Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

An UK immigration related article from BBC News website -

Woman faces deportation after 27 years - BBC News

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

"These kind of bureaucratic decisions are a direct result of .... "

.... people not following the rules and completing the right paperwork. The results seem harsh, but if everyone flouted the rules there'd be complete chaos. There seems little doubt that there are several routes the woman could have taken that would mean she was legally living in the UK, not least she could have obtained British citizenship, likely more than 20 years ago, but she "did her own thing" and is now in a bit of a pickle. :rolleyes:

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

I think the main reason why Mrs Clennel did not take up British Citizenship is that Singapore does not allow dual nationality for its citizens. This means that she cannot become a British Citizen without losing her own Singaporean citizenship.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Right, I know, but she has had 27 years to decide where the main centre of her life is, and she hasn't completed the right paperwork. ..... And there are alternatives to taking British citizenship, not least, in her position, to start over and apply for a visa, as it appears she was admitted as a visitor, and then did nothing! She has no one to blame but herself!

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Reading this story on a few newspapers, it seems she lost her ILR having been out of the country for more than two years, but was given leave to remain again in 2008 (according to the Mirror) not sure how she lost that again! It does seem tough but many of us have been there! My husband lost his ILR for the same reason and we had to go through the whole process again, this time being much more difficult with the new rules. But it is as it is. We make our decisions and have to take the consequences.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

She wanted the best of both worlds. Otherwise she would have applied for citizenship long ago. Many Singaporeans regret at one point or another that they gave up citizenship. It is very difficult to get it back. Singapore evaluates every case on its merit just like U.K. does now with Ms Clennell.
I have a friend who has been living in Germany for 30 years. He is still Singaporean just like his daughter who was born in Germany. They know why they will not give up being Singaporean.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

She didn't HAVE to take UK citizenship though. If she wanted to stay Singaporean she could still have lived in the UK quite legally and could have carried on living there.

She just needed to read the visa rues that applied to her, and abide by them. Its not difficult, any of us who decide to live abroad are responsible for sticking to the relevant rules, and although there are some cases where the rules change and people get caught out unwittingly, in this case the rules were quite clear, she spent too long outside of the country and when she came back she didn't bother to rectify the situation.
She had the choice, and she choose to break the rules, so I really have no sympathy for her now. Go back to Singapore and apply to come back the correct way, like everyone else has to.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Disappointing to see the BBC lead with such a misleading headline - she hasn't spent the last 27 years in the UK, rather she has been married to a British man since 1990, which is meaningless in immigration terms. Even the Daily Mail got their headline correct. The article also fails to mention she spent several extended periods in Singapore during this time, including a five year period, abandoning her ILR status. A quote from the Daily Mail article is telling: 'I understand not everyone can come into the UK and stay, but surely I should be treated differently.'

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

And what makes her so special I wonder.....:rolleyes:

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

She's the only Singaporean in the Village. :nod:

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

:lol::lol::sneaky:

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

As a Singaporean she should be used to obey the law. What makes her think in other countries the rule of law doesn't apply to her?

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

She's in immigration detention awaiting deportation, so I think she gets it now.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Same principle elsewhere.
My Indonesian wife gave up her RI citizenship to become Canadian as we lived there for over 20 years.
We have now returned to live in Bali and she has to get a visa just like I do. She is seen as a foreigner in her own country and, if she didn't comply with visa rules, like taking up employment or letting her visa expire, she would also be detained and deported.
We are careful to comply with all rules...same as this lady should have done.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

I don't think it is that hard to resume British Citizenship. Many people asked about getting their British Citizenship back in this forum and no one return to the forum (recently) with a refusal from the Home Office.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

It's easy to make comment when you have the option of dual nationality. My friends mom has been living in the US 40 years and still refuses to give up her German citizenship. Some people just have an attachment to their heritage or want an option if things get bad.

I guess I have given up a few things just being away from the UK, but I was never asked to give up citizenship. Also if you give up citizenship, does that mean your kids don't get dual nationality?

