RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Old Dec 6th 2010, 2:55 pm
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by HumphreyC
Ok; how did this discussion get from tipping to Social Darwinism ?
That's BE for you. One is lucky to keep a thread on topic by the second page
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 12:54 am
  #257  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Norri
Nowhere looks good from the train, all you ever see is derelict factories and depressing houses.
Can be depressing, but also very interesting; in urban areas you get to see the backs of terraced houses, much more interesting than the fronts.
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 7:50 am
  #258  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Volt61
Well I did say "is like", but perhaps you don't want to read what doesn't suit you?
I am aware that the film is fiction, but thanks for the heads up.



You're so offended so easily, but you're doing this to yourself.

Health insurance covers the same things as in the UK because the people in the USA have the same problems as those in the UK so the USA have factored in the same treatments to be made available as humans elsewhere.

The only difference is who pays and does it work?
Well, we all pay (and we will have to keep paying) and no, it doesn't always work and I could quote horror stories of shambolic doctors and other staff who's decisions costs people their health and their lives, among a list of shortcomings and poor service.

You're wishing to ignore the key points of my posts, because you don't like or agree with them. That's fine but then don't pretend your view is the only true one or that its better, etc.
Careful Volt61,
Several of the forum posters in this thread are apt to fall off their perches if you do not claim that the NHS is a true Godsend for one and all, these same posters will find it impossible to believe that one can have World class health coverage in the USA, they will post charts, graphs, and lame statistics to try to prove their point. I think the fact that various heads of State and the wealthy Worldwide come to the USA for medical treatment speaks volumes in itself. ( Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams= Canadian, Saudi Arabian King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz ,Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, Just to name a few, I do not have the time to name them all, but if you use google you will find over 35 various heads of various States/kingdoms/crapdoms/whatever.

But it would not be BE unless one provided a link or some other thing to back themselves up...So here ya go. I have lot's of other stuff, but I will let ya chew on this for a bit.... Happy munching, OoO Time to get back to work.

The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world's best known, oldest, and most respected general medical journals

According to the survey of cancer survival rates in Europe and the United States, published recently in Lancet Oncology.

American women have a 63 percent chance of living at least five years after a cancer diagnosis, compared to 56 percent for European women.
American men have a five-year survival rate of 66 percent — compared to only 47 percent for European men.
Among European countries, only Sweden has an overall survival rate for men of more than 60 percent.
For women, only three European countries (Sweden, Belgium and Switzerland) have an overall survival rate of more than 60 percent.
These figures reflect the care available to all Americans, not just those with private health coverage. Great Britain, known for its 50-year-old government-run, universal health care system, fares worse than the European average: British men have a five-year survival rate of only 45 percent; women, only 53 percent.... Go on dispute away, call names, post graphs, do whatever it is you do to show your contempt... Enjoy your day
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 8:22 am
  #259  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Oregon4now
Careful Volt61,
Several of the forum posters in this thread are apt to fall off their perches if you do not claim that the NHS is a true Godsend for one and all, these same posters will find it impossible to believe that one can have World class health coverage in the USA, they will post charts, graphs, and lame statistics to try to prove their point. I think the fact that various heads of State and the wealthy Worldwide come to the USA for medical treatment speaks volumes in itself. ( Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams= Canadian, Saudi Arabian King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz ,Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, Just to name a few, I do not have the time to name them all, but if you use google you will find over 35 various heads of various States/kingdoms/crapdoms/whatever.

But it would not be BE unless one provided a link or some other thing to back themselves up...So here ya go. I have lot's of other stuff, but I will let ya chew on this for a bit.... Happy munching, OoO Time to get back to work.

The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world's best known, oldest, and most respected general medical journals

According to the survey of cancer survival rates in Europe and the United States, published recently in Lancet Oncology.

