Burka Ban
Apr 20th 2011, 11:05 am
#136
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Apr 20th 2011, 11:09 am
#137
Excess Baggage
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
Re: Burka Ban
Um, wasn't this about 700 years after the Romans established the province of Arabia Petraea? I believer they made it all the way down to Madain Saleh...
Oh come on - there have always been battles over land in this part of the world. Many times the Muslims were aggressors expanding into European-held territory. Many times the Europeans were aggressors expanding into Muslim-held territory.
Oh come on - there have always been battles over land in this part of the world. Many times the Muslims were aggressors expanding into European-held territory. Many times the Europeans were aggressors expanding into Muslim-held territory.
Apr 20th 2011, 11:31 am
#138
MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,373
Re: Burka Ban
No crusader ever set foot in Mecca or Medina. They only went after lands stolen from them. Christianity was founded by a guy who told people to "turn the other cheek" when hit and his early followers were persecuted brutally for several centuries after he died.. Islam was founded by a chap who said "slay the unbelievers wherever you find them" and his followers founded a massive empire after he died. But hey, it's the bloody Roman's fault now apparently
Pax.
Apr 20th 2011, 11:39 am
#139
Excess Baggage
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
Re: Burka Ban
Those last 2 World Wars....started by Muslims, they were.
Apr 20th 2011, 11:43 am
#140
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Disneyland, Dubai
Posts: 15,887
Re: Burka Ban
Norm - why do you live in the Arab / Muslim world? I'm always amazed at your ability to rant pages and pages about it, dig up loads of (frankly unprovable) "facts" about it and yet still live here.
If it's just the money then that really is very sad.
If it's just the money then that really is very sad.
Apr 20th 2011, 11:58 am
#141
Not an evil hypnotist
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,975
Re: Burka Ban
And the Persians were there long before the Romans - are you suggesting the Islamic conquests were an act of revenge for something the Romans did? Given most Arabs didn't even have writing 2000 years ago I find that amazing that tribesmen would have such longer and bitter memories of being given access to a massive Roman/Persian trade network, advanced medicines, good roads and communication, law and order and of course...the aquaduct! (ok that's a bit tongue in cheek but the point is valid).
The Islamic conquests were what they were. So were the European Christian conquests.
What did these right and proper Christians do upon entering Jerusalem in 1099, exactly?
The point is, they no more "owned" these lands than the Muslim invaders did.
Christianity was founded by a guy who told people to "turn the other cheek" when hit and his early followers were persecuted brutally for several centuries after he died.. Islam was founded by a chap who said "slay the unbelievers wherever you find them" and his followers founded a massive empire after he died. But hey, it's the bloody Roman's fault now apparently
Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors. Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you.
Ahem.
There have been battles everywhere on earth - but in this case it's clear who started the cycle we see carrying on today, and it's clear that a very nasty ideology sits behind this which will kill it's own as readily as an outsider...even when the olive branch is held out it's thrown back in our faces. Even when we share the fruits of our technology and medicine and agriculture we are despised.
I'm not arguing that there isn't a lot wrong with some Islamic societies (as there is with some Christian, or Buddhist, or Jewish societies). However, I don't regard Islam as any better or worse in terms of its scripture than any other religion.
And again, I am sure there are many Muslims down the years who could have written your last sentence.
Apr 20th 2011, 12:03 pm
#142
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Dubai ex Edinburgh
Posts: 279
Re: Burka Ban
I think I'd rather have a weisbier....
Apology accepted. I don't know the BNP's true ideology but I suspect it is about using legitimate grass roots concerns by native Britons about their identity, jobs and status in the face of a huge rise in immigration and skewed social policies while an unconcerned middle class looks on to push forward a neo-facist agenda under the guise of nationalism...fairly subversive - the flip of the multiculturalist/leftie elite. A coin the country could do without regardless of how it's flipped
To answer your questions:
I like a complicated world...gives me more to think about.
N.
Apology accepted. I don't know the BNP's true ideology but I suspect it is about using legitimate grass roots concerns by native Britons about their identity, jobs and status in the face of a huge rise in immigration and skewed social policies while an unconcerned middle class looks on to push forward a neo-facist agenda under the guise of nationalism...fairly subversive - the flip of the multiculturalist/leftie elite. A coin the country could do without regardless of how it's flipped
To answer your questions:
- Why do "pure" Western Europeans have to integrate with foreigners who come to their country? Surely that is something that is supposed to be the other way around? What do the natives owe people who turn up and won't adopt local custom (and in some cases won't even speak the language) but expect to given respect and the same rights at the locals?
