Sabah MM2H
 

DCM Glad that MM2H Not Suspended Here (Sabah)

DCM glad MM2H is not suspended here | Daily Express Online, Sabah, Malaysia.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

It's difficult to find information about Sabah MM2H because there's no official website.

They had only 300 applications from 2011-2015. 25 of those were Brits:
MM2H a Let Down in Sabah

So, the scheme is massively under-utilised. I phoned up the Sabah Government MM2H contact (+60 88 488 813) and he told me that the requirements are exactly the same as for Peninsular MM2H.

I guess the Sabah application process is faster than in West Malaysia (if the latter was even open) because of the low volume.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Interesting!

For me 300 is not so low, because Sabah is really far away. I thought their applications mainly would come from Indos und Pinoys - wrong!

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Kota Kinabalu airport now has regular flights to and from Beijing (PEK), Chongqing (CKG), Shenzhen (SZX), Guangzhou (CAN), Hangzhou, Xian, Chengdu (CTU), Hong Kong, and Macau, as well as Taipei, Singapore, Manila, and Seoul. In fact for many of these cities the flight time is actually less than to KL. Turkish Airlines, Emirates and Qatar Airways fly to KK via KL.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

That's impressive - far better connectivity than Kuching. It's a pity Sabah are so unforthcoming about MM2H.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

I think that it has all happened within the last year or so. It seems to be a focus for Chinese tourism, but local travel agents are upset that Chinese travel agents are essentially acting as tourist guides in lieu of using local "licensed" agencies. There are even claims that they are taking their groups to tourism sites where there are no entry fees to cut costs. The one MM2H agent cited in the article seemed to believe that Chinese agents were somehow working aro

Not sure why Sabah is so attractive to Chinese tourists and MM2H applications...but there are even rumors that Jackie Chan has bought a property at the "Tip of Borneo".

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Has anyone on the Peninsular MM2H been allowed to
a) visit Sabah on anything more than a 90-Day Tourist Pass i.e. was your passport stamped with a 90-Day Pass that states "Permitted to Enter West Malaysia and Sabah and remain until______."

When entering Sabah did they cancel/revise the longer stay that allowed one to stay for the duration of your MM2H visa?

b) Has anyone with a Peninsular MM2H or Sarawak MM2H taken Residence in Sabah?

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

a) My passport is stamped in West Malaysia for 90 days stay. When I entered Sabah, they only stamped the day of entrance and when I exited Sabah there was no stamp on the exit or entrance to West Malaysia. It can be that if you get 90 days visa stamp in e.g. Kuala Lumpur and fly to Sabah, you can stay in Sabah for 90 days. This is my guess.

b) An agent in Sabah told me that in order to get MM2H in Sabah you need to cancel your a Peninsular MM2H. Is it possible that immigration in Sabah communicates with MOTAC in KL? But the last I've heard from an agent is that MM2H in Sabah wants you to live most of the time in Sabah. However, there is no mechanism to enforce it yet except that they will not extend your MM2H in 10 years if you can't prove that you lived significant time in Sabah.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Once you leave Malaysia and return on the MM2H Visa you should get a "Permitted to Enter West Malaysia and Sabah and remain until______." The officer will then write in the expiration date of you MM2H Visa. Technically that stamp should allow you to stay in West Malaysia until your MM2H expires but also allow you to stay in Sabah until then as well. So you could stay there in Sabah for 10 years on the Peninsular MM2H. Or vice versa.

If you have a 90 Day Visa stamp for West Malaysia that was supposedly superseded by the by the MM2H visa. But without the "Open" stamp that might not be obvious to a Sabah Immigration officer quickly flipping through the passport. Did they actually give you 90-Days afresh in Sabah? Or did they write something on the stamp that gave you less than that (90 days - minus the days you had stayed in West Malaysia)?

Now can you have a Sabah MM2H and a Peninsular MM2H in your passport at the same time? Probably not. They would cancel one and issue the other. They do that with work visas converted to spousal visas, or student visas switching to work visas, etc. But that is a different issue than whether you can live in the Peninsula on a Sabah MM2H or in Sabah on a Peninsular MM2H. That relates to the stated privileges of the Visa.

There is virtually no difference in the financial requirements or obligations between the two Visas. Both have the same income and FD requirements. On the surface there would be no reason that someone PLANNING on living on the Peninsula would apply in Sabah, or vice-versa. But recently there has developed a rationale. That's because of the slowdown and then suspension of acceptances on the Peninsula. Even before the Suspension it was taking 6-7 months for MOTAC to process the MM2H. I suspect in Sabah it took less than half that time. They only had about 300 applications from 2011-2016 (about 50 a year). But in 2018 that number was 3000...for one year! What happened?

Two things....1) the crack-down on Visa Hopping on the peninsula forcing people to either leave of shift to the MM2H program. Those who had been "theatened" and didn't want to risk a red stamp might go to Sabah to get a visa that they could have processed quickly. But then there is 2) the Suspension of Processing applications (mainly as a consequence of the Forest City situation). Many agents likely sold units with the promise of the MM2H and Chinese can't live in their units until they have a proper long-term visa (they can't visa-hop either). So how to get a quickie MM2H visa? Go to Sabah or Sarawak (a bit more complicated there as they require a Sarawakian Sponsor).