American women have a 63 percent chance of living at least five years after a cancer diagnosis, compared to 56 percent for European women.
American men have a five-year survival rate of 66 percent — compared to only 47 percent for European men.
Among European countries, only Sweden has an overall survival rate for men of more than 60 percent.
For women, only three European countries (Sweden, Belgium and Switzerland) have an overall survival rate of more than 60 percent.
These figures reflect the care available to all Americans, not just those with private health coverage. Great Britain, known for its 50-year-old government-run, universal health care system, fares worse than the European average: British men have a five-year survival rate of only 45 percent; women, only 53 percent.... Go on dispute away, call names, post graphs, do whatever it is you do to show your contempt... Enjoy your day
I think you are mixing up the quality of the treatment with the quality of the (insurance) system.

I have received good treatment in both countries under both systems, but I have the luxury of a good insurance policy in the US via a company-wide coverage.

This does not mean that I can't see the circa 40M people who do not have coverage, nor see those that do and get bumped by their insurance provider (frequently people with individual coverage). Nor does it mean I don't recognize that the UK spends around 9% GDP on health and the US over 16% GDP.

The US frequently has excellent healthcare treatment, for those who can afford it and do not get bumped by their insurance.

Last edited by Cape Blue; Dec 7th 2010 at 9:30 am. Reason: spell checker gone pete tong
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 8:55 am
  #260  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Oregon4now
Careful Volt61,
Several of the forum posters in this thread are apt to fall off their perches if you do not claim that the NHS is a true Godsend for one and all, these same posters will find it impossible to believe that one can have World class health coverage in the USA, they will post charts, graphs, and lame statistics to try to prove their point.
That's not at all what people are saying. It's the sheer cost involved and how diverse the level and quality of care is depending on how good your job is...opinions tend to change once you lose a job, have pre-existing and have something horrid to contemplate.

You can get great care here, you can get shit care here, but you do pay double what you pay in the UK and you still might get no care here. The UK, cost of BUPA is peanuts but you don't have that option here, that's the big difference.
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 8:58 am
  #261  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Cape Blue
This does not mean that I can't see the circa 40M people who do not have coverage
Hit 60M ages ago...but the real problem, apart from that number, is the number of under-insured people. Not much use for the average person if the cover will protect them from getting hit by a bus if they can't afford the co-pay/deductibles to fix a broken arm.
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 9:28 am
  #262  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Bob
Hit 60M ages ago...but the real problem, apart from that number, is the number of under-insured people. Not much use for the average person if the cover will protect them from getting hit by a bus if they can't afford the co-pay/deductibles to fix a broken arm.
Thats why WE have County hospitals available for those who are UNABLE to afford their Medical cost. Most people though do not resource the Programs available in their community for the un-insured/under-insured, it is much easier and convenient for the HAVE NOT'S to use local emergency rooms as their primary care provider because they cannot refuse you treatment, even if for the common cold. I see the system abused quite a bit, and it is because of these irresponsible people as well as the hoards of undocumented peoples that Hospital and insurance cost are out of this world ( FACT ).
Illegal immigrants and their children, many of whom were born in the U.S. and are citizens, make up a sizeable chunk of the often-cited 46+ million people without health insurance in the U.S.
The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that as many as 15 million of the uninsured in the U.S. are undocumented immigrants and their children.
Just saying ...
This does not include those who receive Medi-Cal / Medi- care for their Children which is Medical Insurance BTW.

Last edited by Oregon4now; Dec 7th 2010 at 9:31 am. Reason: typo
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 9:38 am
  #263  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

And do remember that many can't afford to get the diagnosis in the first place.
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 10:04 am
  #264  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by AdobePinon
And do remember that many can't afford to get the diagnosis in the first place.
As I stated several post above.. MANY do not use the PUBLIC resources available to them at no Co$t, not one red cent.

