British Expats

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-   -   Orwell And His Memory (https://britishexpats.com/forum/rovers-return-111/orwell-his-memory-929260/)

scot47 Nov 14th 2019 11:54 am

Orwell And His Memory
 
Come and join us in remembering the secular prophet Eric Blair on the Sunday nearest the date of his death. In Sutton Courtenay, near Oxford, 21 June 2020. PM me for details.

robin1234 Nov 15th 2019 12:01 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Well, as you see, my avatar is Eric Blair. I’ve felt very close to him all my life. I keep returning to his writings, the essays and journalism mostly, some of the novels.

scot47 Nov 15th 2019 4:16 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Orwell was himself "an expat" while working for the Colonial Police in Burma. In his day that label had not been invented.It is a modern coinage and I will welcome its disappearance !

https://sites.google.com/site/orwell...l-police-force

scot47 Nov 16th 2019 5:58 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Those with an interest in George Orwell might like to look at this - https://orwellsocietyblog.wordpress.com/

robin1234 Nov 16th 2019 6:20 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Here’s a review of a very interesting & unusual book about George Orwell, Eric & Us by Jacintha Buddicom, the new edition published in 2006.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...well.biography

Buddicom was a childhood friend of Eric Blair’s, so this is an unusual perspective. (That Guardian review looks interesting, I didn’t read it yet but I will.)

One of the interesting things about Orwell bibliography is that he adamantly did NOT want any biographies written about him. This desire was honoured for many years, I believe. It had a great influence on folks reading about Orwell and studying him in the 1950s and 60s. It meant you read the voluminous books, novels, journalism that he left behind, and perhaps scholarly books that studied his influence on our world, but there wasn’t much in the way of straight biography.

Of course, when the dam broke, it broke with a vengeance - there are so many biographies of Orwell available now it’s ridiculous. The Buddicom one is interesting and worth a read, though. You meet a very different person than the one Eric Blair painstakingly invented.

scot47 Nov 16th 2019 7:24 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
In the 1960s when I found books by Orwell in the public library, secondary texts were simply not there. Now, as Robin says there are tonnes of commentaries, biographies and critical works. I think I preferred things as they were in my youth. Not just in the field of Orwelliana !

robin1234 Nov 16th 2019 8:32 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12764791)
In the 1960s when I found books by Orwell in the public library, secondary texts were simply not there. Now, as Robin says there are tonnes of commentaries, biographies and critical works. I think I preferred things as they were in my youth. Not just in the field of Orwelliana !

Yes, and yes!

OK I just read that review article in the Guardian (my post two above this.) OMG. I realize now, I read the original edition of Buddicom’s book, 1973, but not the 2006 edition. Now I’ll have to find the 2006 ed.

Gordon Barlow Nov 18th 2019 8:11 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
I read "1984" fifty or sixty years ago, and it raised the hairs on the back of my neck then. I must say I didn't expect it to become an Office Manual for the Western World's rulers!

Never did get around to reading all his books, but I liked every one I did read: "The Road to Wigan Pier", "Down and out in London & Paris", "Homage to Catalonia"... "Animal Farm" was a wonderful example of how stories don't have to be full-book length to be effective.

Those are the ones that spring to mind; there may have been others; I'll have to check with Wikipedia. There was one about his early life in Burma, I think.

Anyway... I'm with you both, and I feel privileged to be in your company!

scot47 Nov 19th 2019 7:21 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
"Burmese Days" is a novel based on Orwell's five years in provincial Burma. He served as a police officer. He was born in India where his father was an official in The Opium Office. Born in Motihari -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motihari

And grew up speaking Hindustani.

Shard Nov 19th 2019 9:07 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
When I read 1984 (in 1984, if memory serves!) I recall being amazed at the concept of the TV screen being able to see the viewer. It didn't occur to me at the time that it would simply be a case of including a tiny lens as we have now on tablets and smartphones. I assumed the whole screen would through some advanced technology mirror the room and send the feed to BB.


robin1234 Nov 19th 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
One thing about Orwell’s legacy in the United States, in my experience - Americans are fixated on Animal Farm and 1984. He may as well have published nothing else. Further, his legacy seems firmly cooped by the conservatives and libertarians - little recognition that he was a socialist.

Shard Nov 19th 2019 2:55 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12765942)
One thing about Orwell’s legacy in the United States, in my experience - Americans are fixated on Animal Farm and 1984. He may as well have published nothing else. Further, his legacy seems firmly cooped by the conservatives and libertarians - little recognition that he was a socialist.

Probably true. The only other of his books that I've read is Down & Out, and that is by far my favorite.

Gordon Barlow Nov 20th 2019 12:02 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12765774)
... And grew up speaking Hindustani.

I don't think he would have grown up speaking Hindi/Hindustani, since according to the Wiki entry he spent his childhood in England. Perhaps he studied it in his later life?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...george_orwell/

BritInParis Nov 20th 2019 12:32 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12765942)
One thing about Orwell’s legacy in the United States, in my experience - Americans are fixated on Animal Farm and 1984. He may as well have published nothing else. Further, his legacy seems firmly cooped by the conservatives and libertarians - little recognition that he was a socialist.

