Go Back  British Expats > Living & Moving Abroad > Middle East > The Sand Pit
Reload this Page >

Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Old Sep 2nd 2012, 12:32 pm
  #61  
MODERATOR
 
Norm_uk's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,265
Norm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by seven seas View Post
Wow so they consulted their crystal ball and saw that Japan would take millions of deaths to subdue.
Are you being deliberately facetious?

Operation Downfall, the plan for the invasion of Japan which was cancelled as the Japanese surrendered after the second A-Bomb would have been horrendous. A fiercely loyal Imperial Army was already making plans to shore up the few places you can invade the Japanese main islands properly from. There would also have been a large and hostile civillian population quite willing to die for the Emperor too. Deaths would have been high on both sides if that had happened.

A study by the Joint Chiefs of Staff estimated 90 days of fighting to establish and secure the main Honshu island would have been half a million American dead (and far more Japanese dead). If the fighting went on another 90 days to capture Tokyo it would have been around 1.4million dead just for the US alone. The plans to capture Japan made D-Day look like a training exercise...

William Shockley's study for the Secretary of War estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7-4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities.

None of these estimates were based on crystal balls but came from very serious and educated people. You have a pitifully childish mentality towards the greatest conflict in human history.

N.
Norm_uk is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 1:15 pm
  #62  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,869
seven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

So instead of invading Japan they just nuked it. Had no-one invented the concept of a third option back then?
seven seas is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 1:49 pm
  #63  
Hit 16's
 
Bahtatboy's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Bahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond reputeBahtatboy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by seven seas View Post
So instead of invading Japan they just nuked it. Had no-one invented the concept of a third option back then?
I think most people would have wanted one, except those in power in Japan. The Emperor had virtually no authority, and most elements of the Japanese armed forces would probably not only have fought to the death but also operated something similar to a scorched earth policy. Although I question the dropping of the second bomb, the solution taken was almost certainly the lesser of two evils.

Do you have a suggestion of what a third option might have been?
Bahtatboy is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 2:12 pm
  #64  
BE Forum Addict
 
Boomhauer's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,460
Boomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
I think most people would have wanted one, except those in power in Japan. The Emperor had virtually no authority, and most elements of the Japanese armed forces would probably not only have fought to the death but also operated something similar to a scorched earth policy. Although I question the dropping of the second bomb, the solution taken was almost certainly the lesser of two evils.

Do you have a suggestion of what a third option might have been?
The US should have dropped the bomb on an uninhabited Japanese Island or on the mainland in a sparsely populated area. That would be enough to send the Japanese a message.

Even if the Americans thought the above was not going to convince the Japanese, they could have given the Japanese more time after the 1st bomb, instead of dropping the 2nd only 3 days later. It wasn't like Japan was going to mount an offensive as their force projection was destroyed , so the US could have just waited.

They could have followed a plan of waiting from the very start, without even resorting to the A-Bombs, they could have cut embargoed Japan.
Boomhauer is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 2:56 pm
  #65  
Millhouse is not a meme
 
Millhouse's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,439
Millhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond reputeMillhouse has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy View Post
Do you have a suggestion of what a third option might have been?
Pop round to their house with a homemade cake and a box of matcha.
Millhouse is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 8:46 pm
  #66  
MODERATOR
 
Norm_uk's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,265
Norm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by seven seas View Post
So instead of invading Japan they just nuked it. Had no-one invented the concept of a third option back then?
They dropped two bombs killing around 240,000 people - they didn't nuke the whole of Japan.

What would you suggest as a third option looking back with your evidently immense knowledge of military history?

N.
Norm_uk is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 9:01 pm
  #67  
MODERATOR
 
Norm_uk's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,265
Norm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by Boomhauer View Post
The US should have dropped the bomb on an uninhabited Japanese Island or on the mainland in a sparsely populated area. That would be enough to send the Japanese a message.

Even if the Americans thought the above was not going to convince the Japanese, they could have given the Japanese more time after the 1st bomb, instead of dropping the 2nd only 3 days later. It wasn't like Japan was going to mount an offensive as their force projection was destroyed , so the US could have just waited.

They could have followed a plan of waiting from the very start, without even resorting to the A-Bombs, they could have cut embargoed Japan.
Always easy to look back and second guess people's actions during Total War...and just as easy to dismiss those guesses.

