DXBtoDOH

As the old saying goes, it ain't over till the fat lady sings. The last year has very much been lurching from one extreme outcome to the other extreme outcome and back and forth and back and forth. One practically gets sea-sickness from trying to follow Parliament.

As for Bercow and his bugger Brexit stickers on his, ahem, his wife's car, I'd have more respect for his decision if he hadn't ignored Parliamentary convention and precedence, against the full advice of his advisers, last year.

Millhouse

You're holding a grudge from a year ago?

Anyway - as he said at the time - someone has to set a new precedent or nothing will ever change.

BritInParis

Sadly not. A simple statutory instrument is all that is required after Brussels gives the nod. It can be done in an afternoon. After driving a horse and cart through the constitution when it suits him, Bercow has now decided to announce, before the government has even brought forward the meaningful vote, that he won’t allow it to proceed due to his newly discovered respect for precedent. His naked political agenda is just that.

DXBtoDOH

It was November/December, I believe. Something to do with declaring the government in contempt despite the government following the same precedent as previous governments. Something like that.

It is quite hard to take this little man seriously. He's no Betty Boothroyd for sure.

Edo

Well this little man is being taken quite seriously by the markets right now as well as the international media since yesterday.

Millhouse

I hope the EU doesn't grant an extension. There is no point. There was never a point in even trying to negotiate in the first place so more time isn't going to be used to obtain anything meaningful.

captainflack

The referendum question was very clear.

It was simply a vote to leave the EU, nothing more. It said nothing about (a) why people might want to leave (b) what the new relationship should be.

It's brexitters who have filled in the blanks and insist on *their own personal brexit*, and then insist that anything else is a betrayal of what the brexit vote really meant, rather than what it actually said.

If brexit never happens, it's the fault of brexitters. If they'd come up with a decent plan and spent some of the last 40 years actually thinking about the northern ireland border problem, and perhaps putting some of their hedge fund billions into developing the magic technology required to have chlorine washed chicken and sh1t standards on one side, and high quality standards on the other, while ensuring no smuggling, then their hard brexit might have stuck. Failing that, even accepting that remaining in the single market and customs union, but leaving the EU, does fulfill the referendum result, would have maybe got widespread support in parliament and the country as being a reasonable compromise.

Instead they tried to use a narrow 52/48 margin in a vote that was purely about leaving the EU to drive through a right-wing coup, the end game of which is basically to rip up the progressive European economic structure of postwar Britain, and instead subscribe totally to the US model. It's no accident that Farage, Fox and other brexitters have been championing abolishing the NHS at the political fringes for as long as they've been banging on about leaving the EU.

No deal will simply never stick. The UK is part of Europe, and industry, farming and commerce all require a close relationship with frictionless trade. If the UK left with no deal, the new government that will inevitably follow an economic collapse would quickly do whatever the EU wanted to get a single market and customs union deal.

Millhouse

You know that almost everywhere in the world chlorine washes chicken, right? All that cheap chicken from Thailand or Brazil that ends up in ready meals is most likely chlorine washed. Even the EU chlorine washes chicken for export.

The ban on US imported chicken is more likely less about animal welfare or hygiene than it is about protectionist policies for local producers. Chicken is one of the most highly protected industries globally - almost all countries have some form of trade rules to protect local protection.

weasel decentral

Out of all that, chicken washing was the most important point ?

weasel decentral

Correct. Though if I was in the EU's shoes I would push for an extension, as they will definitely get more out of it watching May et al tie themselves in further knots. A no deal Brexit is akin to a mercy shooting.
If this was a boxing match, the canvas would be covered in thrown towels by now

Millhouse

A subject close to my heart ... I'm currently writing an investment paper for a chicken business. I asked management about chlorine washing and he didn't know how you make chicken without it. He was shocked when I told him about the EU. You wash your salad in chlorine, but not the chicken - you cook the chicken, not the salad.

Millhouse

The French may just fire that gun. Who would have thought our most hated country in Europe may actually deliver the mercy shooting in an act of sympathy. It will be hard for them too - like killing your favourite villain.

captainflack

Undoubtedly there is a high degree of protectionism in European farming. It's not just for economic reasons. There is a perception that small scale farming is more sustainable than huge mega farms from an environmental point of view, as well as in maintaining the social role of farming in rural societies. It's fairly clear that if the UK embarks on the US trade deal that Fox et al want, then the UK countryside will change dramatically. Farming will either need to be massively restructured and the relatively small fields turned into the kind of mega fields you have in the grain belt, or farming will largely stop, save a few niche high value products.

The problem with chicken isn't so much chlorine washing itself, but the fact that it is often used to cover up problems in the production process. Europe tends to take a much stronger regulatory role about processes, as well as just simply testing the end product, not just in food production. There is a general principle that safety is a process rather than a simple pass/fail test applied to an end product.

Does it make a difference?

The US rate of salmonella infection is around 10 times that of the EU. The UK didn't record any deaths from salmonella from 2006 to 2015, while the CDC reported about 380 deaths per year during the same period. British eggs are considered safe to soft boil now, while the US still recommends hard boiling and salmonella in eggs is still a widespread cause of salmonellosis in the US.

There are economic arguments to be had about whether the number of deaths versus the reduction in costs justify the European approach. But it seems impossible to ignore the fact that food safety in the UK and Europe in general is much higher than in the US by a considerable margin, and that this would surely change with a US trade deal.

My brother lives in North Carolina, which is a huge hog farming centre. Thankfully, he's near the coast, away from the industry (it's a huge state), but the factory farming methods there are quite literally eye watering:

https://www.ehn.org/hurricane-floren...2#rebelltitem2

If you look into pig farming standards in Europe versus the US, it's clear that there is a huge difference both in the animal welfare standards, and the environmental standards. I am sure that the chicken industry is no different.

DXBtoDOH

I always thought chlorinated chicken was a red herring, a symbolism more than anything genuine. Most countries seem to chlorinate their chickens. Canada does and a cursory glance at google indicates they have a far smaller salmonella issue than the US. Ditto for Australia. And I think Japan does too and the Japanese are probably the most hygienic and food fussy people on the planet. It reminds me of the furore over GMOs, especially as humans have been modifying seeds and plants for millenniums now.

I remember when the chlorinated chicken furore first broke out. It initially appalled me and I was thinking about it while swimming.... then it hit me that I was swimming in chlorinated water, as I do every morning.... in fact I can faintly smell it as I type this message

I'm sure there's legit concerns about opening up to the US food market but it's more sensible to take careful review of all their practices and compare it to the national contexts that may or may not explain any discrepancies and so forth rather than blindly hanging on to chlorinated chicken as an issue. After all, the UK is the country that had Foot and Mouth. The US did not.....

DXBtoDOH

Any revised verdicts on deal/no deal/extension/revocation based on the past few days?