Conservatives/libertarians are keen on him and the modern left less so because he satirised the rank hypocrisy and contradictions at the heart of a certain strain of socialism, one which is very much in vogue.

scot47 Nov 20th 2019 12:40 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Gordon. The servants in his parents' house, including his ayah spoke Hindustani.. He amny have studied Hindi for the exams to get into the Police in Burma. It is attested (by whome) that he spoke French, Hindi and Burmese. Serving police officers in Colonial India (includinbg Burma) were required to learn local languages. Promotion was dependant on passing language exams.


I have had some discussions on this with other "expats". Interesting to consider how some modern "expats" resist the acquisition of local language(s)

robin1234 Nov 20th 2019 1:33 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
On the topic of Eric Blair’s birth in India, these two articles in Wikipedia seem to have a different story about the extent to which he’s memorialized in the town of his birth;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motihari

Kokocookman Nov 20th 2019 2:47 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Question?
What “strain of socialism” are you referring to?
Im sure I probably have this wrong, but I thought socialism on its own isn’t really a “thing”. It’s almost always linked to another form of governing. Fascism, communism, etc.
It also seems to be, historically speaking, simply a device to stir a sentiment of solidarity and hope (reasonably as these are massively popular with the populace) to garner compliance.
What I’ve read of Orwell, he seems to depict the perversion of the idea of an egalitarian society. The precarious balance of a government that protects it citizens and of one that has over reached, to the utter destruction of individualism for the sole purpose of complete power.
durno? I’m a yankee

spouse of scouse Nov 20th 2019 2:53 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by Kokocookman (Post 12766337)
Question?
What “brand of socialism” are you referring to?

Just a tip - if you click on 'Quote' at the bottom of the message you're replying to and type your post in the box that appears, then both that message and your own post will appear together, as in this post to you. Then the person you're asking the question of will know it's them you're asking.

scot47 Nov 20th 2019 4:10 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
I think some people in Motihari are now taking Orwell a bit more seriously. Orwell himnself said the three great ills of modern times were

Imperialism
Fascism
Stalinism

and described himself as "A Democratic Socialist " He was a member of the ILP.

robin1234 Nov 20th 2019 12:37 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by Kokocookman (Post 12766337)
Question?
What “strain of socialism” are you referring to?
Im sure I probably have this wrong, but I thought socialism on its own isn’t really a “thing”. It’s almost always linked to another form of governing. Fascism, communism, etc.
It also seems to be, historically speaking, simply a device to stir a sentiment of solidarity and hope (reasonably as these are massively popular with the populace) to garner compliance.
What I’ve read of Orwell, he seems to depict the perversion of the idea of an egalitarian society. The precarious balance of a government that protects it citizens and of one that has over reached, to the utter destruction of individualism for the sole purpose of complete power.
durno? I’m a yankee

“It’s almost always linked to another form of governing. Fascism, communism, etc.”
I’d add “democracy” to that list. The British Labour Party was a socialist party until the 1990s, of course it was committed to democracy. Same with social democrats in Germany, Sweden, a ton of other western democracies.
“What I’ve read of Orwell, he seems to depict the perversion of the idea of an egalitarian society.”
In his books 1984 and Animal Farm, yes. Of course, these were only a small part of his total oeuvre. He saw the Second World War as a dangerous government overreach in Britain, with widespread surveillance, propaganda and suppression of freedom of the press. (Of course, he was part of this himself, with his propaganda work for the BBC.) He also wrote during the twenties and thirties when he had other priorities..


scot47 Nov 20th 2019 2:53 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
His dystopian vision of "1984" was partly based on his experiences working for the BBC !

He was a member of the ILP. For those not familiar with the history of the English Left, have a look at this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Labour_Party

robin1234 Nov 20th 2019 4:44 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Talking about the BBC, I’ve meant to read the history by the great Asa Briggs. Three volumes, maybe. It never quite gets to the top of the to do list, and at this point, it may never happen.

I guess I misremembered. It’s the History of Broadcasting in the UK, and it’s at least four volumes..

Shard Nov 20th 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12766611)
His dystopian vision of "1984" was partly based on his experiences working for the BBC !

He was a member of the ILP. For those not familiar with the history of the English Left, have a look at this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Labour_Party

That makes a lot of sense, but also, kind of detracts from the dystopia in that it was not purely imagined.

scot47 Nov 20th 2019 8:11 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
English Public School, Colonial Police Force under The Raj, The BBC - that sounds dystopian to me !

Shard Nov 21st 2019 11:46 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12766822)
English Public School, Colonial Police Force under The Raj, The BBC - that sounds dystopian to me !

:rofl:

Gordon Barlow Nov 22nd 2019 1:51 am

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
An interesting opinion on the supposed origin of 1984's "Thought Police".
https://fee.org/articles/the-origins...they-scare-us/

scot47 Dec 1st 2019 1:37 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Join us on Bute on Saturday 30 May 2020 for a Day on Orwell

"Orwell Who He Was and What He Wrote".

