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Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Old Sep 5th 2021, 5:43 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Originally Posted by GreenState View Post
Home minister: “If the participants are young and their income is just between RM1,000 and RM3,000 ...."
This ignorant guy is pulling random numbers out of his a$$.
He doesn't even know the real requirements for offshore income (or pension) is at least RM10,000.
He doesn't want to know all these numbers because his goal is not to create better business but for the foreigners not to stay here.

E.g. when the German Reich started attacking Jews, their thought wasn't about improving their troubled economy, but to blame the Jews and communists for all the troubles in their economy. In an economic downfall, some leaders switch attention of the masses to an enemy. One should recognize these signs.

The raise of nationalism and racist ideologies is happening in many countries currently. This is an indicator of bad economic conditions and possibly military conflicts in the nearest future.

When we've been moving to Sabah 3 years ago, we've been aware of racial tensions here but we've been hoping that we can get at least 10 peaceful years here... We will carefully monitor the situation here and in the world and will stay here until they boot us out.
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Old Sep 5th 2021, 5:49 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Interesting discussions going on as usual. I think its an evolving situation, looks like powers that be didn't expect such a strong reaction to new MM2H requirements. especially from some of the local constituents whose opinion they have to cater to some degree.

I think it is too early to predict conclusively what changes/reversals will be made. The latest salvo from the ministry about existing MM2Hers not living here, may result in "90 days stay requirement" staying and rest of the items getting grandfathers etc.

Regarding people with MM2H but not residing in MY, there are of course a number of factors (Most of them discussed quite aptly by RA above) .. I want to share my own case..

I had plans to retire to MY, and they included buying a condo or small residence, making MY my base in SEA and spend partial year (3-6 months a year).. I got my MM2H about 4 years ago. However some personal situation intervened, so instead of retiring, i decided to continue in my job for a couple more years to make up for some losses etc. and set the date to make the move in early 2020.

Unfortunately, by early 2020, Covid had stuck and ensuing MCOs etc etc.

In post Covid world, we all have different realizations, perspectives and priorities. I am now seriously concerned about putting all eggs in one basket etc. and little more concerned about socio-political fault lines in MY society than I was.

The more likely outcome of 'reviews galore" may be a requirement to stay minimum period annually, some form of minimum investment as condition for renewal etc. these concessions may serve to cool the anxieties of many of the existing MM2Hers .. or at least I hope they do .. lets wait and watch ..
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Old Sep 5th 2021, 7:36 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Originally Posted by Thairetired2016 View Post
Would love to hear which country treats foreigners/retirees "the best". Not in EU.
Among English or some English speaking countries, we didn't find anything good for us so far.

We are also considering global warming issue. You don't want to live in the equatorial countries because of the heat which will be approaching critical level soon, or places with high risk of flooding, hurricanes, wild fires, right?
In a high altitude desert climate, there is shortage of water, but you can store a lot of rain water in the underground tanks or collect condensation water.
Where are these good and safe places?

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Old Sep 6th 2021, 1:03 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Speaking as a couple who have MM2H but don't live in Malaysia: We retired from Europe to become nomadic - Travelling around Asia and Australasia. We chose MM2H for the very reason that it was NOT necessary to reside there. We use it as a base - Bank accounts, PO Box, plus it's a great stepping stone to the rest of Asia. It was great whilst it lasted and if the rules change and current MM2Hers are "grandfathered" over, we'd probably consider staying in the programme and spending 3 months a year in Malaysia (not such a tough proposition😀) until we're ready to find a place to settle down (Bali and Sri Lanka are on the radar). Here's hoping that it works out alright for everyone!🤞
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Old Sep 6th 2021, 4:36 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Are there English-speaking high altitude desert places? Oh...there are in the USA (Utah, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico). But deserts don't get a lot of rain (hence they are deserts). And when there is rain you get a lot and then areas that have a little water get hit with flash floods. And all these areas are subject to wildfires. Some of the Caribbean nations are English speaking...plus Belize but all in the hurricane zones, which will likely get worse. There are enclaves of English speakers in some countries like Spain, the Balaeric Islands, Portugal, Equador, Costa Rica, Panama, Philippines simply because of the tourist/expat density and English is the lingua franca. Spanish or Portugese helps though.I have heard that the Latin American countries also began to reduce their pensianado benefits and increase the requirements, though. Maybe they'll reconsider if they see that their economies need a stimulus from tourism. The revisions were done quietly and over time rather than in the ham-fisted manner that Malaysia has undertaken. Seems they were trying to find the "price point" for best yield to their economy, but Covid has now changed all the rules. I suspect they'll start considering moving back the other way. Of course there is crime, both petty and larger scale, issues with immigration, etc. And also volcanos, earthquakes, and hurricanes in C.America and typhoons in the Philippines.

