scrubbedexpat141

Oh I'm massively excludable (if that's a word) from any debate based on personal experience...still, everyone is allowed an opinion.

Suppose if she's to blame for everything bad that happened then perhaps I should be singing the song after the recession caused my parents' bankruptcy and split? Is that how it works?

britexpat76

Her haters would think so mate.

scrubbedexpat141

Meh. Blame anyone for anything when possible. I don't really have much of an opinion I just dislike such venemous hatred for reasons that I can't fathom being pinned on one person.

Still, each to their own. I hope that people who consider celebrate the death of someone like this think twice before actually doing it.

Meow

How on earth could you possibly have come to that conclusion? Please don't be silly and twist the fact.

Police overtime, paid by the taxpayers, meant that many members of the police force received some very large pay packets for a period of time. Nothing partisan about that fact.

scrubbedexpat141

Yeah, twisting it, but if there was no strike, there was no overtime, no?

Anyway, twisting and shouting aside...if it is nothing partisan then it's not worth bringing up in the first place.

Meow

And do you understand why there was a strike?

At the risk of sounding patronising, it's best to understand the issues before making comments like that.

The unions had got out of hand, but the methods employed against some of them were uncalled for. Most of the miners were striking as they knew they would be unable to support their families and felt they had no other choice. For the majority, a strke is not something they wanted, but felt they had to do to make a point as whole areas were about to suffer mass unemployment. That's a horrible prospect, no matter the circumstances and the politics.

I also loathed Scargill, but the issue of the mimsers strikes is not black and white from any point of view. To suggest otherwise is disingenious.

scrubbedexpat141

OK, but there is no logic to it.

Pit makes no money, it loses money. Demanding pay rises and pits not to shut via strike action is going to do what exactly? Lose the pits more money, alienate large portions of the rest of the population, lose salary and end up with the same result?

Whichever way it went it was going to end up in the same result, businesses or sectors in a business that lose money will eventually close because nobody can realistically run at a loss forever. It's a horrible situation for the men working and the communities that depended on the revenue they put back in but the result was surely quite obvious and the only thing that can alter each individuals outcome is their own actions in response to it.

If the business I work for was losing money month in month out and was standalone with no backing, I'd bust my arse to try and make more to avoid being cut, if that was a struggle then I'd certainly not have the option let alone consider striking to demand my job is safe.

I'm not suggesting it is entirely black and white and there are thousands of different stories that people can tell.

It's blatantly not worth me commenting further. As I said before, I'm clearly excludable.

britexpat76

OleJanx

I think this is one of the most coherent posts on here. There appears to be too much derision poured onto one individuals head. After all, Thatcher didn't do everything single-handedly; moronic cabinet ministers helped with unseemly enthusiasm.

Meow

You aren't excludable. I think it's wrong for those of us old enough to remember to say that the views of anyone younger are invalid. If that were the case none of us would have a view on Hitler/Stalin/Mao/Ghandi etc. What is relevant is that people read around the topic and see it from the prespective of the time, not just read one newspaper.

Yes, the pits would probably have had to have closed eventually, but for me the issue was how it was done. The unions and the people were crushed. It could have been handled far more sensitively and far more time taken with a real effort to assist the thousands of people affected. The awful thing is that people in some of the areas affected are still dealing with the after effects.

The role of government is not just financial, it's also pastoral and that was the failing of the Thatcher years. You refer to businesses, but these were nationalised industries not private businesses. If you took the same view the NHS would be fully privatised tomorrow as it makes no money. A government subsidy is not always a bad thing as you have to look at the bigger picture.

scrubbedexpat141

I can't really disagree with the bit in bold. Do you think the way it was needed to bring the strike to an end as quickly as possible or would dragging it out for longer made it easier? (That's an actual question not a smart arse statement with a ? on the end).

Good point re NHS, but are they not different entities? NHS is there to provide a service to the public, the mines were meant to make money?

scrubbedexpat141

Bollocks. Commented again.

I must like talking with you Meow.

Meow

That's 'cos I'm lovely and very rational

Meow

Ideally, had the closures been handled better and Scargill not been such a difficult man, there may not have been strikes, or at least not to the same extent. You need to go back to why there were strikes, not just how they were ended.

I think Scargill and his people did his members a disservice in the way much of it was handled, but Maggie and her people are also to blame.

You see, it's never 100% one or the other, but both sides, timing and circumstances.

Blimey, I'm rational and open-minded today.



EDIT - yes re NHS, but mining was a nationalised industry. It was also for the people's benefit. (Theoretically owned by the people, like the gas and water we owned that she stole and sold off.)

scrubbedexpat141

I think it's probably more because you're not insulting.

I guess that's what I'm getting at, it's like a mini-war. There is never one factor that creates the win/loss/stalemate, it's always a combination of factors, their timing and their effect.

Still, bleating support or damning criticism are both blind without the measure of reason.

Good post. Thanks.