11 AM to 4 PM

scot47 Dec 2nd 2019 1:53 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
Tyop from me. Daet is 30 May !

BEVS Dec 2nd 2019 6:44 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12772720)
Typo from me. Date is 30 May !

I adjusted for you .

kimilseung Dec 2nd 2019 7:49 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
I am a bit of a fan of Orwell, one of few writers that I have dug in to their essays and journalism. There was (is) a collection in four volumes of these shorter pieces. I prefer his non fiction to his fiction, Homage to Catalonia standing out strong.
i too have noted how two of his novels are obsessed over in the States, predominantly by the right, though their message is relevant to all, his more clearly socialist work might as well not exist in the US.

kimilseung Dec 2nd 2019 8:13 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 12767589)
An interesting opinion on the supposed origin of 1984's "Thought Police".
https://fee.org/articles/the-origins...they-scare-us/

Koestlers books, compliment Orwell's. Koestler was imprisoned in Spain and wrote a novel depicting the Stalin trials, and the thinking that may make the falsely charged view it as good politically.

Darkness at Noon
Spanish Testament/Dialogue with Death

robin1234 Dec 3rd 2019 2:52 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by kimilseung (Post 12772860)
Koestlers books, compliment Orwell's. Koestler was imprisoned in Spain and wrote a novel depicting the Stalin trials, and the thinking that may make the falsely charged view it as good politically.

Darkness at Noon
Spanish Testament/Dialogue with Death

Koestler is a fascinating character, very prolific writer on all sorts of topics. I always thought of the two of them together, devouring their works as a teenager. One interesting thing, they were personally total polar opposites. One was English through and through, the other was a multilingual cosmopolitan who deliberately became “more English than the English,” like many other deracinated middle Europeans of his generation. Others that spring to mind are Stefan Zweig and Elias Canetti. And like Canetti, Koestler was personally an evil and repellant person. (Serial rapists and abusers both.)

Koestler and Zweig both committed suicide, and both caused their wives to also die in suicide pacts. Canetti, for his part, encouraged more than one woman to commit suicide. Iris Murdoch was in an abusive relationship with him for many years, in which she consented to be abased and humiliated by him in public etc..

By comparison, George Orwell was by all accounts a considerate & decent man and treated his friends well.

scot47 Dec 3rd 2019 5:39 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
The same generation as Eric Blair. Also a great influence on my generation - A Brief Wyndham Biography

robin1234 Dec 3rd 2019 6:05 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12773366)
The same generation as Eric Blair. Also a great influence on my generation - A Brief Wyndham Biography

Interesting. I read Day of the Triffids, Chrysalids, and Kraken Wakes as a youngster. I don’t think I knew he died relatively young. I feel in that generation, there’s quite a genre of science or engineering-based novels - whether fantasy or reality based. These were often men who had worked as scientists or in intelligence during the war. Two others I’m thinking of are Nigel Balchin and Nevil Shute. Many of his novels are set in WWII, often RAF settings.

BEVS Dec 3rd 2019 8:05 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by scot47 (Post 12773366)
The same generation as Eric Blair. Also a great influence on my generation - A Brief Wyndham Biography

I think I will try to read that. Like Robin1234 I avidly read all his books as a youngster. Same for Orwell.

BritInParis Dec 3rd 2019 8:44 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12773387)
Interesting. I read Day of the Triffids, Chrysalids, and Kraken Wakes as a youngster. I don’t think I knew he died relatively young. I feel in that generation, there’s quite a genre of science or engineering-based novels - whether fantasy or reality based. These were often men who had worked as scientists or in intelligence during the war. Two others I’m thinking of are Nigel Balchin and Nevil Shute. Many of his novels are set in WWII, often RAF settings.

Arthur C. Clarke comes to mind as well.

kimilseung Dec 3rd 2019 11:39 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 

Originally Posted by robin1234 (Post 12773256)


Koestler is a fascinating character, very prolific writer on all sorts of topics. I always thought of the two of them together, devouring their works as a teenager. One interesting thing, they were personally total polar opposites. One was English through and through, the other was a multilingual cosmopolitan who deliberately became “more English than the English,” like many other deracinated middle Europeans of his generation. Others that spring to mind are Stefan Zweig and Elias Canetti. And like Canetti, Koestler was personally an evil and repellant person. (Serial rapists and abusers both.)

Koestler and Zweig both committed suicide, and both caused their wives to also die in suicide pacts. Canetti, for his part, encouraged more than one woman to commit suicide. Iris Murdoch was in an abusive relationship with him for many years, in which she consented to be abased and humiliated by him in public etc..

By comparison, George Orwell was by all accounts a considerate & decent man and treated his friends well.

Interesting details on Koestler. I read several of his books and know his basic biographical details, but know little about his personal life.

scot47 Dec 4th 2019 2:04 pm

Re: Orwell And His Memory
 
I remember reading Koestler as a teenager in the 1960s. Formative in my anti-Stalinist ideas.


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