With Climate Change we don't really know if climatic zones will change. Alaskan summers can be miserable as it is...so who knows what it'll be like where all the permafrost melts creating breeding grounds for giant mosquitos. There are actually "PRO" Climate Change people now who think that the Yukon will be like Ohio or Georgia or something. Their attitude is "Just move from drowned Florida to Juneau...you'll hardly notice the difference.

Last edited by RedApe; Sep 6th 2021 at 4:43 am.
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Old Sep 6th 2021, 8:32 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Originally Posted by RedApe View Post
Are there English-speaking high altitude desert places?
...there are in the USA (Utah, Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico). But deserts don't get a lot of rain (hence they are deserts).
...Some of the Caribbean nations are English speaking...plus Belize but all in the hurricane zones, which will likely get worse.
...There are enclaves of English speakers in some countries like Spain, the Balaeric Islands, Portugal, Equador, Costa Rica, Panama, Philippines
...Of course there is crime,...
...And also volcanos, earthquakes, and hurricanes in C.America and typhoons in the Philippines.
...Alaskan summers can be miserable as it is...so who knows what it'll be like where all the permafrost melts ...
The reason why I was thinking that high altitude desert would provide relatively tolerable conditions during global warming is that there is not much vegetation and no peat moss there to cause lengthy wild fires. But the water can be conserved during the rains.
Yes, all places you listed above have major flaws unfortunately.
I was hoping that there are places other than the US...

Here is the list of all the deserts by countries in the world:
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/...e-deserts.html
There are no attractive options other than in the US...

Last edited by StillSearching; Sep 6th 2021 at 10:14 am.
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Old Sep 7th 2021, 3:42 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Ongoing media coverage of MM2H..

- Let MM2H dependants continue with their existing visa: https://www.thestar.com.my/opinion/l...-existing-visa
- Changes to MM2H unlikely to have significant impact on property market : https://www.thestar.com.my/business/...roperty-market
- Drastic changes to Malaysia' MM2H... : https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...tial-investors
- Hanna Yoe warns of mass exodus : https://www.malaymail.com/news/malay...-calls/2002709

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Old Sep 7th 2021, 5:40 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

"the old MM2H criteria does seem to be 'too friendly'", said RHB.
The brokerage added that without raising the requirements for the MM2H programme, it would be unjustifiable for "normal quality" foreigners to also enjoy the subsidies the government is offering, such as petrol, sugar and gas."

1) "too friendly"? But why there are less than 60K MM2Hers, not millions?
2) subsidized petrol, gas, and sugar... They really put this as justification for increased requirements?
Besides, subsidizing these three causes huge damage to the environment and public health.
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Old Sep 7th 2021, 5:55 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

The government could drive away much needed foreign investment and the expatriate community that has made Malaysia home with its new rules for the Malaysia My Second Home (MM2H) programme, DAP’s Hannah Yeoh predicted today.
I wonder if foreigners prefer to live in places with sizable expat community or not?
Good luck to Malaysia to attract many foreigners after mass exodus of MM2Hers?
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Old Sep 7th 2021, 9:48 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Originally Posted by StillSearching View Post
1) "too friendly"? But why there are less than 60K MM2Hers, not millions?
2) subsidized petrol, gas, and sugar... They really put this as justification for increased requirements?
Besides, subsidizing these three causes huge damage to the environment and public health.
Maybe they should start adding these subsidy taxes on all tourists when they buy a sugary drink, or on restaurants for each meal they serve a tourist. "Are you going to have topi o or kopi c....the price is different for tourists...2 sen". Maybe every petrol station will be required to have a separate dock for "expats".

Is RHB associated with RHB Bank? I'm pulling my accounts in protest - no wait- because they have consultants that are simply idiots that should not be around my money.

I maybe use one 14kg LPG tank every two years. I usually eat out, admittedly. But the subsidy on a 14kg gas tank is RM27.79 for a retail price of RM54.39. I can't think most MM2H's are getting more than one tank a year. Hi Octane RON97 is unsubsidized...lower octane RON95 is. Market price RM2.63/liter (US$0.85)...vs. subsidized RM1.90 (US$0.61)... Subsidy is RM0.73 (US24 cents) a liter.

According to this the Sugar Subsidy was abolished in 2013.https://says.com/my/news/government-...y-announcement


Last edited by RedApe; Sep 7th 2021 at 10:06 am.
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Old Sep 7th 2021, 1:37 pm
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Originally Posted by RedApe View Post
Maybe they should start adding these subsidy taxes on all tourists when they buy a sugary drink, or on restaurants for each meal they serve a tourist. "Are you going to have topi o or kopi c....the price is different for tourists...2 sen". Maybe every petrol station will be required to have a separate dock for "expats".