The American Heart, Diabetes, Lung, Vision, Kidney, Hearing, Blood pressure,
Blood test, Cancer screening, list goes on } Associations, ALL offer, some several times a year Free screenings & Testing in almost every American city.
Most major cities have Health Fairs every year, check out your local listings people, There is so much out there in Govt $$$$$ to fund these programs which are not being used and resourced by those who claim to need it so much..
But what do I know, right ?
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 10:08 am
  #265  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Oregon4now
Thats why WE have County hospitals available for those who are UNABLE to afford their Medical cost. Most people though do not resource the Programs available in their community for the un-insured/under-insured, it is much easier and convenient for the HAVE NOT'S to use local emergency rooms as their primary care provider because they cannot refuse you treatment, even if for the common cold. I see the system abused quite a bit, and it is because of these irresponsible people as well as the hoards of undocumented peoples that Hospital and insurance cost are out of this world ( FACT ).
Illegal immigrants and their children, many of whom were born in the U.S. and are citizens, make up a sizeable chunk of the often-cited 46+ million people without health insurance in the U.S.
The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that as many as 15 million of the uninsured in the U.S. are undocumented immigrants and their children.
Just saying ...
This does not include those who receive Medi-Cal / Medi- care for their Children which is Medical Insurance BTW.
They appear to estimate that there are around 10.8M illegal immigrants http://cis.org/IllegalImmigration-ShiftingTide, which according to your numbers means that 4.2M are US citizen children of illegal immigrants, or in other words, US citizens.

Of course, what it dose require is for a US administration to grasp the nettle of immigration reform, if they did then the cost of a head of lettuce would rise, but those (now legal) people picking them might be able to get themselves some sort of health insurance.

I've no doubt the ER room system is abused - if I couldn't afford insurance and was ill I'd be using it as well. Perhaps if the US had some sort of universal single-payer coverage the costs would no longer be "out of this world", we may even get the US 16+% down more towards the UK's 9%?

I think you'll find that Medicare and Medicaid are funded by taxation, a bit like the NHS.

Love your "just saying ..." bit - classy!
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 10:11 am
  #266  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Oregon4now
As I stated several post above.. MANY do not use the PUBLIC resources available to them at no Co$t, not one red cent.

The American Heart, Diabetes, Lung, Vision, Kidney, Hearing, Blood pressure,
Blood test, Cancer screening, list goes on } Associations, ALL offer, some several times a year Free screenings & Testing in almost every American city.
Most major cities have Health Fairs every year, check out your local listings people, There is so much out there in Govt $$$$$ to fund these programs which are not being used and resourced by those who claim to need it so much..
But what do I know, right ?
So, why bother having insurance at all then, if you can get all this for free?

Actually, if ALL those that are uninsured did start to use these resources, how long do you think they would last? I mean they are all finite.
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 10:22 am
  #267  
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Cape Blue
They appear to estimate that there are around 10.8M illegal immigrants http://cis.org/IllegalImmigration-ShiftingTide, which according to your numbers means that 4.2M are US citizen children of illegal immigrants, or in other words, US citizens.

Of course, what it dose require is for a US administration to grasp the nettle of immigration reform, if they did then the cost of a head of lettuce would rise, but those (now legal) people picking them might be able to get themselves some sort of health insurance.

I've no doubt the ER room system is abused - if I couldn't afford insurance and was ill I'd be using it as well. Perhaps if the US had some sort of universal single-payer coverage the costs would no longer be "out of this world", we may even get the US 16+% down more towards the UK's 9%?

I think you'll find that Medicare and Medicaid are funded by taxation, a bit like the NHS.

Love your "just saying ..." bit - classy!
I am completely aware that those are some of the Taxpayer funded Social programs available here in the USA, I did not mean to give you the impression that I was unaware of that fact.

I am just old school 'American in thought' I guess, I was raised to fend for myself when I grew up and I raised my own child the same way with wonderful results I am proud to say. I do not have a Fix it solution as far as so called Universal healthcare for the USA. I do not see it as simply as others do, I do agree that Medical care in this day and age should be available to any and all who seek help and like you wrote, if I was without ins and needed treatment I would probably also use the emergency room, because I had before when I did not have insurance, I did the responsible thing though, I contacted the finance department , made arrangements, got the cost cut in half and PAYED MY BILL in monthly installments .
Just saying..
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 10:27 am
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by zargof
So, why bother having insurance at all then, if you can get all this for free?