That said my family is made up of "pure" Western Europeans and "ethnic minorities"...it works because we all have the same culture and don't subscribe to divisive tribalism within a nation. The cold truth is simple: if you go to someone's country to settle and want to become a citizen and compatriot you have to change...not the people who already live there. Especially if they are technologically and culturally superior to you and don't need you really for anything other than manual labour. - First experience of Islamic terrorist in Britain without opening a history book is a rather dishonest way to pose a question because you're asking me to exclude 1400 years of theft, rape, murder and annexation by Muslims virtually all over the world and bring up something in modern times as if it were isolated or simply to do with British foreign policy or whatever it is we are supposed to have done wrong. But if you want an answer I'd say the Rushdie affair was a starting point which coincided with a larger Muslim population. That was the first wake-up call of recent times.
- It's an issue because some Muslims blow us up in our own cities, and because many more preach hatred of us and our way of life. It's an issue because it is a ridiculous garment based on treating women as property rather than as human beings. It’s not even in the koran. It's always been an issue but people have been scared of being called racist so keep quiet. Few people can see a Burka and not have a reaction of amazement and suspicion.
- So British foreign policy is to blame? I see the proverbial termites have dined well and long in the West. What a ridiculous suggestion that British foreign policy should be dictated by a group of anti-British anti-secular thugs who should be deported so we don't get blown up. In the 1930s many people felt they should bow to the dictates of a certain German chancellor in order to escape the uncomfortable reality that some people cannot be reasoned with and need to be dealt with using force...we can see where that got us. Also, if you see what these bombers are saying you'll know they are saying the same things as the people who invaded Europe in the 8th Century onwards right up until the last open effort by the Ottomans bring Europe into Dar Al Islam.
- Saudi's were not the only people behind the 911 attacks. It was an international effort likely funded by some Saudis...and the attacks had huge support from extremists from the sub-continent. Also, good police work dictates questioning people who follow that ideology - would you rather they arrest a few Methodists and Chinese Buddhists so it doesn't appear to be racially motivated profiling?
I like a complicated world...gives me more to think about.
N.
. Weisbier is a good choice. Rational reply to your The Sun style anecdotal rant (sorry weasel copied your words)
1) Integration is a two-way affair. Not mandatory, but good if a host initiate –is that not part of a British culture? I bet you don’t even know true British values and won't even pass the British citizenship test, The rest what you said, I agree.
2) Good reminder, agree with regards to Rushdie affair.
I think the Church have a much longer streak than the Muslims (theft, rape, murder and annexation by Christians virtually all over the world and not to forget slavery, regime changes, funding extremism to capitalise on resources, un-necessary wars in modern era etc.) but hey let’s not start a new debate but do you agree?
3) Agreed but that’s a recent view it was never a problem. This hatred has begun because acts of home grown extremism and terrorism but there are a few in the pond to blame not the entire community. Anyway i have said before personally I don’t want to see burka’s or burkini’s in Britain.
4) Yes British foreign policy is to blame for what has happened and going on in our country. My suggestion is not ridiculous your views are outdated and it shows your ignorance. You cannot first foster a community based on freedom of religion, human rights, cultural diversity etc and then expect that the citizens who have born and bred in Britain would not voice their concerns if you condemn their faith and values just because you promised BP some oil or a pledge to keep Israel happy at all cost. The whole build-up to Iraq war was around portraying Islam and Muslims are evil and a threat to western civilisation – this isn’t a new concept though both East and West are a threat to each other. This ‘Home & Foreign’ policy gave opportunity to the extremists to brainwash a few individuals who you and I once use to socialise with. You are probably an atheist and they hate religions –I don’t blame them.
5) Partially Agree, however thousands were arrested just because they were practising their religion and had no approbation for terrorist activities, 99% were never charged with any offence but their lives were completely ruined. This sort of thing cultivates more aggression and extremism and provides a breed for suckers like Isalm4UK.
One suggestion, stop reading those f****ng 18th century books and the SUN and live in a real world to understand real issues. Stop whingeing, and for once use your voting rights correctly to select a government that fulfil your wishes. Make Britain an intolerant bastard like Saudi –they also do not tolerate the intolerant and are never interested to deal with the issues. And if you do not succeed then Shut up and put up with it because you are a minority, consistent with your message I guess –waiting for the next general election then.