Is RHB associated with RHB Bank? I'm pulling my accounts in protest - no wait- because they have consultants that are simply idiots that should not be around my money.

I maybe use one 14kg LPG tank every two years. I usually eat out, admittedly. But the subsidy on a 14kg gas tank is RM27.79 for a retail price of RM54.39. I can't think most MM2H's are getting more than one tank a year. Hi Octane RON97 is unsubsidized...lower octane RON95 is. Market price RM2.63/liter (US$0.85)...vs. subsidized RM1.90 (US$0.61)... Subsidy is RM0.73 (US24 cents) a liter.

According to this the Sugar Subsidy was abolished in 2013.https://says.com/my/news/government-...y-announcement
I actually discussed a little bit with a person who claims to be a business visa consultant and was consulted on the new rules on the Malaysia subreddit. His argument was that failed business visa applicants apply for MM2H and so they wanted to stop that and that the new rules should favor genuine retirees. Many people countered his arguments which sound bonkers. I also did but stopped soon after he started claiming that the Indonesian retirement visa was not a retirement visa but a long stay visa (yeah, so that is why it was confined to over 55s) and insisting that international school fees was a reasonable basis to use for expenses as a retiree (so 70 year olds apparently generally have school age going children by that logic). I wonder if he genuinely believed what he was saying but I can't think of why else he would actually engage in the discussion in the first place. His persistence at sticking to his guns despite many pointing out the flaws in his reasoning and facts and downvoting him was quite remarkable too. But the revised requirements might make sense when viewed in terms of this kind of bizzare and illogical advice if that is all that they saw. The home ministry might in fact be so out of touch with reality that they think that demanding twice the income requirement and 1.5 times the asset requirements of the UAE retirement visa (and it is an or with the UAE retirement visa, not and - further there is no FD requirement for the UAE retirement visa) is perfectly reasonable. I wouldn't have thought it possible but looking at the way that consultant was thinking it might actually be true. It would seem like they actually think a lot of MM2H holders are failed business visa applicants who send their children to international schools and are running local businesses here. A part of me thinks that this irrationality comes as a cover for underlying xenophobia but another part of me is now thinking that these people have really no idea of the reality after that discussion.
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Old Sep 7th 2021, 3:04 pm
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

I've also heard a couple of "Citizenship by Investment Advisors" who also think this is a great thing. I'm not sure where they are coming from as their arguments seem very strained and contradictory. On the one hand they'll argue..."the numbers of applicants and amounts are minimal...just a few billion ringgits over the next decade"...but when you point out that by that logic the program should be expanded by making the procedures and benefits more attractive, not less, they start up on this illusory "costs to the economy" bulldada. But they always gravitate back to their "Citizenship by Investment" plans and how Malaysia need to attract the tax-dodgers and citizenship renouncers. If these were the folks that were advising the government then its clear they were in it for their own interests and just trying to clear away their rival program. I think these people are just short of being charlatans and snake-oil salesmen.

Now if the government wants to deny failed business applicants from applying under the MM2H it seems that they could easily review those applications. Aren't the applications at immigration? Don't the applicants lay out the businesses they want to start? Can't the authorities tell them that they are not allowed to work on the visa without government permission? And then review those SPECIFIC applicants if they are working or running a business in their specific area? Then revoke the visa if the people are violating the rules? After a few dozen enforcement actions I suspect they'd have no further violations. And the government would likely benefit from such an enforcement in fines and selling off the business. And remember...the government lured people to MM2H by CLAIMING that people could work part-time on it,. It was the gov't that renigged on their promise there, too. The tookj that right away...,without nary a notice, and without changing the published rules.

But I keep a pretty close tab on MM2H recipients violating the law. You don't hear about it. The cases are probably in the handful. In many cases, the causes an immigration cockup...not transferring an application from MM2H to a Spousal Visa, etc.
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Old Sep 7th 2021, 5:20 pm
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Originally Posted by RedApe View Post
I've also heard a couple of "Citizenship by Investment Advisors" who also think this is a great thing. I'm not sure where they are coming from as their arguments seem very strained and contradictory. On the one hand they'll argue..."the numbers of applicants and amounts are minimal...just a few billion ringgits over the next decade"...but when you point out that by that logic the program should be expanded by making the procedures and benefits more attractive, not less, they start up on this illusory "costs to the economy" bulldada. But they always gravitate back to their "Citizenship by Investment" plans and how Malaysia need to attract the tax-dodgers and citizenship renouncers. If these were the folks that were advising the government then its clear they were in it for their own interests and just trying to clear away their rival program. I think these people are just short of being charlatans and snake-oil salesmen.