That may be why there is now a "verbal" policy that to get a Sabah MM2H you have to live in Sabah. But how they would enforce that is a problem. Do they require applicants to show a 2 year lease agreement (would a landlord actually agree to this without the applicant having a visa already)? An unscrupulous realtor could simply allow the applicant to withdraw...for a fee. Would Sabah immigration require a "check-in" every year (a la Thailand)? Checking the entry/exit visa stamps into Sabah to assure that the applicant lived a certain period of time in Sabah? Would that be 4 months, or 183 days (the time that most countries use for tax residency)? Lots of bureacracy and paperwork.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

What is the "Open" stamp?
I don't have MM2H yet and this is why I only have 90-days visa from the Peninsula. I got only one stamp in Sabah "Entered Sabah on ____". There is nothing there about how long I can stay in Sabah. So I am assuming that this would allow me to stay in Sabah until 90 days in the stamp from the Peninsula are off.
With the MM2H stamp from the Peninsula, this would work probably differently as you described, but I have no knowledge how.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

I asked "I don't have MM2H yet and this is why I only have 90-days visa from the Peninsula."

Yes you were a Tourist and received a Tourist Pass. That has nothing to do with MM2H. With a Tourist Pass you can only stay in Sabah THROUGH the length of time that the first entry visa allowed. That's why they write in the final date. Thus if you stayed in Peninsula Malaysia 1 month (30 days) and went to Sabah...you would only have an additional 60 days remaining. You COULD use that time completely in Sabah, or partially in Sabah and the rest in the Peninsula. Going to Malaysia or Sarawak does not constitute leaving the country and thus one would not get additional time added on to the initial 90 days by going to these States.

One could pass through Brunei, or go to the Philippines or into Indonesia, however. Those are the popular "visa hopping" destinations for East Malaysia (just as Singapore, Thailand, and Sumatra/Riau Islands are for West Malaysia).

I was looking for specific information from MM2H recipients, not tourists.

An "open stamp" is one that states "Permitted to Enter West Malaysia and Sabah and remain until______." That date will be the expiration date of your MM2H visa. There is no mention of "90 Days" or other specific time frame on the stamp (some people get "30 days" others even fewer).

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

We've just got approved for MM2H in Sabah. It took 1.5 months from the day of application.
The rules are not written yet, but they are working on making them in print. They say that after the rules are finalized this summer, the process will be longer because your police report will be sent to KL.
Currently, they don't want to consider applicants whose passports are stamped in KL. However, if you can convince their immigration why you can't stand living in the peninsula and you wish to live in KK, they will take your application. But they will not proceed without your rental agreement and a proof that you are relocating there.
KK is a nice place to live. Clean air compare to KL or Penang; sea view, beaches, great connectivity, good hospitals, great shopping, more relaxed compare to KL or Penang. Not without problems as everywhere else.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Doesn't almost everyone transit through KL? I don't really understand this. Or are they going to start reviewing the stamps to see if you are ONLY spending time in Peninsular Malaysia and not in Sabah. Are they going to do this review the first year after you get your visa? Seems a bit belated to wait ten years at renewal?

Interesting that they are requiring rental agreement...what other proof of relocation are they requiring? I'm also wondering if there will develop a cottage industry in "time shares" or if people will lease a place, and then just eat the deposit if they want to move back to the Peninsula. One of the great benefits of the MM2H was that you didn't have to actually live there for any length of time. One could defer the visa until you actually retired, or use it as a travel base for a couple of months and take off again.

What amount of time are they allowing MM2H and Sarawak M2H recipients for visits? I get three months as a tourist...but my understanding is that Peninsular Malaysians only get one month. Maybe I should not show them my Sarawak M2H Visa?

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

RedApe: Doesn't almost everyone transit through KL?
---- There are many options not to stamp your passport in KL. Kota Kinabalu has very good connectivity. E.g, you can fly from Singapore, or from Bangkok, or Manila... I have no idea why they don't like a stamp from KL. But this is what I was told by an agent in Sabah.

RedApe: Or are they going to start reviewing the stamps to see if you are ONLY spending time in Peninsular Malaysia and not in Sabah. Are they going to do this review the first year after you get your visa? Seems a bit belated to wait ten years at renewal?
---- Currently, there is no check on this by MM2H. They will not renew your MM2H in 10 years if you didn't spend significant time in Sabah. However, they may introduce something more concrete on this in the rules they are currently composing.

RedApe: Interesting that they are requiring rental agreement...what other proof of relocation are they requiring?
---- They asked us for a confirmation on our move from our relocation company, an original copy of our stamped rental agreement; pictures of the rental property, proof of a payment for security deposit and 1st month of rental. Keep in mind that if you rent something very cheap, they may suspect that you are not serious. So, you need to rent something which is comfortable for you to live there. We also told them why we prefer to live there and not on the peninsula. This should be your personal story.

RedApe: One of the great benefits of the MM2H was that you didn't have to actually live there for any length of time. One could defer the visa until you actually retired, or use it as a travel base for a couple of months and take off again.
---- Yes, therefore Sabah is not for such applicants. Their politicians want you to spend money there and benefit their economy.