Actually, if ALL those that are uninsured did start to use these resources, how long do you think they would last? I mean they are all finite.
I gave a list how you can get FREE diagnosis, Learn to read my friend.
In answer to your second question, who knows ? The problem seems to be getting people to use them in the first place, let's not put the cart before the horse.

Let me add these few Links, hopefully it can provide a reader of this post or somebody they know the resources available to them in their local community.

http://www.americanheart.org/present...ifier=10000028

http://www.kidneyfund.org/get-tested/

http://lafreebee.com/free-services/w...th-screenings/

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2010/...1581276924299/

There are so many more available, I am just short of time to list them for everybody, But they ARE OUT THERE, USE THEM OR LOSE THEM. !!

Last edited by Oregon4now; Dec 7th 2010 at 10:44 am. Reason: Not trying to be a Snot....
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 10:44 am
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Default Re: RECENT TRIP TO ENGLAND

Originally Posted by Oregon4now
I am completely aware that those are some of the Taxpayer funded Social programs available here in the USA, I did not mean to give you the impression that I was unaware of that fact.

I am just old school 'American in thought' I guess, I was raised to fend for myself when I grew up and I raised my own child the same way with wonderful results I am proud to say. I do not have a Fix it solution as far as so called Universal healthcare for the USA. I do not see it as simply as others do, I do agree that Medical care in this day and age should be available to any and all who seek help and like you wrote, if I was without ins and needed treatment I would probably also use the emergency room, because I had before when I did not have insurance, I did the responsible thing though, I contacted the finance department , made arrangements, got the cost cut in half and PAYED MY BILL in monthly installments .
Just saying..
I'm sorry, I thought when you said:
This does not include those who receive Medi-Cal / Medi- care for their Children which is Medical Insurance BTW.
that you were saying that they were medical insurance.

Regarding you paying your bill (or 50% of it) - that is the responsible thing to do and I would be doing the same. What about if your bill was $1M and you got it down to $0.5M - would you be paying off $20K pa for the next 25years? (what if you were a low earner only on $25K pa - you would be paying all your spare cash for the rest of your life?) I seem to remember that medical bills are the #1 source of bankruptcy in the US with the majority of those people having health insurance! (found this with a quick look http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/h...e?_s=PM:HEALTH)

I am not suggesting people shouldn't pay their bills, I am suggesting that a national insurance scheme might give universal coverage at a lower overall cost (re % GDP) - due to reduce billing administration and increased buying power. This does not negate those who would like top-up coverage buying it if they so desired.

It might also provide better employment flexibility and mobility and have other non-medical financial benefits.

I don't believe it will ever happen in the US - insurance and pharmaceutical companies have far too much strength for that.
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Old Dec 7th 2010, 10:51 am
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Having once worked for a non-profit that helps people in financial difficulty I have seen first hand those who, for various reasons, do not have health insurance. A burn victim whose body and face is horrible scared but has exhausted any "free" options open to her and has to deal with horrible disfigurement. The older generation who can't afford to get all their medications every month as well as eat and pay for the roof over the heads, so instead take some of their medicine one month, and then take the rest the other month in the hope it will help stretch their medicine further. People who had lost their jobs, and when they had gotten new ones weren't able to get medical insurance because of pre-existing health conditions.

There is something seriously wrong with the health care access in this country. I am not for one minute saying that the NHS is perfect, and the US system is crap, far from it, but there have been occasions where I had gotten home from work and cried over the despair that I've seen in the faces of so many people. So no one can tell me that there is help out there for everyone here, because it's just not true!

(Sue who had to get that off her chest and is now stepping down from her soap box)
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