Funky Monkey

You are right maybe I have not been over to the eastern states. I am not a godzoner in fact very far from it. I was well travelled all over the U.K and I am well balanced. Here in Perth there is no doubt in my mind that it is way behind the U.K in many aspects of the social troubles they have with the youngsters. Kids are kids here longer and I see far less random vandalism here than in the U.K. Yes there are hassles but I find the kids better behaved here in general, yes there is more graffitti but maybe they don't clean it up as much.

Essex_Man

I'm not asking whether the government should be morally responsible. But I'm blame the last government for making Britain to expensive for the average working man/woman. Which both governments have fail to do......if only we could have Britain like Canada it truly would be a even better place. Low wages equals poverty and crime and hurts everyone. Just like Britain is hurting now IMO.

flashman

Maybe a lot of these issues can be simply blamed on overcrowding. So many people in such a small island must create all kinds of social problems.

iaink

I could have written that about my corner of canada

If you ask me governments dont have much control over society, they simply come to reflect the people that elected them in the hope of staying in power. Governments come and go anyway, if you dont like it, vote against them. If enough people agree, then change occurs.

JulieinAustin

I'm not sure that you can blame low wages, expense etc. I'm living in Austin, Texas at the moment and salaries are low here compared to the rest of the states and from what I've seen your average Joe on $10 per hour struggles a lot more than say someone in the same boat in the UK.. yet the crime rate here is one of the lowest in the states; how do you explain that!! I personally think it's more to do with society in general and the way you're brought up.

Cape Blue

Not sure thats quite the case - if you look at 2007 rapes:

Texas 8400 with population 24M - one rape every 2857 people
UK 14000 with population of 60.8M - one rape every 4343 people

makes someone in Texas 50% more likely to be a victim.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/h...7_07_crime.pdf

Clearly you can choose what crime you want to compare, for murders the data is UK 755, Texas 1420 - you are about 450% more likely to be murdered in Texas.

And so on.

Of course, this might just contrast how low crime is in the UK compared to the US in general.

Bevm

I assume society in general would be the States, but as you say, Austin has a low crime rate. Detroit and Washington, I think, have very high rates. So there has to be something about the place.

People have a very different opinion of crime in England, depending on where they live. Same in Canada.

I agree that money isn't the root of it. A community can be poor and law-abiding, and often happy. Rich communities can have loads of crime going on, but it tends to not be so much in-your-face. As the Duke of Wellington said (though not about crime) as long as they don't do it in the streets and scare the horses.

I think most problems come from lack of hope and boredom, and they often go together. Most people like to belong to a useful group, which is why emergencies brings out the best in us all. Unfortunately, it also leads to gangs and other groups.

Bev

iaink

Comparing crime statistics internationally is a pointless task... its virtually impossible to be sure your are comparing apples to apples, every country has different reportable standards.

For example, canada looks bad for rape stats, but then you need to be aware that there is no specific law for rape, so any assault, no matter how serious or trivial is lumped under sexual assault. In addition there is no police discretion allowed and victims cannot chose to drop charges, so the police have to report every case that comes there way, even if later withdrawn, so the "Rape" stats seen by international statisticians in fact cover a much broader range of offences than some other countries.

Canada is far from unique in these peculiarities, so it really is a case of "buyer beware" if trying to prove any point about the relative merits of one society over another through examining the crime stats.


What really matters in the real world is the "perception of crime" among a nations population..ie how likely people feel that they might will be a victim (whether they are or not), as thats what detracts from your day to day "quality of life", and thats not necessarily reflected in actual crime stats, but in the nations psyche...then you are into psychological surveying, and thats an equally subjective and thankless task...

In reality its extremely unlikely any of us will be murdered, so does it bare any relevence to our day to day life....On the otherhand burgulary is far more common, but I wonder how many people in the UK even bother reporting thefts to the police now for items valued below the point its worth claiming the insurance are nicked, as they know that bugger all will happen as a result anyway...

cricket1again

I believe most of society's problems today stem from a lack of connectedness or bonding.
If you look back, wars created a common cause amongst people and life then was far more stable in many ways. In fact, some statistics show that suicide amongst men goes down during a war because of the united cause that bonds them together. They suddenly have friends and a purpose.

I find many Australians selfish and unaware, which stems from their self sufficiency mostly. They don't really need anyone plus they have not gone through and major crisis such as a war, therefore they are not really bonded together by any common cause.
I've been here almost 6 years now so when I hear Brits lamenting on how they are finding it to make friends here and fit in, I think what they are finding is pretty much what I have described.

Britain has been through a lot of war and upheaval and this has bonded communities together so socially, it is easier to mix and make friends in the UK because the common ability to bond is still there.