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

But the point is that she did not have to give up her citizenship, all she had to do was get the correct visa, like thousands of others have had to. No-one said she had to become a citizen, she could have lived in the UK on a visa. But she chose to spend too long out of the country, so her visa expired and she just never bothered to get another one. Now she wants to be a special case just cos she couldn't be bothered to abide by the rues that everyone else has to stick to.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

:goodpost: That is it in a nutshell!

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

But some people are not smart enough to know the consequences. I agree 100% with your comment.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Germany does offer dual-nationality in certain cases...it is called "Beibehaltungsgenehmigung".

If you can pronounce and spell it.... dual-nationality is automatic. :thumbsup:
If failed....it's denied...:thumbdown:

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

My friends gave up German citizenship, never managed to get it back when they were old. It is not as easy as in the UK.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

I notice the comments on the Mail report are quite supportive - albeit in a "I'd rather have this woman than refugees and scroungers" sort of way.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

:thumbup:

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Your friend's mother can apply for permission to retain her German citizenship before she naturalises as a US citizen ('Beibehaltungsgenehmigung') This has been available for a number of years now.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

In the 1960s one US company gave non-American (yet resident) employees the "choice" of either becoming US citizens or unemployment. (No equal rights back then)
From a Canadian perspective this meant losing automatically your Canadian citizenship (and British subject status) from birth, including that of your children aged under 18. Not many people knew this as they thought incorrectly that they did not renounce Canadian citizenship.

ILR used to be stamped in your foreign passport, and after expiry of same passport a new ILR (at no cost) could be stamped in the new passport at the discretion of the then Immigration Officer upon entry to the UK (with proof of old passport).
After a good many years it was decided that ILR would not be stamped in passports at UK Immigration ports of entry; however, holders of ILR could still enter the UK carrying two passports (one expired with ILR plus the new one).
Recently ILR has to be applied for, and at cost in each new passport.
Do you follow? This is easily 35 years of following the rules.

There were "consequences" for many "Lost Canadians" pre 1977 which were partially resolved more than a generation later in 2009. Many government officials never understood the consequences.

Lastly, with dual (or multiple) nationality comes the understanding that you abide by the laws of the country in which you are a citizen/resident. As an example, in 2006 the Canadian /Lebanese dual nationals who insisted Canada had the moral obligation to airlift them out of Beirut. Erm, nope! Yet Canada did.

Thanks for reading.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

No I don't follow the logic that she should be exempt from the visa rules because of anything you wrote above. She spent too long outside of the UK and did not sort out the correct visa when she last returned.
What justification is there for her not having to meet the same rules as everyone else?

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Did I say she should be exempt from the rules?
I gave an example of living in the UK on an ILR visa for many years.
Visa holders need to understand the terms and conditions.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

This was true prior to 15 February 1977 but most of those who did lose their Canadian citizenship had it restored automatically on 17 April 2009 when Bill C-37 came into force as you mentioned.

ILR has always expired after two years of absence from the UK so that hasn't changed. There is a requirement to obtain a BRP if you need to prove your right to work in the UK but you can still enter the UK with an old ILR stamp/vignette in a previous passport providing your status is valid.

I would agree that the Canadian government was foolish to do so but it was evidently done for political expedience rather than legal necessity.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

According to today's i newspaper she was deported yesterday, 27 February, with just £12.00 in her pocket.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Please explain. In what sense were the Canadian/Lebanese dual nationals not abiding by Canadian or Lebanese law?

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

I think the point is that dual Canadian and Lebanese citizens should not have been offer consular assistance by the Canadian government in Lebanon. The British government offers the follow advice to dual nationals -


https://www.gov.uk/dual-citizenship

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

That wasn't what Carol&John wrote. They said they were not abiding by the law. And I think they should explain what they mean.

In what sense should the Canadian/Lebanese citizen not have been given help? Why not?

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Please read what other people wrote before coming up with criticisms.

