Johnnyboy11

If we must give up our sovereignty, then why to the European Union and why not to the USA and become the 51st State? Or put our sovereignty out to competitive tender, maybe China will low-ball it...

IKnowNothing

captainflack.

We put the choice to the electorate.

Leave won. Tough shit bonny lad, you really think if the vote was reversed the politicians would still be arguing 3 years later?

The problem was the tories shit themselves and voted a remainer into the top job - then that wet fish chancellor too.

I'm frankly disgusted by the UK parliament - they are meant to do the will of the people - yet 80% of them want remain - even where their constituencies voted leave - so they aren't doing as they were requested too, I think (and hope) there will be a massive sea-change in politics because of this clusterfck.

Jingsamichty

Oh dear.

"Leave won. Tough shit bonny lad, you really think if the vote was reversed the politicians would still be arguing 3 years later?"
Are you for real? You really think that Farage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, the Daily Mail and the Daily Express would have accepted a 52-48 Remain vote and simply gone away? Euroscepticism is a cancer on British politics, especially the Tories - it will never go away. So YES. If the vote was reversed, Leavers WOULD still be banging on about it, and not just for 3 years... it would be forever and a bastard day.

"The problem was the tories shit themselves and voted a remainer into the top job - then that wet fish chancellor too."
At least you're correctly blaming the Tory MPs for this mess. 199 MPs voted for Theresa May, 130 voted against her. For Christ's sake, the 2nd placed candidate was Andrea Leadsome. Yes, that is a truly shocking state of affairs when those are the best 2 proposals you've got for PM. Actually I blame David Cameron for not having the balls to stay on and clear up the mess he single-handedly started. But at least we all agree that it is an out-and-out Conservative-created disaster.

"I'm frankly disgusted by the UK parliament - they are meant to do the will of the people - yet 80% of them want remain - even where their constituencies voted leave - so they aren't doing as they were requested too, I think (and hope) there will be a massive sea-change in politics because of this clusterfck."
You're absolutely wrong - MPs aren't "meant to do the will of the people." They are there to represent the best interests of all of their constituents regardless of how they voted. If an MP comes to believe that his constituents are mistaken, misinformed, no longer think they way they did almost 3 years ago... whatever - they are duty bound to vote in order to protect the best interests of their constituents.

I personally think that the recent displays by MPs is the only glimmer of light in this whole nightmare... THIS is "taking back control". To see MPs defying 3 line whips because they KNOW that what they're being asked to support is idiotic, THAT is democracy in action.

Leavers know that it's idiotic too, they just don't care. That's why they offer nothing - NOTHING - to support their argument that leaving is a good idea beyond "it's what people voted for". People are stupid. Half of the people in the UK are, by definition, below average intelligence. Our representatives ought to be a bit more considered than just parroting the Alf Garnetts amongst their flock.

scot47

Never mind - you will soon have your blue passports back, control over your own affairs and Queen Victoria will be back on the throne.

captainflack

Aside from the Electoral Commission's verdict that the Leave side's overspending and other violations would cause they to nullify the result and re-run it, only they cannot because it was only advisory, the problem is that the leave side cannot decide how to leave.

This is the fundamental problem. They promised everyone their own personal brexit.

But now May insists that remaining in the customs union and single market is inconsistent with the result of the referendum. It is quite evidently not. The question was about leaving the EU. Read it carefully. Even hardcore brexitters like Farage frequently held up Norway and Switzerland as models. As soon as the result is in, they insist that to pursue similar deals to Norway and Switzerland would be violating the result.

This is why brexit is a mess. Because the leave side all want their personal brexit, and they all insist the referendum was a vote for *their* own personal brexit. That brexit which that other guy wants over there? That's a violation. Only my brexit is the one-true brexit.

This is why they cannot leave. Because they cannot agree among themselves what way to leave.

I am sure you also believe your brexit is the one-true brexit. Every brexitter does. But none are willing to compromise.

Regarding if 'remain' had won. Would remainers have insisted that was a mandate to hard remain? Join the Euro, european army, etc.? Because that is essentially what brexitters are doing.

Nobody voted for 'no deal', because brexitters all insisted that the EU would roll over and give the UK everything it wanted.

It is quite clear that throughout this whole process there is one consistent thread. Brexitters overestimate the hand of cards the UK is holding.

If they think that the EU has kicked the sh1t out of the UK during these negotiations, wait until you see what they do after no deal. They're already formulating their demands *to even talk to the UK*, which will include full payment of the 39 billion agreed, and accepting the NI backstop.

Look at the blinder the EU has played all through this. Brexitters believe the UK has been humiliated, but it is nothing of the international humiliation that the UK will face in no deal.

Look at the sh1t show in westminster and tell me you have confidence this bunch of cretins can somehow steer the UK to the sunny brexit uplands?

