack or St. George cross, you were instantly branded a racist. Thank God for the European Cup when it was again 'OK' to fly your own flag.

As I said in a previous post, the press is very clever at twisting the truth of what actually happens. I do not condone thuggery at all - no matter where it comes from. But, the law in the UK (mmm, not English law or even British law) seems to favour the non-English / British. I have seen it many times and all this does is fuel the fire for the EDL / BNP (and other parties).

I could go on (like a bore) but I won't, unless anyone wishes to DISCUSS further. I am not interested in comments like 'you support XYZ therefore you are a thug and want to burn ABC'. (For XYZ please insert any institution you see fit and for ABC insert any race / article as you please).

No offence meant to anyone by the above - I just get pi$$ed off because people associate all right wing or nationalism with 'thugs'. We aren't all thugs.
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Old May 15th 2011, 9:56 am
  #79  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Daz968 View Post
1. I wish there were more members of the EDL and BNP, that way these groups would be more able to put forward a more substantial (moderate?) argument for their existence. Unfortunately, they are seen as purely far right organisations. This is not really fair - what they are TRYING to do is manage one piece of the jigsaw - and that is protecting what is English / British. Unfortunately (and our own lefty / liberal press plus the general English apathy have a lot to be held responsible for here) they are constantly slandered for their activities of PROTECTING what is English / British.
That's one of the fairest appraisals of the situation I've read in a long time. And I agree with you - the BNP (the EDL are not a political party - just an outlet for those who feel disenfranchised at best, a hooligan chanting organisation at worst). I agree that more people in the BNP would force them to moderate - however they have a dark past that is proving very hard to shake off.

Originally Posted by Daz968 View Post
2. Have you ever tried Morris Dancing / Country Dancing? Been on a real-ale / folk weekend. Morris Dancing and Country Dancing were compulsory when I was at school - it's called heritage! You learn about it's reasons for being. You may not like it - but don't slate it. This is exactly why the English heritage is being lost because the English are stating ignorant comments like yours and not defending it. (On the assumption that you are English - if you aren't then I suggest you do some reading / try it before you slate it.
I wish my school taught us that. And I agree with what you say about not slating customs like Moriss Dancing…I’ve been to folk dances and events and absolutely loved it (I think the Ale helps of course ). People don’t see these things in the spirit that they are in – to have fun as a community and nod to custom and tradition regardless of how odd it might seem. Have you ever seen Germans at the Oktoberfest?

Originally Posted by Daz968 View Post
3. Your last comment...once again, if you claim to be English / British, I suggest you give back your passport and go claim nationality somewhere else.
If we engaged in honour killing and wife beating as part of our culture I’d understand the hate but Britain’s folk culture (Gaelic and Saxon) is mostly pissed up country dancing in funny outfits for the most part…a bit of harmless fun. Why do we have to insist immigrants keep their own culture when it’s clearly caused social division and been a stumbling block to naturalisation and community cohesion?

N.
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Old May 15th 2011, 10:10 am
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post

If we engaged in honour killing and wife beating as part of our culture I’d understand the hate but Britain’s folk culture (Gaelic and Saxon) is mostly pissed up country dancing in funny outfits for the most part…a bit of harmless fun. Why do we have to insist immigrants keep their own culture when it’s clearly caused social division and been a stumbling block to naturalisation and community cohesion?

N.
I agree with this.

I'm not a bigot, a racist or blinkered, nor am I a member of the BNP / EDL or have any particular interest in either of them, or UKIP.

I find the immigration a problem. I love people moving to the UK to work and integrate and add to our country and makes us more diverse, it's brilliant. What I disagree with has been mentioned, making allowances and bending over backwards to accommodate anyone and everyone's beliefs no matter how fundamentally wrong they may be in my / your opinion.

The UK / GB is built on a Christian bedrock and I don't believe that should be altered or changed. Why should we allow foreign nationals or even 2nd / 3rd generation immigrants to practice their own religious law as if it sits over and above our own basic legal system?

It still sounds quite blinkered I know, but I don't understand why someone can get pushed through continentall Europe all the way to the UK for a free ride, why aren't they stopping in France? We're a soft touch and people know it.

Before someone responds with the obvious; Yes I'm living in a Muslim country / region and as a Westerner I love a beer, so I am being accommodated to be allowed to do something that is illegal here. I also stayed with my girlfriend unmarried and definitely had some sexytime with her which is all very illegal. The difference being, westerners in general have added value to this city and contributed massively to what it is, not like we are world savers but we have helped make / build / grow this city, along with people from all around the world....