RedApe: What amount of time are they allowing MM2H and Sarawak M2H recipients for visits? I get three months as a tourist...but my understanding is that Peninsular Malaysians only get one month. Maybe I should not show them my Sarawak M2H Visa?
---- Since you have Sarawak M2H Visa, you can stay in Sabah only one month. Is Sarawak M2H Visa not in your passport? Is it a card? You may try not showing it, I guess... Why do you want not to show it? Do you want to apply in Sabah? You don't want to live in Sarawak?

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Maybe the desire to not have short term MM2H residents had something to do with this issue.

Apparently some MM2H applicants were using an agent to set up some sort of rental with their property when the visa recipient was not present. It led to aproperties becoming derelict when the agent didn't properly maintain the units...and not paying the owners.

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malay...tration/570551

No, I'm not thinking of applying for the Sabah program, though I was considering renting a unit there which my landlord owns and maybe staying a year. Why Sabah, which appears to like our tourism money, would ban this seems contrarian. The reason I asked about allowable period is that I usually like to stay in Sabah for more than a month- doing a couple weeks of snorkeling and doing some trekking in Danum, around the Kinabatangan, and on Mt. Kinabalu. Odd that they'd allow three months for any other tourist, but an MM2H visa-holder they restrict to a month.

As to using Sabah for the MM2H...it's too restrictive on extended outside travel, and I don't think they are realistic on having to show that you have actually shipped household goods. It's taken me over a year to find a reasonable shipper. I'm doing fine living out of three suitcases and in a fully furnished apartment here in Sarawak. I'm not sure if the way they are setting it up will actually appeal to High Income Investors - which appears to whom they are targeting.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

RedApe: Maybe the desire to not have short term MM2H residents had something to do with this issue.
Apparently some MM2H applicants were using an agent to set up some sort of rental with their property when the visa recipient was not present. It led to aproperties becoming derelict when the agent didn't properly maintain the units...and not paying the owners.
https://www.malaymail.com/news/malay...tration/570551
------------- Investors bought shares and have apparently been defrauded. Lovely. Who want to continue payments if the land titles to the villas have not been transferred to the investors.

RedApe: Odd that they'd allow three months for any other tourist, but an MM2H visa-holder they restrict to a month.
------------- I've read that the reason that Sabah allows only one month stay is that they protect their jobs. However, their immigration officers can issue you a longer stay, maybe even one year, if you convince them that your reason to live there is for pleasure, not work. You can do this right at the border. Talk to an offices in a booth and then they will send you to talk to their manager. Show papers proving that you can support yourself; you visa in Sarawak will help too, your health insurance, a rental you intend to rent. It helps not to look like a hippie. :) This is my guess. Why not to try- it is relatively easy, right?

BTW since you like snorkeling, be careful about snorkeling in north-east of Borneo- there are cases of pirates killing tourists. Also, it looks like there is a big problem with stinging jellyfish everywhere in Malaysia and Thailand. Jellyfish grow out of control because their natural predictors are fished out, because of pollution and raising temperature of the water. Be aware of a deadly (for some people) box-fish. It is found even 3 hours out on a boat in the sea around Borneo.

RedApe: As to using Sabah for the MM2H...it's too restrictive on extended outside travel.
------------- Their rules currently are very vague on what it means staying in Sabah "considerable" amount of time. It is not written anywhere; it only comes from their judgement. I've read on a forum that they denied a visa extension because a person didn't live in Sabah practically ever. I don't understand why they can't make a written rule on how long an MM2H holder suppose to stay their.

RedApe: and I don't think they are realistic on having to show that you have actually shipped household goods.
------------- Probably even this depends on each applicant. It is up to you to prove that your intention to stay in Sabah is strong. Again, there are not written rules at this time. They scan you and your documents and just go by their belief if you are honest or not. Again, they are looking for the applicants who truly want to live in Sabah and contribute to their economy. We've been interviewed and they even asked us why don't we just buy a property there! They are afraid that we start renting just in order to get an approval.

RedApe: I'm not sure if the way they are setting it up will actually appeal to High Income Investors - which appears to whom they are targeting.
------------- This is why they wanted us to buy a property in order to be definitely qualified. But buying a property is a crazy option at the pick of the market. It is also risky for them even to ask for this, because there are countries where you can get a citizenship for buying a property. But Malaysia is offering only 10-year visa. Investors always consider what they get in return. Some High Income Investors like to move around and they don't want to be tied up to one place because they may be stripped of their permanent residence. This was one of the reasons why we didn't like a permanent residence in Malta. There are vaguely determined restrictions for a permanent resident holder on how long you can be out of country.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Regarding the shipping of household goods as proof of intent to reside in Sabah.

1) My understanding is that Malaysian Customs REQUIRES that one includes a copy of your VISA when your shipment arrives in Klang so that you can actually have it receive "tax-free" status. SO you need your MM2H Visa BEFORE you ship your goods. Then they transship it to KK (his is the onerous system of Cabotage that faces both Sarawak and Sabah).
2) Who would send their household good to a country where they have not already received assurances that they would be allowed to reside within a country?

