Burka Ban

Old Apr 13th 2011, 10:12 am
  #16  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Don't be daft, dude. There's a world of difference between covering your face with black cloth so no one can see what you look like and wearing a baseball cap. The only people in the west who wear black face sacks are bank robbers.

People should have the right to wear what they want....within reason. We don't allow people to go about naked in public or walk down the streets in only a bra or briefs. Our sense of personal rights needs to be balanced with a sense of responsibility as a member of a larger socity.


Originally Posted by weasel central
Well I don't see how covering your face, be it Hijab, baseball cap and shades, hoodie, motorcycle helmet, halloween mask, ski balaclava or whatever makes any difference (except in the security situations I mentioned for identification).

The society you speak of is your perception and your side of it, it will always be subjective. There is no real homogenous society in any country so the point to follow society that you are part of, is moot.

Anyhow my point isnt that I am supporting Muslim culture but I am supporting the right to do what you want within the laws of the country. Now that this is the law, they will have to follow it but I don't believe the law should have been passed in the first place.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 10:43 am
  #17  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by weasel central
Well I don't see how covering your face, be it Hijab, baseball cap and shades, hoodie, motorcycle helmet, halloween mask, ski balaclava or whatever makes any difference (except in the security situations I mentioned for identification).

The society you speak of is your perception and your side of it, it will always be subjective. There is no real homogenous society in any country so the point to follow society that you are part of, is moot.

Anyhow my point isnt that I am supporting Muslim culture but I am supporting the right to do what you want within the laws of the country. Now that this is the law, they will have to follow it but I don't believe the law should have been passed in the first place.
the fact is that within our culture, openness and honesty are closely linked to being able to see the person you're interacting with, so by opposition, anyone who covers their face is counted as a suspicious no-gooder, which a/ isn't very helpful to anyone and b/ can instill suspicion and fear in some people (isn't that what this whole knee-jerk reaction is based upon?!).

People have the right to go about their business without fear. It's similar to the idea that I am not allowed to walk around town with my t'ai chi broadsword (which is no more a weapon than a baseball bat).
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 10:58 am
  #18  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Hello.Kitty
the fact is that within our culture, openness and honesty are closely linked to being able to see the person you're interacting with, so by opposition, anyone who covers their face is counted as a suspicious no-gooder, which a/ isn't very helpful to anyone and b/ can instill suspicion and fear in some people(isn't that what this whole knee-jerk reaction is based upon?!).

People have the right to go about their business without fear. It's similar to the idea that I am not allowed to walk around town with my t'ai chi broadsword (which is no more a weapon than a baseball bat).
Its fear of the unknown, be it a hijab or a person from another country or race, its not specific. Except this law in France is specific.

If people think that identifying threats is a simple as to point to the person with the hijab or broadsword, that the bad guys are wearing name tags or can be discerned by dress only, they are very misguided.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 11:05 am
  #19  
hmmmm...nice
 
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by weasel central
Its fear of the unknown, be it a hijab or a person from another country or race, its not specific. Except this law in France is specific.

If people think that identifying threats is a simple as to point to the person with the hijab or broadsword, that the bad guys are wearing name tags or can be discerned by dress only, they are very misguided.
yeah...I can't say I've ever felt threatend by a group of women in veils, but I have felt uncomfortable having to pass groups of teenage guys (hoodied or not)...

I don't really see any issues with the whole face veils, it's not making me knee jerk...I am glad I don't have to wear it, but that's about as far as my feeling goes.

whenever I have female Arab clients I ask them if they don't ever feel like just going out uncovered, and they all had the same reaction, that to them they would feel like they are naked, that it's just part of their daily routine, just like putting your shoes on...they can't see why 'we' would make such a big deal out of it while they, the ones that are wearing it, don't...
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 12:41 pm
  #20  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by MataHari
whenever I have female Arab clients I ask them if they don't ever feel like just going out uncovered, and they all had the same reaction, that to them they would feel like they are naked, that it's just part of their daily routine, just like putting your shoes on...they can't see why 'we' would make such a big deal out of it while they, the ones that are wearing it, don't...
That's fine. In the Arab World. Not in Europe.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 12:46 pm
  #21  
hmmmm...nice
 
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
That's fine. In the Arab World. Not in Europe.
I am not anal about all those divisions...the world is a small place these days.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 12:56 pm
  #22  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by MataHari
I am not anal about all those divisions...the world is a small place these days.
If we could either start afresh and all be homogenous, or fulfil John Lennon's utopia of no race or religion, then Yes, the world would not be divided and would be small in your context. But neither of those is going to happen, and most Europeans don't want their homelands' cultures swamped by something alien. In exactly the same way that Arabs don't, generally, want Western culture taking over their own.