Bit of a ramble, but my point it contribution and accepting where you are, showing a degree of respect for the place that is welcoming you with open arms and providing, no doubt, a lot of financial support to your existence.
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Old May 15th 2011, 10:14 am
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
If we engaged in honour killing and wife beating as part of our culture I’d understand the hate but Britain’s folk culture (Gaelic and Saxon) is mostly pissed up country dancing in funny outfits for the most part…a bit of harmless fun. Why do we have to insist immigrants keep their own culture when it’s clearly caused social division and been a stumbling block to naturalisation and community cohesion?N.
@ Norm_uk I will happily be entertained / enthralled or even disgusted by other cultures. But in my own land, I would like to reserve the right as to when I have to endure it or pleasured by it. MOREOVER, it shall not be at the sacrifice of my own culture - even those parts of my own culture that I may not personally appreciate.

...and I never did celebrate Europe Day.
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Old May 15th 2011, 10:17 am
  #82  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

I think it is important to define the difference between patriotism and nationalism. There's a huge difference between the two.

Patriotism is inclusive and generally makes people from different backgrounds have a common interest. It means being proud of your country, but is separate from any thoughts of who was there first or that someone can have more rights to any cultural aspect of living there. USA is perhaps the best example of how patriotism works..

Nationalism is a system which excludes large parts of society. It states quite clearly that 'we' are better than 'you', and if 'you' don't like it 'you' can leave. Some nationalists in the past have gone a lot further than this of course (I'm sure I don't need to give examples)..

Unfortunately people like EDL/BNP get these two things muddled up a lot of (most of?) the time, and as a result people generally view them as racist thugs.

As a non-British person living in the UK I always found it slight weird how people were so unwilling (ashamed?) to show any sign of patriotism. It had somehow been tainted by the actions of a few people with a bad agenda.
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Old May 15th 2011, 10:55 am
  #83  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by The Dean View Post
Powerful stuff, but you've hit on why I'm a UKIP man, not an EDL or BNP thug. Don't forget there are plenty of 'immigrants' or 'third-generation' British citizens who love our country and its values, including its heritage.
Thugs is an interesting term...most BNP members are regular people who hold questionable views. The EDL seems to be a punching bag for the UAF and other violent leftists. It would be nice to see someone who can speak without beating someone or being beaten upon. Literally and verbally!

And there are plenty who do not identify with our country or love it's values...especially in the new generation. It seems they want Sharia for all rather than the Britain we grew up in. All the London bombers were British born I believe...

Originally Posted by The Dean View Post
The EDL/BNP axis tries to convince us that 'mass' immigration is eroding our culture, conveniently ignoring the fact that many of those same immigrants want to - and do - immerse themselves in it.
The two are not officially related at all...why do you persist in using far left thinking to bash the far right? Is that going to shed light on the reality of the situation or encourage dialogue and workable solutions to immigration, social cohesion and the preservation of British cultures?

And mass immigration without firm integration policies WILL have an effect on any country's culture and tradition..states within states don't work. No one is talking about immigrants who have made Britain their home and integrated fully into the local way of doing things (which made the place attractive to come to in the first place!).

N.
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Old May 15th 2011, 11:15 am
  #84  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

All very interesting, but there's still the delicious irony of expats going on about immigration and patriotic pride.

Of course it's not that simple in reality...

As for the EDL, there is a lot of guff spoken and written about them, but it can't be denied that they do attract a certain knuckle-dragging element (both supporting and opposing them), and trouble seems to follow them. If they want an open and serious discussion, they need to address the reasons for this.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/new...osque/?ref=rss

Last edited by littlejimmy; May 15th 2011 at 11:31 am.
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Old May 15th 2011, 12:28 pm
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

OK, consider me taking the bite...

Excellent. Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I am talking about in respect of the press. Note the clear and unbiased journalism where the EDL is referenced:

Headline: Three arrested after English Defence League target Darlington mosque

1st paragraph: ...a "large scale disorder" in Darlington - believed to involve members of the far-right English Defence League.

Last paragraph: It is understood that the group may have attended an English Defence League rally on Teesside earlier in the day.

All you're doing is reaffirming prejudices by touting ill-conceived and poor journalism. Please don't do it.

FYI, ALL EDL public marches are strictly managed by themselves and in full co-operation with the local authorities and Police.
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Old May 15th 2011, 1:44 pm
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Daz968 View Post
OK, consider me taking the bite...



Excellent. Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I am talking about in respect of the press. Note the clear and unbiased journalism where the EDL is referenced:

Headline: Three arrested after English Defence League target Darlington mosque

1st paragraph: ...a "large scale disorder" in Darlington - believed to involve members of the far-right English Defence League.

Last paragraph: It is understood that the group may have attended an English Defence League rally on Teesside earlier in the day.