While I can see this as being useful in RENEWING the Sabah MM2H visa it disqualifies almost everyone else. No original applicant would be able to ship their goods without proof of a Long-Term Stay Visa.

I don't think that whoever is making up these regulations has a lick of sense about the effects on the applicants...or a marketing or business sense. They go "how do we exclude the rabble (all but those who are wealthy and willing to buy property and spend all their time in Sabah- ergo even most middle class and upper middle class retirees)" and then don't realize that the reason the Wealthy ARE Wealthy is because they made shrewd, comparative business choices. You are absolutely correct...a wealthy person will demand citizenship, the opportunity to do business within the country, tax advantages, mobility (no restriction on movement), the right to buy lots of property (both high and low end). There are many countries that offer such things...not a bevy of restrictions. All they actually are doing is driving away most people who did apply.

If they create regulations and then later "bend them" it also scares away those that actually "read the brochure". That's the first filter, though an agent may say "don't worry about THAT, they will ignore THAT if you also show THIS". When an agent says such stuff it sounds like the rules don't mean anything...and that works both ways. I can also mean that a regulation that benefits the applicant/recipient may suddenly also be ignored. It implies a lawless society, where rules can be ignored for a little baksheesh. Or knowing the right people. Special rules for some and not others.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

RedApe, sorry for not answering earlier. We’ve been busy with relocating to KK, because we’ve got an approval, which came in just 1.5 months. We are very happy about this. Here are my answers to you-

RedApe: My understanding is that Malaysian Customs REQUIRES that one includes a copy of your VISA when your shipment arrives in Klang so that you can actually have it receive "tax-free" status.
------ When we've been shipping from EU to KL, they’ve been fine with just an email from MM2H office that we started the process. We paid no taxes on our shipped household goods.

RedApe: SO you need your MM2H Visa BEFORE you ship your goods. Then they transship it to KK (his is the onerous system of Cabotage that faces both Sarawak and Sabah).
------ I don’t know about this route, because we’ve been shipping from the peninsula to KK. Can’t you ship directly to KK from abroad? It is the best to consult shipping companies.

RedApe: Who would send their household good to a country where they have not already received assurances that they would be allowed to reside within a country?
------ We actually confirmed our rentals and shipment only AFTER the interview at the immigration in KK. I agree with you that it is risky. You really need to get a feeling from the immigration that you are welcomed there.


RedApe: I don't think that whoever is making up these regulations has a lick of sense about the effects on the applicants...or a marketing or business sense. They go "how do we exclude the rabble (all but those who are wealthy and willing to buy property and spend all their time in Sabah- ergo even most middle class and upper middle class retirees)" and then don't realize that the reason the Wealthy ARE Wealthy is because they made shrewd, comparative business choices.
------ Well, I understand that Sabah wants to get the benefit from the expats spending money in their economy. Though, it is interesting that they still didn’t put any restrictions in print for minimum stay in Sabah for MM2H holders. Many countries do have this restriction and this is one of the reasons why we like MY- we can actually live for some time in other countries.

RedApe: ...a wealthy person will demand citizenship, the opportunity to do business within the country, tax advantages, mobility (no restriction on movement), the right to buy lots of property (both high and low end). There are many countries that offer such things...not a bevy of restrictions. All they actually are doing is driving away most people who did apply.
------ I am not sure about “many countries”, however MY offers a very good deal. Therefore, this is why we picked MY as our home-base. He or she can get as many citizenship and permanent residences as they want and can.

Why Malaysia is so attractive for English-speaking expats?-
1) By our research, there are only a dozen countries, which have no taxation on a foreign income. MY is one of them as you know.
2) Filter out non English speaking countries. It is very comforting not to struggle with the official documents made in a foreign language.
3) Then consider cost of living.
4) Then consider natural disasters. MY is perfect in this respect.
5) Then consider crime level. (BTW, there are only 0.7 guns per person in MY and 120 guns/person in USA, as an example.)
6) Development level (health care quality and etc).
7) Pollution level.
8) Restrictions on PR, cost of maintenance, and also hidden costs. In case of citizenship, consider the cost of obtaining a citizenship.
I made a spreadsheet marking all possible parameters for comparison and MY came out as a winner! :)

RedApe: If they create regulations and then later "bend them" it also scares away those that actually "read the brochure". That's the first filter, though an agent may say "don't worry about THAT, they will ignore THAT if you also show THIS". When an agent says such stuff it sounds like the rules don't mean anything...and that works both ways. I can also mean that a regulation that benefits the applicant/recipient may suddenly also be ignored. It implies a lawless society, where rules can be ignored for a little baksheesh. Or knowing the right people. Special rules for some and not others.
----- Agree. This was one of the reasons why we left Malta, deciding not to proceed with their PR program. They simply don’t follow written by their own Agency rules. The worst may happen in Sabah is that they will not renew our visa after 10 years. Then, we will have another plan. I am sure that there will be great options in 10 years. Be optimistic about your future. :)

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

I've been to Sabah...ohhh..about 20 times in the last 20 years, so know all about the issues with "pirates" attacking tourists (more likely to be struck by lightning on a soccer pitch in my opinion). Agree with most of your points (2-7) but most countries do not tax foreign income as long as you earn and keep it outside the country or don't earn interest on it locally. There are tax treaties so that one doesn't pay double. The US and UK have tax treaties with scores of countries. And the US has fairly generous refits and exemptions if one does opt to pay taxes of foreign earnings. It really depends on your nationality and the country you are moving to permanently (or for a enough time to be a tax resident).

