Brexit outcome
Aug 14th 2018, 10:14 pm
#136
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,460
Re: Brexit outcome
It's interesting to see the recent polling suggesting a significant shift, especially in labour constituencies, against brexit. So that there is now a significant majority of constituencies with majorities against brexit.
Obviously this is polling, but it's fairly good polling based on data that proved very accurate at the last election. And considering many people voting leave were assured that losing access to the single market was a preposterous remain scaremongering, it's perhaps not surprising.
The suggestion is that people are starting to realize that many of the promises made about leaving were false. But I think the biggest reason is simply that brexit at the time of the vote was seen as a vote against *both* parties and the political establishment. Whereas now, brexit is seen very much as a Tory policy, so labour leaning voters find it harder to support going over the top with the likes of Rees Mogg and Johnson.
There is a certain irony in that the right of the Tory party who claim to be carrying the torch for Thatcher are essentially dancing on her grave by taking the UK out of the single market. Thatcher pushed hard for it, was instrumental in ensuring it was robust with full acceptance of the four freedoms, largely because she feared otherwise the French would just use any loopholes to block car or agricultural imports (and they probably would). Thatcher sold the japanese the concept to get them to invest and save the UK car industry, and deregulated the city to encourage banks to come to London as a pan-European base. The Eurosceptic wing holds up her Bruges speech, but it was clear from that what Thatcher opposed was the cultural and political unification of Europe, and that the single market was essentially what she thought was the best bit and really the only bit she wanted. You have the feeling these zealots probably would have got nowhere when Thatcher was alive, because she'd have been pro single market and customs union. But once jesus is dead, all manner of chancers can go round saying they talk for him, and the gullible believe it.
It will be very interesting to see what happens. I think most of the people saying 'don't worry' don't seem to be actively involved in the kinds of things that will be heavily affected, such as customs, airlines, manufacturing, farming and so on. And almost all of those who are, seem to be getting more and more desperate.
On the plus side, now brexit is largely seen as a Tory thing, this will undoubtedly destroy the Tory party, and see them out of office for a generation, or possibly, forever. Which might be a very good thing, if it wasn't for the fact that Labour look like a sh1t show too.
Obviously this is polling, but it's fairly good polling based on data that proved very accurate at the last election. And considering many people voting leave were assured that losing access to the single market was a preposterous remain scaremongering, it's perhaps not surprising.
The suggestion is that people are starting to realize that many of the promises made about leaving were false. But I think the biggest reason is simply that brexit at the time of the vote was seen as a vote against *both* parties and the political establishment. Whereas now, brexit is seen very much as a Tory policy, so labour leaning voters find it harder to support going over the top with the likes of Rees Mogg and Johnson.
There is a certain irony in that the right of the Tory party who claim to be carrying the torch for Thatcher are essentially dancing on her grave by taking the UK out of the single market. Thatcher pushed hard for it, was instrumental in ensuring it was robust with full acceptance of the four freedoms, largely because she feared otherwise the French would just use any loopholes to block car or agricultural imports (and they probably would). Thatcher sold the japanese the concept to get them to invest and save the UK car industry, and deregulated the city to encourage banks to come to London as a pan-European base. The Eurosceptic wing holds up her Bruges speech, but it was clear from that what Thatcher opposed was the cultural and political unification of Europe, and that the single market was essentially what she thought was the best bit and really the only bit she wanted. You have the feeling these zealots probably would have got nowhere when Thatcher was alive, because she'd have been pro single market and customs union. But once jesus is dead, all manner of chancers can go round saying they talk for him, and the gullible believe it.
It will be very interesting to see what happens. I think most of the people saying 'don't worry' don't seem to be actively involved in the kinds of things that will be heavily affected, such as customs, airlines, manufacturing, farming and so on. And almost all of those who are, seem to be getting more and more desperate.
On the plus side, now brexit is largely seen as a Tory thing, this will undoubtedly destroy the Tory party, and see them out of office for a generation, or possibly, forever. Which might be a very good thing, if it wasn't for the fact that Labour look like a sh1t show too.
Aug 15th 2018, 1:33 am
#137
Wannabe Cycling God
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: West Kensington, Dubai
Posts: 1,157
Re: Brexit outcome
If if this was still the EEC and not the EU I would have voted remain. The biggest exemaple of why the EU can never truly work across a pan-European state is the Euro itself. It has showered riches on the wealthiest nations and financially destroyed its poorer members.
Aug 15th 2018, 6:16 am
#138
BE Forum Addict
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,520
Re: Brexit outcome
once again we are seeing polls used as marketing tools for the remoaners. However, in Cpt Flacks original analysis he does make the point of senior brexiteers like me that I fully support the single market but am vehemently against all of the EU single state ideas. This is not anti-immigration, I just want our people to set the laws in our country rather than adopt the lowest common denominator that is agreeable to all and which helps no one.
If if this was still the EEC and not the EU I would have voted remain. The biggest exemaple of why the EU can never truly work across a pan-European state is the Euro itself. It has showered riches on the wealthiest nations and financially destroyed its poorer members.
The EU should have just stayed a single market with none of this faffing around unification and ideologies and the so called four freedoms. When ideology was introduced into a sensible economic concept, that's when things started getting messy. I love it when EU loyalists talk about some fictional European identity and European values (oh, you mean those values that plunged the continent into massive wars and genocides?) but no one can clearly explain what this really means, especially when it's clear that to the Eastern Europeans "EU values" means a white, Christian Europe, no Muslims allowed, thank you, and to the western European (or their leadership, at least) it means something else quite different, not so much European but "liberal" at the cost of cultural and community solidarity. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.