All you're doing is reaffirming prejudices by touting ill-conceived and poor journalism. Please don't do it.

FYI, ALL EDL public marches are strictly managed by themselves and in full co-operation with the local authorities and Police.
So basically all EDL events pass of peacefully, and if they don't it's either biased journalism or someone else's fault. OK.

You wanna watch out for those Muslamic ray guns, you know...
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Old May 15th 2011, 1:59 pm
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by littlejimmy View Post
So basically all EDL events pass of peacefully, and if they don't it's either biased journalism or someone else's fault. OK.

You wanna watch out for those Muslamic ray guns, you know...
That's not what I said at all. You suggested that we read an article which suggested that EDL thuggery took place in Darlington. Read the article and responded with my view on the subject-matter.

You gave a typical response from someone who puts across a different point of view to that which is written and read without any idea about what actually happened. Note, I did not condone what happened; I simply stated what was written. The written words state 'may' and 'believed' and there is no evidence (according to the words in the article) that this was an EDL target against a mosque. Please, get some perspective.

We obviously have different opinions and experiences of what happens in the real world, so I am not going to get into a pointless tittle-tattle with your silly (IMHO) comments. Forget it.
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Old May 15th 2011, 1:59 pm
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
Thugs is an interesting term...most BNP members are regular people who hold questionable views. The EDL seems to be a punching bag for the UAF and other violent leftists. It would be nice to see someone who can speak without beating someone or being beaten upon. Literally and verbally!

And there are plenty who do not identify with our country or love it's values...especially in the new generation. It seems they want Sharia for all rather than the Britain we grew up in. All the London bombers were British born I believe...



The two are not officially related at all...why do you persist in using far left thinking to bash the far right? Is that going to shed light on the reality of the situation or encourage dialogue and workable solutions to immigration, social cohesion and the preservation of British cultures?

And mass immigration without firm integration policies WILL have an effect on any country's culture and tradition..states within states don't work. No one is talking about immigrants who have made Britain their home and integrated fully into the local way of doing things (which made the place attractive to come to in the first place!).

N.
Agree with all of that............. and it's the first time that I (who never hides his UKIP affiliation) have been accused of using far left thinking.......... I take back the word 'thug', by the way (although they have one or two).

On a different point, I have often wondered why the Far Right are despised, but the Far Left are seen as lovable harmless eccentrics.........
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Old May 15th 2011, 2:34 pm
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Before someone responds with the obvious; Yes I'm living in a Muslim country / region and as a Westerner I love a beer, so I am being accommodated to be allowed to do something that is illegal here. I also stayed with my girlfriend unmarried and definitely had some sexytime with her which is all very illegal. The difference being, westerners in general have added value to this city and contributed massively to what it is, not like we are world savers but we have helped make / build / grow this city, along with people from all around the world....
It would be easier to find teeth on a hen than for you to get a passport here...even if you became a Muslim and spoke Arabic fluently it would still be extremely difficult to do so. That's why we are tolerated, we're like grandchildren...nan knows one day we'll have to go back to the parents so she's generally tolerant of us. Interesting half the immigration laws of the UAE violate the spirit of many UN charters. However they defend it as preserving their culture (ok for Arabs of the GCC....NOT ok for the Saxon and Gaelic types of Britain)

In the UK people who don't speak English (or any other languages like Welsh, Scots, Gaelic etc) have been getting passports for years. People who publically declare their opposition to western culture get passports too. People who kiss in public in the UAE are deported and banned. In the UK people who burn the national flag and call for the replacement of democratic governance with a 7th century legal and political theological system are given state benefits and their "human rights" are respected.

It's our fault entirely - not the immigrants.

N.
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Old May 15th 2011, 2:44 pm
  #90  
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Default Re: Do you consider yourself to be European?

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
It would be easier to find teeth on a hen than for you to get a passport here...even if you became a Muslim and spoke Arabic fluently it would still be extremely difficult to do so. That's why we are tolerated, we're like grandchildren...nan knows one day we'll have to go back to the parents so she's generally tolerant of us. Interesting half the immigration laws of the UAE violate the spirit of many UN charters. However they defend it as preserving their culture (ok for Arabs of the GCC....NOT ok for the Saxon and Gaelic types of Britain)

In the UK people who don't speak English (or any other languages like Welsh, Scots, Gaelic etc) have been getting passports for years. People who publically declare their opposition to western culture get passports too. People who kiss in public in the UAE are deported and banned. In the UK people who burn the national flag and call for the replacement of democratic governance with a 7th century legal and political theological system are given state benefits and their "human rights" are respected.

It's our fault entirely - not the immigrants.

N.
Amen.

But as greatly as it frustrates me, it's the way our country is. It won't change either.
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