I've found crime vastly less worrisome here - but something is askew with your firearm ownership numbers. 0.7 guns per person in Malaysia would mean that of 10 people 7 Malaysians would own guns. And I seriously doubt that the average American owns 120 guns.

Lastly there is virtually no way to get a PR, and certainly not citizenship, in Malaysia. It would certainly be nice (particularly for property purchasers) if they counted your years of residency on MM2H as a a factor in awarding PR status. But MM2H tenure is specifically not counted towards the "lived her 10 years" criteria. A Social Visit Visa, or Work Visa, does count in this regard, but not MM2H. But there are other criteria as well to get the "points" to be awarded a PR. Married to a local, having kids, having contributed significantly to the Malaysian economy or culture, speaking BM fluently, etc. all accrue points.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

RedApe: you need your MM2H Visa BEFORE you ship your goods.
----- I already wrote earlier that just an email confirmation from your agent and mm2h office that you submitted your documents and went through the interview is enough. It worked for us in KL and probably the same in KK.

------ Regarding statistics on guns, type in your browser "amount of guns per person in countries" and go to wikipedia, which is very reliable source. 120 guns/person means that some people have huge amount of guns, because many people don't have any guns. I am not sure if this number includes police.

RedApe: It implies a lawless society, where rules can be ignored for a little baksheesh. Or knowing the right people. Special rules for some and not others.
---- It maybe true in some countries. However, it is a different case in Sabah. As we’ve been told, they are currently modifying their rules and it looks like they are simply testing their applicants by asking questions. This is my impression. They said that they will not going to check if we are staying in Sabah for 10 years or not. So, we will see. But we like Sabah so far and planing to have it as our homebase.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Re. Showing your goods have been sent to OBTAIN your Sabah MM2H Visa. That fact that you need the visa FIRST to obtain the Shipping Permits is precisely the problem. It's a classic Catch-22. You can't ship without proof (provided to the shipping company) that you hold a visa allowing you to ship Household items. And if Sabah is requiring that you show proof that one has shipped goods then it will likely prevent most from applying. As you note, you shipped your goods over from the Peninsula...so didn't have to go through customs on the Peninsula.

Re. Number of guns : Wiki and other statistical references (http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...ms-Numbers.pdf) show that it's estimated that there are @120.5 Civilian-held firearms/100 people in the USA...NOT 120 guns/person. While that's 1.2/person the distribution is likely heavily skewed with certain people holding arsenals, while others have no interest in having a weapon at all. There are also people that have "craft guns" (antiques, little used heirlooms, etc.). Canadians have about 1/3 as many weapons as those other North Americans just to their Southern border but vastly lower gun crimes...most weapons are specifically used for hunting/safety against wildlife. The US population (at least certain sectors) is vastly over-armed, and are more like nations that are in, or have just had, Civil Wars. I'm not excusing that.

Malaysia, by comparison, is virtually "gun-less" as it relates to non-military/police held weapons (0.7 per 100 civilians). The few guns out there are likely to be shotguns used for hunting wild boars and deer, a few illicit weapons carried by criminal Towkays, and some vintage weapons from the Konfrontasi period. Oh...and some weapons smuggled in from the Philippines (which has about 3.6 firearms per 100 civilians). Yeah, it is a lot safer here. Still no reason to be complacent.


And as I have said, whether people apply for the program in Sabah (or anywhere) is all about perception. You've successfully navigated the program. But others may find the "making up the rules as they go along" approach off-putting. Many people like written rules, especially for a decision that is important as finding a retirement locale, buying a property, moving their worldly possessions someplace. As you have indicated, Sabah may not be ideal for someone planning on living somewhere else for an extended period. If they need to work half the year outside Sabah, or want to (or must) travel a lot, then perhaps its not so ideal.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

RedApe: you shipped your goods over from the Peninsula.
----- When we've been shipping our good from EU to KL, our shipping company in KL was fine with just an email confirmation from MM@H office that our application was accepted. I am assuming the same applies if you ship to Sabah. However, it is not a requirement to show that you are moving your goods. This only will make your case stronger. Their MM2H office only requires you to rent or buy a property.

RedApe: Number of guns: 120.5 Civilian-held firearms/100 people in the USA..
----- Correct. Sorry, I overlooked. It is much better. :) But still too much.

RedApe: Sabah may not be ideal for someone planning on living somewhere else for an extended period.
------ Why would you have MM2H if you are not planning to live here? Just in case you may move here? Basically, if you are not planning to renew it in 10 years, you can still go through the trouble of getting it in Sabah and not live here all the time. Again, they don't say how much time is considered "significant" for staying in Sabah in order to renew your visa in 10 years.