Now if the government wants to deny failed business applicants from applying under the MM2H it seems that they could easily review those applications. Aren't the applications at immigration? Don't the applicants lay out the businesses they want to start? Can't the authorities tell them that they are not allowed to work on the visa without government permission? And then review those SPECIFIC applicants if they are working or running a business in their specific area? Then revoke the visa if the people are violating the rules? After a few dozen enforcement actions I suspect they'd have no further violations. And the government would likely benefit from such an enforcement in fines and selling off the business. And remember...the government lured people to MM2H by CLAIMING that people could work part-time on it,. It was the gov't that renigged on their promise there, too. The tookj that right away...,without nary a notice, and without changing the published rules.

But I keep a pretty close tab on MM2H recipients violating the law. You don't hear about it. The cases are probably in the handful. In many cases, the causes an immigration cockup...not transferring an application from MM2H to a Spousal Visa, etc.
Yeah, there seem to be very few cases of MM2Hers violating the law. The only one case I remember seeing was an ethnic Chinese with a St. Kitts and Nevis passport (almost definitely bought - I don't think there are too many ethnic chinese there and St. Kitts and Nevis has a popular citizenship program) who had got a fake MyKad. He was let off pretty lightly - just RM 10k fine which would have been minor to him given that the St. Kitts and Nevis passport is not particularly cheap. But I have definitely not heard of any violent or serious crimes.
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Old Sep 8th 2021, 4:53 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Originally Posted by physdude View Post
...It would seem like they actually think a lot of MM2H holders are failed business visa applicants who send their children to international schools and are running local businesses here.
This is not about "failed business visa", but mostly this is about MM2H visa is less costly than a business visa.
Here is how one guy on MM2H does it:
1) He is allowed by the government to pay himself from his store business in dividends, not salary.
2) He hired a Filipino worker and he extends a working visa for this worker.
It is possible that this Filipino worker is giving part of her salary to the owner. I guess you can make this agreement easily with a Filipino worker who is grateful to have a job.
Yes, his children go to a private school.

Perhaps if the government make business visa and MM2H visa at the same cost, this loophole can be eliminated.
But instead of raising requirements for the retirees, there is another way- lower the cost of business visas.
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Old Sep 8th 2021, 10:47 am
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Default Re: Peninsular MM2H reactivated from October, new conditions

Off-topic, but possibly indicative of the way the country is going:
No to Bill on control and restrictions on development of non-Muslim religions, says MCCBCHST
THE Malaysian Consultative Council of Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Sikhism and Taoism (MCCBCHST) welcomes the statement by the Law Minister on Sept 7 that there were no proposals to enact law to restrict or control the development of the non-Muslim religions and neither was the matter brought to the cabinet yet.Thus this statement clearly contradicts with the earlier statement made by the Deputy Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department (religious affairs), Ahmad Marzuk Shaary who had stated that the government was drafting four new syariah laws “including the control and Restriction on the Propagation of “non-Muslim Religions Bill.”

This Deputy Minister’s statement had caused great anxiety amongst the non-Muslims and thus the clarification by the Minister helps to calm things down.

Since the Deputy Minister has not withdrawn his statement, the MCCBCHST wishes to point out that there are many flaws in his statement and wishes to remind that Article 11 (1) of the Federal Constitution clarity gives the right to every person: “to profess and practise his religion and, subject to clause (4), to propagate it”. This means every person has the fundamental right to practise and propagate his religion, subject to clause (4).

What does than clause (4) of Article 11 provide. It only deals with a very narrow area and provides that federal law may control or restrict propagation of other religious doctrines to Muslims, that is:

“...federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.” Thus, where there is no propagation of other religions doctrine or belief to Muslims, clause (4) will not apply. Where there is practise and propagation of non-Muslim religions amongst themselves only, clause (4) will have no application again.

In fact, the right of freedom of religion is so fundamental that it cannot be curtailed even during an Emergency. This is provided for Article 150 (6A).

The MCCMCHST therefore wishes to remind the Deputy Minister that the basic structure of the Constitution will not allow for a theocratic Islamic state for Malaysia. In our case, all religions are subject to the Constitution.

In view of the apparent contradictions between the statement by the Law Minister and the earlier statement by the Deputy minister, the MCCBCHST calls upon Prime Minister Datuk Seri Ismail Sabri Yaakob to clarify the issue before causing further anxiety among our citizens.
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