I am not saying Canadian / Lebanese dual nationals should not be be given help. What I am saying is that dual Canadian / Lebanese citizens are not entitle to the protection of the Canadian government in Lebanon.

I think what Carol&John meant was that dual nationals should respect the laws of the country in which you are a citizen while you are in that country. Thus, a dual Canadian / Lebanese citizen should abide by Lebanese law while in Lebanon as the Canadian government cannot offer any consular assistant to those dual Canadian / Lebanese citizens in Lebanon.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

I think you and Editha are talking at cross purposes - the evacuation was a humanitarian issue, not a "respect of laws" issue.

It's a fair question, whether one country should be evacuating dual nationals from the other country of which the evacuees hold nationality? I am inclined to think that Canada made a mistake, as while they are, in this case, evacuees from the respect of Canada, they are also refugees fleeing one of their, supposedly, home countries.

As such this sets a potentially awkward precedent - what happens if there is a break down in law and order, in say, Pakistan, or Nigeria? Is Canada going to evacuate all the dual nationals from there too? :unsure:

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Which point is completely irrelevant to the situation in 2006 when Canadian citizens in Lebanon were evacuated, not because they had broken the laws of Lebanon, but because the country had been invaded.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

The USA, Australia, the UK and Sweden also evacuated their nationals (dual or not) from the Lebanon in 2006.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

Firstly, I apologise for my comment having taken this thread off topic.

Secondly, (and finally as it is off topic to this thread) Editha your following comments ring true, and I mistakenly had referred to Canadian citizenship law which did not exist at the time of the 2006 invasion.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

There are a lot of holes in Irene Clemmell's version(s) of her situation. I reckon she wanted to have her cake and eat it. It seems to me that she wanted to keep her government subsidized Singapore HDB (Housing Development Board) flat which are allocated to Singaporeans and Permanent Residents only....to then cash in for a big profit a few years later, even if it meant being seperated from her spouse and two (at the time) very young sons.

My guess is that her spouse didn't become a PR in Singapore and took their sons back to the UK to avoid being conscripted for National Service. Sons of Singaporeans and sons of Permanent Residents *must* register for National Service. They're conscripted at the age of 16 unless they apply for a deferment whilst continuing in full time education. Basically unless the male children leave Singapore by the time they are approx 11 or 12 years old, the parents have to place a huge bond with the govt. which is forfeited if the son doesn't return to Singapore for his NS. Btw. National Service is for 2 years and afterwards can be called up at any time until the age of 40 for NS duties; my dentist wasn't available once when I tried to make an appointment.....he was called up for a fortnight of NS and he was in his late thirties!

I do find it rather odd that Irene Clennell was quite happy to leave her spouse to basically raise their sons on his own when they were very young; they are now in their mid-20s and she has a grandchild, but now wants to be a loving mother...?

LIFT: Limpeh Is Foreign Talent

- interesting perspective from a Singaporean in the UK (Feb 27th Q&A 'The Irene Clennell deportation case'

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

The BBC article has an enlightening timeline.

Woman sent back to Singapore despite 27-year marriage - BBC News

In short she was legally resident in the UK for a maximum of four years, achieved ILR before immediately returning to Singapore for 11 years.

The six odd years spent in the UK subsequently were achieved by overstaying her Leave to Enter as a visitor.

Having been turned back from the UK in 2007 she waited another five years before lodging an application from Singapore. Why wait so long? Were she and her husband estranged during this period (or even earlier when her husband and children returned to the UK alone)? The rejection in 2012 "on the basis that Mrs Clennell did not provide proof of contact with her family" would suggest so.

Since you can't switch from being a visitor to LTR unless seeking asylum so any applications she made whilst in the UK were never going to succeed.

Mrs Clennell has had 23 years to put her situation right and chose not to.

Re: Woman faces deportation after 27 years
 

VERY interesting! And yet, because of the dramatic media coverage, there is now £52,000 in her gofundme account!