I still prefer an un-complicated, less pessimistic, a little tolerant and a culturally diverse world as opposed to racial colonies build on religious beliefs.
Last edited by sherri; Apr 20th 2011 at 1:29 pm.
Apr 20th 2011, 1:01 pm
#144
Excess Baggage
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
Re: Burka Ban
He cannot sell his services back home because a lot has changed since 732A.D and he can’t be arsed keeping up with the changes. Having said that, FSA are a real pain in the arse when it comes to policy making/changes.
It seems he thinks he is a roman emperor sorry a roman Independent Financial Advisor. Only the Arabs would buy financial products from him or rely on his ‘knowledge’ they also live on the planet cuckoo.
It seems he thinks he is a roman emperor sorry a roman Independent Financial Advisor. Only the Arabs would buy financial products from him or rely on his ‘knowledge’ they also live on the planet cuckoo.
Apr 20th 2011, 1:05 pm
#145
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Dubai ex Edinburgh
Posts: 279
Re: Burka Ban
His Financial blog is strangely updated and pretty useful but this could be written by his PA. Anyway, I believe he is a nice chap in real life just a little out of touch though.
Last edited by sherri; Apr 20th 2011 at 1:12 pm.
Apr 20th 2011, 1:18 pm
#147
ex-expat
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: in front of my computer - in sunny Sussex!
Posts: 2,162
Re: Burka Ban
... on the other hand, think to Spain, which really prospered in Moorish rule, who later got kicked out by a very bloodthirsty pair of Christians.
Apr 20th 2011, 3:16 pm
#149
MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,373
Re: Burka Ban
We can compare the origins of the two religions though and there major differences do spring up. In the century following the death of Muhammad (assuming he actually existed, because like Jesus we have no contemporary references until almost a century after he died) Muslims took advantage of the weaknesses of the Roman and Persian Empires (who had been at it for about a hundred years are were pretty much spent militarily and economically) to conquer almost a third of what was the Christian world.
A century after Jesus was supposed to have died Christians were busy being thrown to the lions, not resisting and praying in secret and generally following the example of their founder…sadly this didn’t last but they deserve an applause for having being founded on far superior morality than their competitor whose followers seem to be devoid of any deep spirituality. There is simply no comparison in the feeling of peace and tranquillity one feels in a Christian monastery or ancient church than a Mosque (especially when that fellow starts yelling and screaming on a Friday afternoon!).
We’ve seen lots of brutality in the name of both religions. The tragedy of lost cultures and civilisations due to the followers of Islam and Christianity is something we cannot easily comprehend. However the cold hard facts are one religion was founded by a man who preached peace, turning the other cheek, rights for women and the oppressed and the other led men into war against his enemies, had his detractors murdered and told his followers to fight and struggle until all religion was for his version of the invisible man in the sky.
Bring back Odin and Zeus...all is forgiven
N.
Apr 20th 2011, 3:36 pm
#150
MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Dubai
Posts: 6,373
Re: Burka Ban
It's always a sign of desperation and failure when people resort to personal attacks...in way you have done me a huge favour because you've shown your qualities to everyone.
I'm a known ranter and contrarian with strong views on many issues and topics. I've been in these forums for years and never needed to resort to trying to question people’s professional conduct as a means to win a debate on a very narrow subject.
A number of people on these forums do know me personally and professionally and some of them disagree with my views and I with theirs. Big grown up people can do that and still get along just fine, why they even do business with each other and go to each other’s birthday parties.
To suggest that I am somehow professionally incompetent or unethical because of what you think my political views are (based on forum posts or a blog I don't update to boot) borders on slander and libel. People are sued successfully for less than that. It’s only the fact that I am known far better by others than by you and am thus quite secure in my reputation (even if I am annoying on certain subjects) that keeps me from reporting your comments to be honest.
N.
I'm a known ranter and contrarian with strong views on many issues and topics. I've been in these forums for years and never needed to resort to trying to question people’s professional conduct as a means to win a debate on a very narrow subject.
A number of people on these forums do know me personally and professionally and some of them disagree with my views and I with theirs. Big grown up people can do that and still get along just fine, why they even do business with each other and go to each other’s birthday parties.
To suggest that I am somehow professionally incompetent or unethical because of what you think my political views are (based on forum posts or a blog I don't update to boot) borders on slander and libel. People are sued successfully for less than that. It’s only the fact that I am known far better by others than by you and am thus quite secure in my reputation (even if I am annoying on certain subjects
) that keeps me from reporting your comments to be honest.N.