Japan was already embargoed. It responded by invading much of South East Asia in addition to years of brutalising China and Korea. It was declared Total War - the sheer brutality of the Japanese against anyone they fought, the millions of civilians experimented on, raped, put to the sword, babies spiked on bayonets, the death marches, use of chemical weapons, the poisoning of rivers when they were pushed back by the Chinese and the countless atrocities Japan has never truly apologised for make two nukes for the price of peace seem quite a good deal.

Let's put the total dead in the two nuclear bombs into perspective of the time: Upper estimates state 240,000 died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'll take 250,000 for the sake of rounding numbers.

Then we can look at the Battle of Kursk alone which tallied some 250,000+ deaths - and by total dead that was number eight in the battles of world war two. To give you an idea of how nasty world war two was - 1.2 million died in the capturing of Berlin and the ending of the Third Reich...that's just one city and it happened in about 20 days. (another comparison: the total dead in the Arab-Israeli conflict which everyone is always harping on about from 1947 until today has been around 100,000...including civilians - more people have died in road accidents in the USA in that time probably).

So Uncle Sam ended the war with two bombs and a fraction of the human life cost of the top 8 battles of the war...number one being Stalingrad where between 1.2 and 1.7 million people died. It was a nasty war and the numbers show no one was giving up easily on either side.

Japan is now one of the richest and most advanced countries in the world - why is this even being brought up? The topic at hand is state sponsored child rape in Iran and Saudi Arabia not military history.

N.
Norm_uk is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 9:02 pm
  #68  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Sally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by britexpat76 View Post
You are allowed to marry when you are deemed an adult, (some phase of puberty). Girls are classed as ready at this ridiculous age and boys its 15.
My dentist's wife is Iranian and was telling me her parents married when they were both 13. She wasn't necessarily condoning it but did say they had been happy all their lives.
Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
They dropped two bombs killing around 240,000 people - they didn't nuke the whole of Japan.

N.
So that makes it OK then.

You are mental.
Sally Redux is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 9:16 pm
  #69  
Shark Fisherman
 
britexpat76's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2012
Location: Doha
Posts: 4,568
britexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond reputebritexpat76 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by Sally Redux View Post
My dentist's wife is Iranian and was telling me her parents married when they were both 13. She wasn't necessarily condoning it but did say they had been happy all their lives.


So that makes it OK then.

You are mental.
Not too sure why you quoted me there when I was answering someones question about the legal ages. I am also sure there are childhood sweethearts that meet at 13 and get married in the west, some will work some wont. I can guarantee though that both parents would not be letting them have sex at that age and if they did I hope the authorities would take the appropriate action............

And Norm is also absolutely right with the figures when it comes to lives lost. They were far less fatalities by dropping the bombs, not that I condone it. But when people argue about lives lost the facts are there for all to see Bombs v Land War.
britexpat76 is offline  
Old Sep 2nd 2012, 10:50 pm
  #70  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Sally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond reputeSally Redux has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by britexpat76 View Post
Not too sure why you quoted me there when I was answering someones question about the legal ages. I am also sure there are childhood sweethearts that meet at 13 and get married in the west, some will work some wont. I can guarantee though that both parents would not be letting them have sex at that age and if they did I hope the authorities would take the appropriate action............

And Norm is also absolutely right with the figures when it comes to lives lost. They were far less fatalities by dropping the bombs, not that I condone it. But when people argue about lives lost the facts are there for all to see Bombs v Land War.
I just wondered if they had got married below the legal age.

I think the point is that it's more difficult to lay down the law to other cultures when we are obviously not blameless.
Sally Redux is offline  
Old Sep 3rd 2012, 4:11 am
  #71  
BE Forum Addict
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,869
seven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond reputeseven seas has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Waiting between bomb 1 and 2, or using them on an uninhabited island, as Boomhauer suggested.


250,000 does sound like a bargain when compared to the millions in estimates. Still, it is chilling to imagine an entire city looking up to see death falling from a plane.


The dentists' wife's parents who got married at thirteen may have worked because that's the way things were back then. Iran is much more urbanised now and that kind of child abuse would be far less common now. It simply would not work practically to have children getting married, for many of the same reasons why it wouldn't work in any civilised place.