Aug 15th 2018, 8:35 am
#139
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2010
Location: Abu Dhabi
Posts: 1,172
Re: Brexit outcome
Valid observation and one that many ideological remainers ignore. Membership in the Euro was devastating for Greece in more ways than one, it flooded that country with a high value currency based on the German economy and with the low interest rates to match, allowing them to borrow huge sums (from German banks, natch) and completely distorted the realities of the Greek economic situation, and when it finally caught up the Greeks weren't allowed to default and get on with life (just like what Argentina and Mexico did, to use recent examples, default, get on and people forget and economy quickly rebuilds). And it's not just Greece, the Italian economy has suffered from Euro membership, a currency that is too valuable for Italy and makes it difficult for the Italians to compete with the northern countries. Italy is technically poorer off now than it was before it joined the Euro, adjusting for inflation.
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Aug 15th 2018, 11:31 am
#141
Wannabe Cycling God
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: West Kensington, Dubai
Posts: 1,157
Aug 15th 2018, 2:08 pm
#142
Excess Baggage
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
Re: Brexit outcome
The UK isn't in the Euro. It was also not in Schengen and had a veto and a rebate and other things. In my opinion we had a pretty good deal for access into the SM/CU. Now we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater and if we ever want to rejoin (which isn't beyond the realms of possibility) we will not get such a good deal again. Just my opinion, of course.
Aug 15th 2018, 2:48 pm
#143
Wannabe Cycling God
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: West Kensington, Dubai
Posts: 1,157
Re: Brexit outcome
The UK isn't in the Euro. It was also not in Schengen and had a veto and a rebate and other things. In my opinion we had a pretty good deal for access into the SM/CU. Now we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater and if we ever want to rejoin (which isn't beyond the realms of possibility) we will not get such a good deal again. Just my opinion, of course.
Correct, we never signed up for Shengenbor the Euro so why did we have to sign for all of the other crap when we had the best bit at the start? I strongly suspect that every breixteer around my age will have exactly the same thoughts as me.
Aug 15th 2018, 3:19 pm
#144
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: bute
Posts: 9,740
Re: Brexit outcome
"The Failing Euro Currency" Have you had a look at sterling ! And the rates for sterling in other currencies.
Aug 15th 2018, 6:40 pm
#145
Excess Baggage
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 5,479
Re: Brexit outcome
i think you’ll find the first thing we ever did was join EEC in 72 ( which was the open market in all but name).
Correct, we never signed up for Shengenbor the Euro so why did we have to sign for all of the other crap when we had the best bit at the start? I strongly suspect that every breixteer around my age will have exactly the same thoughts as me.
Aug 15th 2018, 7:10 pm
#146
Gloves off
Joined: May 2016
Location: Antwerpen/Anvers
Posts: 7,269
Re: Brexit outcome
That's fair enough, but we are now looking at having no membership of anything at all and entering god-knows-what with WTO rules. A Norway or Switzerland EFTA style deal would make more sense, surely? That was what a lot of Brexiteers were arguing for during the referendum campaign.
Aug 16th 2018, 3:30 am
#147
Wannabe Cycling God
Joined: Jul 2009
Location: West Kensington, Dubai
Posts: 1,157
Re: Brexit outcome
The Euro is indeed dropping, admittedly I'm only watching it in relation to the Swiss Franc but it allows me to move quite nicely when it suits.
It would and indeed does make sense, but everyone seems to have discounted this. It continues to escape me as to why? Honestly, can't fathom that one.
It would and indeed does make sense, but everyone seems to have discounted this. It continues to escape me as to why? Honestly, can't fathom that one.
I do do agree that the availability of really honest and Independant information is difficult to find but I’d love to see true research for somewhere showing whether EC membership is actually advantageous or not.
I think most remainers value the single single state fat kore than I do. I sincerely believe that with the advent of eCommerce, shrinking global travel times and the general globalization trade blocks are becoming less important.
Aug 16th 2018, 8:24 am
#148
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,520
Re: Brexit outcome
Can we change topics slightly and talk about Jeremy Corbyn?
What a f****** antisemitic terrorist sympathiser.
To quote a former Labour supporting mate, I'm more mortified that Corbyn is leader of Labour and a prospective future PM than the embarrassingly incompetent May government.
Corbyn once said that if you don't criticise or fight injustice you are condoning the same injustice. But I guess Jews aren't included in that sentiment.
What a f****** antisemitic terrorist sympathiser.
To quote a former Labour supporting mate, I'm more mortified that Corbyn is leader of Labour and a prospective future PM than the embarrassingly incompetent May government.
Corbyn once said that if you don't criticise or fight injustice you are condoning the same injustice. But I guess Jews aren't included in that sentiment.
Aug 18th 2018, 10:44 am
#149
Forum Regular
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 198
Aug 19th 2018, 5:07 am
#150
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: Brexit outcome
Can we change topics slightly and talk about Jeremy Corbyn?
What a f****** antisemitic terrorist sympathiser.
To quote a former Labour supporting mate, I'm more mortified that Corbyn is leader of Labour and a prospective future PM than the embarrassingly incompetent May government.
Corbyn once said that if you don't criticise or fight injustice you are condoning the same injustice. But I guess Jews aren't included in that sentiment.
What a f****** antisemitic terrorist sympathiser.
To quote a former Labour supporting mate, I'm more mortified that Corbyn is leader of Labour and a prospective future PM than the embarrassingly incompetent May government.
Corbyn once said that if you don't criticise or fight injustice you are condoning the same injustice. But I guess Jews aren't included in that sentiment.
Blows my mind that this guy is in the position he is.