RedApe: If they need to work half the year outside Sabah, or want to (or must) travel a lot, then perhaps its not so ideal.
------- It is only your assumption. They might be fine that you work abroad for 6 months and stay in Sabah for 6 months. Or travel for up to 6 months and then spend the rest of the time here. People have good reason to spend time abroad, e.g. grandparents are spending the whole summer with their children and grandchildren abroad. I really doubt that you will be refused to extend your MM2H in 10 years if you absent for 6 months visiting your family abroad.
As far as I know, they didn't extend this visa to someone who never even lived in Sabah. It would be nice if they didn't apply this rule retroactively to current MM2H holders who didn't even think that this can be an issue.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Income form overseas is not taxed in Malaysia.
I think Malaysia is a perfect base for living when working abroad (in other countries than Malaysia)

But - regarding liability for tax in ones home country, it depends of course on the applicable laws and ones residence status in the original home country.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Yes, Malaysia is perfect, because it doesn't tax on ANY foreign income.
However, one may still pay taxes to the countries where they receive earnings (stocks, properties, job and etc). The US citizens pay taxes no matter where they live abroad and no matter where they receive income.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

I agree...some people use the MM2H to provide the proof of residence outside the country (and this depends on the country of origin) required by their home countries for tax purposes.

Unlike a tourist who can travel outside their homeland for a year and still be taxed (because they have not technically established foreign residency), an MM2H gives one the evidence one needs to show an established residence outside the country for >182 days (for the US this is 330 days). One becomes a tax resident of that other country at that point, and subject to THEIR tax laws, not that of the homeland. If you are over 182 days in some countries (not just the US) one can be taxed on Worldwide Income. Things can get even more complicated if the home country has a tax treaty with Malaysia. This is a nation-to-nation agreement on who gets taxed, how much, and when that kicks in. The US does have tax treaties with a lot of countries and in these cases may not tax on worldwide income, but most US expats are going to be able to deduct taxes made by a foreign country (up to $104,000 of income).

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Aren't US citizens or taxable subjects (like green card holders) allowed a substantial deductible when they are living abroad?
I had some US colleagues and even though they were obliged to fill in their US tax returns, they were not paying any US tax.
Another guy who lived as retired in Austria with pension paid out for long term work in Europe did not file returns and was discovered by the iRS and even though his income wa below the deductible, he still had to pay a fine for not filing an income declaration.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

This information isn't correct, RedApe, though some people may have used this method in the past.

An MM2H visa is NOT evidence of residence in Malaysia since there is no obligation to have available accommodation or even to spend any time in Malaysia. In any case, under AEOI (which is now in operation) banks and other financial institutions will ask you for a TIN (Tax Identification Number) as a first step in establishing with whom they will exchange tax information. Failure to provide a valid TIN will result in them exchanging information on the basis of any prior information they hold or with their local tax authorities.

There are only 2 ways to get a Malaysian TIN; (i) to buy a property in Malaysia or (ii) to make a tax declaration in Malaysia, at which point the Malaysian tax office WILL check passport stamps and flight tickets to establish a minimum 183 days have been spent in Malaysia prior to issuing the TIN.

Even a TIN is not proof absolute of tax residence but currently no-one is asking for any additional evidence.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Yes US taxpayers living abroad can establish foreign residency in one of two ways. One is Physical Presence (first year 330 days). The other is the Permanent Domicile (which may include a combination of factors, including visa, property purchase, employer-provided property, foreign tax number, etc.) Though they don't require physical documentation WITH the tax form, they can require that if you are audited. Mind you that they are also receiving information from your bank now, so that anything that looks TOO sketchy will be obvious.

There are three options to deduct their foreign Earned Income. They can either use a deduction of their first $104K of foreign-earned income. The other option is the Foreign Tax Credit (which is a direct deduction from your US taxes of that paid in tax to a foreign country). You cannot do both. Or they can deduct/exclude their housing costs (up to 30% off their salary) provided they don't exceed their $104K maximum, and the costs are "reasonable" for the region. The allowances for the Housing deduction are quite generous and not only include rent, but utilities (but not phone, TV services, and internet), personal property insurance (such as homeowner’s or renter’s insurance), leasing fees, furniture rental, parking rental, and repairs. You cannot use mortgage payments, domestic labor (maids, housekeepers, etc.), purchased furniture, and anything deemed “lavish or extravagant.” For Malaysia the maximum housing exclusion is US$46,200 for KL and US$33,700 for other cities. Above that it's considered too opulent ;-)

Theoretically if someone is making US$90,000 in foreign income and lives in a $25,000 rental...they could exclude the maximum. They'd have no US tax obligation (though they'd have a Malaysian tax burden, likely much lower). Of course, they'd still be taxed on US income, though they could claim the personal deduction there. There are also deductions for dependents abroad.

The deduction is actually going to knock down the tax burden for most middle class WORKERS abroad...doesn't do much for Retirees (who cannot work, at least in Malaysia). Sure wish I could exclude my rent ;-)

US Citizens HAVE TO file a tax return provided that their income exceeds the Personal and Standard Deduction. Under the new tax code that's $12,400 for individuals and $24,400 for couples. I don't know the specifics about your acquaintance. I send my forms in regardless as they deduct tax in advance from my pension and I usually get a refund. If I didn't submit I'd lose about $1000/year. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p54.pdf

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Hi IVV,
MM2H may as you say, NOT be evidence by itself, but it helps :-)
I can only refer to my country of origin.
As long as my yearly visits there do not exceed a certain number of days then I am OK.
And I have a MY TIN number so the banks here are happy with that.