The Iranian authorities are merely posturing (which they love doing as we all know) , in this case they are trying to keep up with the Saudilanders. Over there it is still possible to rape a child and still be considered respectable. Nobody even has to know you've just gotten married, let alone to whom and how. If you're a man.
seven seas is offline  
Old Sep 3rd 2012, 4:31 am
  #72  
BE Enthusiast
 
Joined: May 2011
Location: Dubai
Posts: 365
Maxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond reputeMaxima has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by seven seas View Post
The Iranian authorities are merely posturing (which they love doing as we all know) , in this case they are trying to keep up with the Saudilanders. Over there it is still possible to rape a child and still be considered respectable. Nobody even has to know you've just gotten married, let alone to whom and how. If you're a man.
One of the more disturbing things i have read is about a Saudi 80+ man who got an "implant" before marrying a girl in her teens, and how the man was congratulated in hospital by his family members, including children, on the successful "operation"
Maxima is offline  
Old Sep 3rd 2012, 6:37 am
  #73  
BE Forum Addict
 
Boomhauer's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,460
Boomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond reputeBoomhauer has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by Norm_uk View Post
Always easy to look back and second guess people's actions during Total War...and just as easy to dismiss those guesses.
The war was effectively ended before the bombs were dropped, America had all the time in the world to deal with Japan. So it wasn't a war at that point .

Japan was already embargoed. It responded by invading much of South East Asia in addition to years of brutalising China and Korea. It was declared Total War - the sheer brutality of the Japanese against anyone they fought, the millions of civilians experimented on, raped, put to the sword, babies spiked on bayonets, the death marches, use of chemical weapons, the poisoning of rivers when they were pushed back by the Chinese and the countless atrocities Japan has never truly apologised for make two nukes for the price of peace seem quite a good deal.
You are talking about events that happened Before the US destroyed Japan's ability to invade and project force. Just prior to the A-bombs, Japan was effectively defeated, Japan had no navy to speak of, she could not move out of Japan and do anything.

So Uncle Sam ended the war with two bombs and a fraction of the human life cost of the top 8 battles of the war...number one being Stalingrad where between 1.2 and 1.7 million people died. It was a nasty war and the numbers show no one was giving up easily on either side.

Japan is now one of the richest and most advanced countries in the world - why is this even being brought up? The topic at hand is state sponsored child rape in Iran and Saudi Arabia not military history.

N.
Uncle Sam didn't need to drop the A-Bombs, Japan was over, she could not move out of her island. So to compare the deaths from the A-Bombs to that of some WW2 battles is erroneous because there was no risk of losing the war in the days just prior to dropping the A-Bombs.
Boomhauer is offline  
Old Sep 3rd 2012, 6:40 am
  #74  
Excess Baggage
 
littlejimmy's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
littlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond reputelittlejimmy has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

So, to summarise all these logical fallacies and wild conjecture...

Should we nuke Iran and Saudi?
littlejimmy is offline  
Old Sep 3rd 2012, 7:48 am
  #75  
MODERATOR
 
Norm_uk's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,265
Norm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond reputeNorm_uk has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Child marriage in Iran & KSA

Originally Posted by Sally Redux View Post
My dentist's wife is Iranian and was telling me her parents married when they were both 13. She wasn't necessarily condoning it but did say they had been happy all their lives.
Are you suggesting that based on this anedotal evidence that Iran's policy of now allowing girls as young as 9 to be married is not something we should be concerned about (especially since we can instead go off on completely unrelated subjects like nuclear weapons use in world war two, right?).

I'm curious if you would be happy seeing your own daughter married off at that age - especially when the most common way is for much older men to marry young girls. And some of these girls die because their bodies are not mature enough to handle sexual intercourse and/or childbirth?

What exactly are you trying to say? Please explain yourself? Are you condoning paedophilia or just saying sometimes it works out ok?

Originally Posted by Sally Redux View Post
So that makes it OK then.

You are mental.
I was not attempting to evaluate the moral implications of this or provide a justification. I was providing an explanation based on what the people at the time did, thought and said about it.

You don't seem to know the difference between explanations and justifications. But go ahead and keep calling me mental - as you keep jumping to false conclusions, providing ambiguous statements which appear to condone child marriage.

N.
Norm_uk is offline  

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.