dominoman

That's not how I interpreted it. Peter Oborne is as against the EU as he ever was, but is saying that there's a danger now in making a really bad deal because of complete Brexit fatigue. He wants a delay of a year so that May can be gone and we can have a reset of the discussions.

captainflack

Exhibit 'a' above. Why Britain is heading for the EU exit.

The Germans... it's pretty amazing how for a country just a little bigger than our own, and less than 20% of the entire EU population, they've managed to totally take over the EU despite the EU parliament and the 27 other countries all apparently having a say in things. Say what you like about them, but that is spectacular - to secretly subvert the most powerful trading block in the world to their own whims. Meanwhile, the UK has apparently failed to influence any EU members around its alternative axis, and finds itself utterly isolated. And yet the UK is convinced that despite utterly failing to exert our influence over any of our neighbours, we'll manage to do so with the rest of the world. Let's face it, the Germans have won.

Brexitters like to present brexit as a victory, but it isn't. Brexitters believe the Germans have won, they've taken control of Europe, and the UK has lost and is running away in defeat. That's humiliating, surely?

As for the car industry, I bow down to your superior "man in the pub" knowledge. You clearly know more than the boss of JLR, the Japanese, BMW/mini, PSA, the car manufacturers society, the CBI and basically everyone else who's actually involved in car production.

We're all tired of experts. It's time to get some Trump style and celebrate ignorance.

IKnowNothing

When did I mention the car industry?

As usual your logic is more "man in the Islington weirdo artisan coffee shop" rather than the vast majority of the UK outside of London.

Anyway, us mortals can't do a thing about it really, it saddens me that the politicians don't listen to their constituents any more. Hopefully they'll all be voted out (come the revolution LOL).

Millhouse

You never know, IKN might be right or his moniker might also be true.

TGFKASE

captainflack

I do find it interesting how brexit arguments and viewpoints have shifted since the referendum. It has parallels with anti-vaxxers.

During the referendum, no brexitter or anyone representing leave suggested 'no deal' as a realistic possibility, because there was a general consensus that it was economic suicide. And so the argument was that the UK's negotiating position was strong, and that it was scaremongering remain talk to suggest that voting leave meant losing the benefits of the single market. We're only leaving the EU, they said, not the single market. Of course the Germans and the rest of them will have to give us access. And they will. So relax. Business didn't believe this of course, but it's clear many people did.

In a similar way, the anti-vax movement started out as some people nervous about the MMR vaccine, because of Wakefield's paper, which has since of course been retracted and he's been struck off.

You would think that the removal of the main plank of anti-vax evidence would have destroyed the movement. But it didn't

Anti-vaxxers had convinced themselves that the establishment was not to be trusted, and so they simply hardened their position. It wasn't just the MMR vaccine which was bad. All vaccines were bad. They were poisonous, because they contained mercury compounds, caused adverse reactions and so on. The problem was that vaccines also saved millions. So they had to attack that too. And now the anti-vax arguments go that vaccines actually have no effect, and the virtual eradication of polio etc. is not because of the vaccine, but better sanitation and so on. I know an anti-vaxxer, she's into the whole alternative health thing, she does 'human design' readings and so on. And she believes this completely.

I see exactly the same process with brexitters. When the core of their exit strategy, that the UK could preserve the benefits of the single market while not being bound by rules on immigration, was removed and Boris et al finally acknowledged that they could not stay, then brexitters quickly talked themselves round to the idea they'd previously ruled out because they agreed with the consensus that it was economic suicide. Within a few months, 'no deal' had gone from a handful of cranks to mainstream brexitology. Suddenly it was nothing to fear, the single market suddenly wasn't important to the economy at all (Tory right dancing on Thatcher's grave!) and the UK would not just survive on WTO rules, but prosper.

There is a clear parallel in the thought processes and the way both anti-vaxxers and brexitters responded to the central argument being debunked by rebuilding even more extreme views that were even farther removed from reality. And also a deeply held belief that the 'evidence' that undermines their opinions is all part of some large conspiracy by ruling elites, and that all the experts (who generally align themselves on the other side of the debate) are paid shills of big pharma or big business, and are deliberately lying because of some shadowy political agenda.

littlejimmy

See also Flat Earthers. All their arguments are ad-hoc, simplified and just don't hang together as a cogent picture of the world, and their fall-back when their arguments are exposed is that the official position is just a conspiracy.

*goes back to lurking and eating popcorn*

captainflack

The whole "Germans control the EU" take is a case in point.

Germany has a minority fraction of the MEPs and there are 27 other countries in the commission, and vetoes. And yet, somehow, the Germans secretly manage to run the EU as some kind of shadowy dictatorship. It's never really made clear exactly how this is done and no evidence is ever presented to back it up. But people turn up on forums and make this claim, and expect other things they're saying to be taken seriously.

There probably are sensible arguments to be made for brexit (though doubtful the benefits outweigh the costs). But good luck if you can get them out of a brexitter, because you'd need to first get them to stop such nonsense and try to come back to reality for a bit.

Miss Ann Thrope

So according to IKN's reasoning, then the DUP are not representing the democratic wishes of the people of NI that voted to remain.

I mean representative democracy is so old hat when it's so much more fun to shout betrayal and treachery and f**k business, all of which has absolutely no other consequences of course....

Miss Ann Thrope

And the other irony is that the EU had shifted significantly to favour the more liberal Anglo-Saxon capitalism model post Maastricht including English completely replacing French as the lingua franca of the EU. The 1990s Conservative government strongly supported EU expansion to quickly incorporate the central and Eastern countries viewing that that would greatly enhance the UK's influence as the leaders of a much bigger free marketeer voting block versus the Franco-German social market model. This very expansion resulted in the immigration that drove so much of the vote for Brexit. Indeed the UK government is on record as favouring accelerated Turkish accession (while the ineffable weird John Redwood was in the cabinet) against the view of Germany, France and Austria in particular. And see how that was ultimately twisted by the lying, unscrupulous, cheating Leave campaign.

The UK gave up the chance to shape and drive a stronger Europe for the future to become a global laughing stock. Little England will become sadly accurate.

nonthaburi

Breatharians are even better.

IKnowNothing

What May has done to the once Great Britain:-

Johnnyboy11

Post updated.

Edo

She looks even more disgusting in that doggy position.

Thairetired2016

Germany may not be highly represented in nos. The few have a strong voice. Selmayr who is known to be not Brit. friendly, and he is working close to Juncker, MEPs Brok, Weber just to name a few Germans. A few loud outspoken ones can achieve more than a large group (Brits) sitting quietly saying nothing just cry foul.
German influence is waning, Merkel is political history at home. Macron is the guy to watch out for.
Britain now has a chance to vote in the next EU elections. They can choose people who will do more than the present lot does for them e.g. oust the "German dominance".