Brexiteers need a dose of reality, and I suspect they are going to get it, and it is going to hurt very badly.

captainflack

You do know it's the brexit backing ERG and the wingnuts of the DUP who keep voting against Theresa May's deal, not her remain MPs who were the problem?

As I said, the problem is not remainers. The problem is that the brexitters cannot agree how to leave.

Still time for the EU to roll over and grant the UK single market access while letting us keep the pesky foreigners out. Keep the faith, eh?

scrubbedexpat141

Great point this. The EU will come out of the negotiations very well.

I'm amazed more isn't being made of 'Brext Bill' that we'll get left with. £39bn is it? Brexiters must love that....still, with 350m a week saved, it'll be paid off in only 111 weeks.

TGFKASE

I dont believe the issue was the question coz, as you both point out, it was fairly black and white..

The issue is which of the myriad of lies, damn lies and statistics was the kicker for you that we needed to leave..

Was it the NHS Bus lie, was it the immigration lie, was it the 'take control' lie...

Coz now that a lot of the lies have been show to be just that, do those that voted to leave because they honestly thought 350M GBP would suddenly flow to the NHS still think leaving was right, as they finally realise that they were lied to?

Its the Scottish referendum all over again... Scare and bribe, then, once WM has what it wants, dont pay up on the bribe and quietly let the internet prove that the scare tactics were lies...

TheShed

To be very honest, I think that your reply above is extremely condescending to those of us who did vote leave and you are virtually calling us all stupid.

Do you really think we have so little intelligence that we believe the crap spouted by the BBC and Sky News? I certainly did not. I couldn't give a monkeys crap about the borders, the 350m or any of the other headline rubbish; I'm not even against immigration as the UK sorely needs more workers for tax generation. In this regard, I would rather have highly educated and intelligent people from all over the world than the idiotic dumbed down to nothing freaks from Europe who only know how to follow their health and safety rules.

I did my own due diligence in regards to Lisbon 2, the trade flows between UK and EU vs UK and RoW and just how much the EU influences my home country and how ineffective our own parliament has become. I made a decision and expected our ELECTED government to uphold that decision.

I did all of that whilst holding down a highly responsible job running a global business, so please don't assume that all leavers are stupid!! I actually think that if we get to a post-Brexit (highly unlikely to happen now) we should revoke passports from anyone involved in turning over the decision and taking away our democratic system.

Seriously, some people just can't lose can they.

scrubbedexpat141

I don't think you were being called stupid personally and I think the original point stands that a lot of the stuff touted was highly misleading and will have misled some / many / a few voters. Those people may stick to their guns, some would swap now. Some remain voters might now vote leave if asked again. For example, I think I'd stay remain if asked again because I still can't see the positives in my working lifetime of leaving the EU.

Anyway, the bits in red detract from your post, which had some good points. In my opinion.

Annetje

Mr or Mrs Shed
I do hope that you, whilst holding down a highly responsible job running a global businness, realize that even Brits are Europeans and don't like it being called ''Idiotic dumbed down to nothing freaks'' !
And me, as a real European, am very offended with your very rude expression !
Higly unthoughtful language from such a responsible person.

Thairetired2016

..a real European..
What is a real European?
Europe is made up of many sovereign countries.
Ppl are still nationals of individual countries and not nationals of a country called Europe. Hopefully, it will never come to this in my lifetime.

Annetje

As in Asian, African, etc. Sorry I had to explain this.

Thairetired2016

Since you say "real European", what is an unreal European?

Miss Ann Thrope

Clearly you are gifted with extraordinary insight as somebody who has conducted such diligent research and holds such impressive responsibility. So please can you be the first on here, despite repeated requests from me and others, to give JUST ONE plausible specific trade opportunity that will be available to the UK post hard Brexit that even slightly compensates for the inevitable decimation of UK durable goods manufacturing (not just the car industry) as the geographically logical and established UK/EU logistics chains are broken by tariffs and time and capacity-wasting customs checks?

Bearing in mind that somehow other European countries, not just Germany but the likes of Ireland, have managed to massively grow their global exports under the leaden yoke of EU membership (albeit with positive and engaging approach to membership rather than begrudging and supercilious)....
And bearing in mind that NONE of the countries with current trade agreements with the EU have indicated an intention to roll those existing terms over to the UK post-Brexit without seeking additional concessions, so not exactly starting from a strong negotiating position....
And bearing in mind that the US congress will not ratify any trade agreement when the UK is abrogating the Good Friday agreement which requires the indicated consent of a majority north and south of the border to any change in the status of the border (which hard Brexit will inevitably entail)...
And bearing in mind that the UK is currently free as an EU member to pursue unencumbered global trade in services, the strongest part of the UK economy.

Please, just ONE example that can justify your bombastic and implicitly threatening comments about the hapless but mostly good faith efforts of many public representatives to do the right thing for the UK.