However, as we have all seen, since the end of war, and liberation, the right to do whatever we want, have what we want, spend what we want, unguided and unpoliced, we've become selfish too, detached from any common cause bonding us together.
We no longer go to Church, our government is weak and corrupt, we have no leaders, moral or spiritual and without any sense of purpose or direction, society is starting to fall apart, not just in the UK but everywhere in the modern world.

I don't have any answers. These are just my observations but possibly it is time for some of the big role models, currently on TV, to start showing some older values to our younger generation, because sadly without leadership or moral correctness, celebrities are the new God.

Essex_Man

I tend to agree with that.



When your working a 60-70 hour week to have a room and your making less than someone who claiming the dole. Then it becomes an issue. The high cost of rental housing is to blame which was created by thatcher selling of the council housing stock for peanuts which created the housing boom. which affect everything including retail and affectly created a country that very few can really afford to live in unless you lucky and get a council house if very hard to get any where. I believe affordable housing and higher wagers makes a better place. Canada is proof of that. altho the shit starting to hit the fan here. we still have a long way to go. but I have seen proof and I think England would be a much better place for it....

Cape Blue

To an extent I agree, what I think they do show is indicative, is that most crime rates are similar across the developed world and the idea that is far safer than the UK is quite probably wrong.

I used the murder stats as they are one of the crime stats that are more likely to be equivalent in their measurement across countries.

I wonder how many people in Texas or anywhere else bother reporting thefts to the Police when they know bugger all will happen.

Perception of crime I suspect is badly skewed by the media in any particular country. I was staying in the area of the LA Santa Claus murders in Dec and whilst it made the local news, 3 days later back in the Bay Area (few hundred miles away) you would not know it had ever happened - in the UK it would have been front page across the country for the next few weeks indicating a "crisis in our society" (and probably blamed on Muslims, single mothers or whoever else is this months whipping boy).

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Nine_dea...e_in_LA_suburb

There would have been questions in parliament, huge amounts of angst and hand wringing about it, TV shows discussing it with people saying "it wasn't like this in the good old days" and "what did our grandfathers fight in WW2 for, they'd be turning in their graves" and every other BS cliche they can come up with about our "damaged society" - I suspect its this sort of thing that creates a perception of crime and that it is much worse than it used to be (it isn't).

cricket1again

I came from the poorest of backgrounds. We never had a council house or benefits. We went hungry and lived in a freezing cold house (because the electricity had been cut off) until my dad found work and got paid again.

There was no one to blame for our situation back then except ourselves. So we had to fix it, which we did.
Part of this generation's main problems are the NANNY STATE. Plus refusing to be accountable, expecting others to take responsibility, blaming someone else when it doesn't happen and then their own attitude of 'entitlement'.

The sad thing is that this attitude ie your attitude of blame, is what keeps people stuck. As long as you rely on some greater power releasing you from your own situation, often created by you, then you will stay on that same old hamster wheel going round in circles.
I'm not aiming my comments at you personally but I came from an extreme poor background, not that long ago. We got absolutely nothing. There were no handouts, no free house and benefits. We had to survive.

This early ,life gave me the impetus to break the circle and I live my life very differently today. It can be done. You just have to have a bigger vision and take responsibility for yourself.

Brisben

I grew up the same and agree, however taking responsibility and getting opportunities are different things altogether.

Personally having lived in the UK for 33 years, working in the USA and now living in Australia.

I can safely say I think the UK is a dump. There are certainly better places to live.

I supose it depends what your looking for in life and what suits you, I mean enough people love it over there.

Its not all bad, its ruined by the people, nothing else. The same thing that makes other countries like Australia great !

cricket1again

I'm pleased that you are happy. It's good to hear when people have found their ideal place in life.

I see very little difference in social problems though, between Australia and the UK. Maybe they are more spread out over a bigger land mass here in OZ, and right up close in your face in the UK.

But......the same 'lost generation' is still growing up here just as it is in the UK. I have several businesses, one in fashion. The number of teenage single mums spending all their benefits on clothes, make up, alcohol and cigarettes is staggering. And then planning another baby to get even more benefits.

That's why I think don't stop the benefits, but at least make them so that the children get them. Either in the form of tokens or some kind of voucher which can then be spent on the children's clothes and food.
Plus help people learn to live free of benefits by making them train in something that gives them a skill. They should earn their benefits not rely on them.


From what I've seen here at grass roots level, (having said this I am on the Gold Coast), it's no different between Australia or the UK. Same problems, just sunnier weather.

Brisben

Thats a fair post, I think your right too, same issues but just less prevelant due to land mass and person per capita etc.