One must of coure act based on what ones home country requirments are and they can differ quite a lot.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Let's consider a scenario for expats, US citizens, and also retirees who live abroad for many years. It looks like they have to pay US taxes on their pension, medicare and any other forms of income generated in the US. Also if an income is generated abroad (e.g. from investment), they need to declare it to the US and possibly pay tax to the US on this too.
I understand paying taxes to a country where you live. But why do you want to be a citizen of a country which taxes you even if you don't live there and possibly never come back there to live?

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

This is way off topic. And perhaps the moderator would want to create a new thread for it?

Yes, you pay taxes on your pension (the argument is that was untaxed while you were working); Social Security is taxed but only if you make above a certain amount of other income and then at a lower rate than Earned Income would be); Medicare is not taxed...but you cannot receive it unless you live or return to the US and to get full coverage you must continue to pay a Premium. THIS latter is the most ridiculous, irrational and unjustified aspect...as the Medicare System (which covers about 20% of a seniors healthcare costs) would actually save money by subsidizing and encouraging people getting cheaper healthcare outside the USA. IMO The US government and the citizen both lose in this situation.

Now why be a citizen of such a country? Well, while it's easy to renounce (one simply goes into an embassy and makes a formal written statement of renunciation whereby you'll love your passport, and visas in that passport, and any other protections as a citizen)...it's damn near impossible to renunciate one's citizenship affordably. They will still tax any assets you haven or have earned in the US (the taxation occurs whether or not one is a US Citizen or US Resident). I think your question (because of the Tax Agreements and the Tax Deductions on foreign income) principally applies to the wealthy. You can renounce but there will be a period of several years where one is still on the hook and they will audit the hell out of a renunciate on whether they have secretly laundered $$ abroad to avoid taxes or avoid legal obligations (alimony, child support, paying of creditors). Most of the renunciations occur with "accidental Americans" who hold dual citizenship and may never have even visited the US. The others are usually wealthy who have been able to get citizenship in another country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation

There are some nations (tax havens) that have no personal income tax at all- whether citizen or non-citizen or whether you earn that in the country or outside...these are the famous Caribbean ones (Antigua, Bahamas, Cayman Islands, St. Kitts & Nevis, Turks & Caicos) and several in the Persian Gulf (Bahrein, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, UAE) and some small monarchies (Brunei, Monaco, Vatican City) and other oddballs (Maldives, Nauru, Pitcairn, St. Barthelmy, Vanuatu).

There are 4 tax categories:

1. Countries that tax citizens and legal residents on their worldwide income no matter where they live. These countries also tax residents on their worldwide income. That includes the US, Myanmar, Hungary and North Korea. Some countries tax residents and citizens on overseas income but at much reduced rates.The US and Hungary have a lot of tax treaties that exempt their citizens from foreign taxes. Several countries will continue to tax their citizens for a period of some years (Finland or Sweden), while others will tax their citizens for several years if they move to a "tax haven" (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Mexico, and France to Monaco). Turkey will tax foreign earnings unless tax has been applied by the resident country. The UK will tax foreign earned assets on anyone that owes on a Student Loan at a 9% levy, until paid off or 30 years..
2. Countries that tax residents on their worldwide income. This is called a residential or physical presence tax system. Most countries use this system.
3. Countries that tax citizen residents on their worldwide income but not foreign residents. This includes the Philippine (territorial taxation for foreigners) and Saudi Arabia.
4. Countries that tax residents on their local source income but not foreign source income. This is called a territorial tax system. These are mainly in Central America, some African countries and Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia

Tax treaties complicate things, and it's not so easy to say in individual situations that US citizenship is better or worse that other citizenship. It depends on where you live and the sources of your income. Oh and the benefits of citizenship that may be conferred.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Oh and as well as giving up your passport (make sure that you have your new citizenship in order), there is now a relinquishment tax" of $2350, and a tax (for those with net worth over $2 million or an income of $160,000/year for the past 5 years) on Capital Gains based on the value of your assets above $699,000 (i.e. if they were sold on the day of your renunciation/relinquishment). I don't know how much it costs too acquire a foreign citizenship in one of those tax havens but I doubt they are looking for folks in my income class.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Yes, it is off our topic on Sabah, but thank you for very good points on the citizenship and taxation. Thank you!

Regarding the Medicare System, there are certain considerations on why it is the way it is in the US.
Half of all U.S. hospitals loose on Medicare patients. You would think that it would be so much beneficial for the Medicare to reimburse expats for their medical bills abroad than to pay for the same patients at home.

If you have a private US based insurance, you can be reimbursed for some of your foreign medical bills, if the amount exceeds your deductible, which is usually several thousands dollars. It doesn’t look like the government wants to create an incentive for the Medicare patients to leave the country.
Even though the Medicare system will be out of funds in just 15 years, the government still doesn’t encourage you to leave the country. Why?

1) If you live in the US, you spend not only on your healthcare but also on your house, shopping, services and etc. Therefore, if you leave, all this revenue is gone.