I bet you might get a bit anal if you and your kids were transported 50 years into the future by when some countries in Europe will be predominantly Muslim and your kids were forced to have Islamic teachings at school, at the exclusion of any other religion.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 1:01 pm
  #23  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

I have read a woman was fined today for wearing a face veil in public.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 1:09 pm
  #24  
hmmmm...nice
 
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
If we could either start afresh and all be homogenous, or fulfil John Lennon's utopia of no race or religion, then Yes, the world would not be divided and would be small in your context. But neither of those is going to happen, and most Europeans don't want their homelands' cultures swamped by something alien. In exactly the same way that Arabs don't, generally, want Western culture taking over their own.

I bet you might get a bit anal if you and your kids were transported 50 years into the future by when some countries in Europe will be predominantly Muslim and your kids were forced to have Islamic teachings at school, at the exclusion of any other religion.
and banning the veils is going to prevent that...hmmmm
I don't think it works that way, I think it may even work against it...make those who aren't that extreme more extreme, but who knows, only time will tell...my point was merely that women in veils don't make me feel uncomfortable and that banning them in my view isn't going to change what people are really afraid of, aux contraire so to speak.
If girls, through living in 'the West' acquire a different outlook on life, religion, culture etc, and then decide that hey, you know what, I actually can be a 'good' person without a veil and stop wearing them then great, but forcing them by making it illegal....I don't know, doesn't seem the way to go as far as I am concerned.

Last edited by MataHari; Apr 13th 2011 at 1:15 pm.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 1:20 pm
  #25  
hmmmm...nice
 
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Default Re: Burka Ban

and the whole how would you like when in 50 years time bla bla bla argument is a bit of a non argument as far as I am concerned...society evolves all the time, things don't stay the way they are and at any point in history people would have resisted if they were given a preview of what could happen in 50 years time...but somehow people adapt and they cope and what seemed alien then, becomes the norm...not saying that that is always positive, but that's the way things work...
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 2:04 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by MataHari
and the whole how would you like when in 50 years time bla bla bla argument is a bit of a non argument as far as I am concerned...society evolves all the time, things don't stay the way they are and at any point in history people would have resisted if they were given a preview of what could happen in 50 years time...but somehow people adapt and they cope and what seemed alien then, becomes the norm...not saying that that is always positive, but that's the way things work...
Which is precisely why knowledge of history is a good thing when coupled with taking appropriate action.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 2:09 pm
  #27  
hmmmm...nice
 
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Bahtatboy
Which is precisely why knowledge of history is a good thing when coupled with taking appropriate action.
lol...that will be the day
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 2:47 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by Alexa
I have read a woman was fined today for wearing a face veil in public.
They stone women in some Arab countries for not wearing them, and women visiting from anywhere in the world are expected to conform also. Therefore they when in a European country should conform to our traditions and NOT wear them.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 3:28 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Originally Posted by ldyinlv
They stone women in some Arab countries for not wearing them, and women visiting from anywhere in the world are expected to conform also. Therefore they when in a European country should conform to our traditions and NOT wear them.
where exactly does this happen? Even in Riyadh a lot of foreign women don't cover their hair, never mind their faces.
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Old Apr 13th 2011, 3:51 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: Burka Ban

Is it not the case that France is a democratic country, and they have voted in favour of this law therefore it should stand?

If the vote had said the veils were OK, then that would stand too.

Women in Saudi cover their heads (from all religions) as it is the law there - albeit not democratic as we know it.

In my opinion, if various religions (not just Muslims) want the perks of living in what we see as democratic countries then they should accept the outcome of such cases.
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