2) If thousands of retirees will move abroad in order to get a better healthcare for less, this would be an embarrassment for the U.S. to admit that its healthcare system, in which people paid for several decades, is broken.

3) Medicare represents 1/3 of the healthcare load. Healthcare is 1/6 of the US economy. Big healthcare lobbyists work hard to increase their profit.
- A family practice physician can make a living on Medicare patients alone.
https://truecostblog.com/2010/03/10/...y-on-medicare/
The American Medical Association was the biggest spender for lobbying operations among health care groups. They definitely don't want their patients to move abroad.
- Drug lobbyists. Do I even need to comment on this?

4) Healthcare insurance companies are also among the largest lobbyists. Many older adults look forward to fulfilling their travel bucket list during retirement. Since Medicare will not cover international medical bills, travel insurance and evacuation insurance can be purchased for your travel at private health insurance companies. This is a big industry. I think if Medicare attempts taking this “bread” out of private insurances’ ”mouth”, they will react very strongly on this.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Yeah off topic, but I've done considerable research on this topic and have lobbied (as a citizen, not a member of any group) various politicians who assert they are interested in "Saving Medicare". The big problem is 3 & 4 (the Medical Establishment Lobbyists). They frequently assert, without evidence, that the quality of healthcare abroad is horrible, that allowing Medicare portability overseas would be subject to rampant fraud, and even that the government would be subject to liability suits if they "encouraged" Health Tourism. All absurd claims or easily resolved. But of course it's really about campaign contributions.

But let's just take one aspect of the Medicare system and how that portability would save the systems billions of dollars each year. It's forecast that there will soon be over a million hip/knee replacement procedures annually in the US. Typical costs are $50-$60,000, Ignoring the co-pays, deductibles and Plan B monthly premiums...Medicare will pay 80% ($40-$47,500) of the cost for the operation, the patient pays 20% ($10-12,500). Usually they have to wait until the problem reaches an excruciatingly level that can't be dealt with by walkers, or braces. Years of pain before approval (which impacts health in other ways). But if you get the procedure done in Thailand or Malaysia it can be under $10,000 total, done quickly, and with better post op rehabilitation care. Medicare could pay 100% and still save $30-$40,000 per procedure. Multiply that by 1 million. Thirty to Forty billion dollars...for one type of procedure. And they are worried by a few million in "fraud"?

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

There are only a few areas where the US is better than the developed countries where healthcare is socialized :
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/...ity-index-2016
Democrats in the US may break the power of big healthcare lobbyists and will adopt the same system as in these successful countries.

Overall healthcare in the US is still better than in Thailand and Malaysia where it can be cheaper, but not necessarily better:
https://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
The ratio of patients per nurse is very important for postop recovery. Even if your surgery will go well, you have a higher chance to die in the US after a surgery simply because there are not enough nurses to take care for you. I wonder how postop care is in Malaysia.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Still Searching,

Just curious : what attracted you to Kota Kinabalu / MM2H in Sabah, over Kuching/ MM2H in Sarawak?

I've looked at Malta and Cyprus, but in the end rejected both, and am looking seriously at MY now.

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Sarawak is a great place to retire as well as Sabah. We just picked Sabah.
It is the best to stay for some time in Sarawak and Sabah just to see what works the best for you.
I will list our considerations, which are obviously different for other applicants.

MM2H process:
- In Sarawak, the Personal bond must be sworn by a Sarawakian. I guess, we could find a Landlord, who is willing to "trust" us in order to sponsor us and go to the Immigration for an interview. In order to do this, we would need to start renting a flat or a house before applying for MM2H, because a Certified copy of sponsors ID (MyKAD) card is required. We were reluctant to search for a sponsor at that time.
- A visa is only for 5 years. It is 10 years for Sabah.
- Wait time for getting an approval was much shorter than in Kuching. We needed to get an approval asap, because we already relocated to MY. This may not be an issue for other applicants.

Place to live:
- We like to live in a low density apartment 1900-2200sf, with a big well maintained lap pool, away from the noisy roads, and within 5 min-drive to grocery stores. I couldn't find anything to our taste in Kuching. Most of the apartments are high-density and relatively small.
- We like green hills, mountain view and close proximity to the beaches in Sabah. We can see the ocean, green hills, mountain Kinabalu, and amazing sunsets from apartment. This is really nice. We take Grab and we get to a beach in 7 min. But Kuching is flat and doesn't have many easily accessible sandy beaches.

I found that cost for comparable apartments is a little lower in Kuching. Other factors like quality of shopping, hospitals, air quality, level of development are similar according to my on-line research. I've never been to Kuching. Hope to visit soon.

We've been considering Malta and lived there for several months through cold, windy and damp 6 months and hot and firework-noisy warm months. It is a much better choice to retire in Sabah (or Sarawak)!

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Thank you.
We will visit both KK and Kuching for a long vacation

Re: Sabah MM2H
 

Good idea. Keep in mind though that if you decide to apply in Sabah, their MM2H officers don't like a passport stamped in West Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur or Penang. They take it as a reason to deny the application.
If you decide on Sabah, you are very welcome to send me a message and I can share details of our process in getting a visa and etc.