British Expats

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-   -   Back in the Day (https://britishexpats.com/forum/rest-world-62/back-day-941543/)

Gordon Barlow May 12th 2022 10:33 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
And just in case I'd forgotten any of the details of my wedding, I looked on Google Maps for the church and the reception-place - and neither was anywhere close to where I'd remembered them. How embarrassing. I had to go onto BE's Canadian "Maple Leaf" site and ask for help. Which was given without any problem, but I still feel bad about it. How could I forget? I can't blame it on old age, because I've always been wrong about the places. Sheesh!

Gordon Barlow May 15th 2022 9:53 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
Canada was only ever a way-station for Linda & me. We had each aimed to go around the globe from Australia via England and North America, then settle down in our respective jobs and cities, After our meeting in Greece, and our Middle East adventure, we parted in London. She joined her sister in Canada and took odd jobs to finance her fare home. I drove my Mum around England, then hit the US consulate for permission to immigrate.

The girl at the counter said to take a ticket and wait to be called. The room was crowded, and my heart sank when they called number 24; mine was 103. A cunning plan was called for. Why not whip around to the Canadian consulate and get one of its tickets? Then I'd have two options? And if I got to Canada I could always sneak over the border to the US some day. As it happened, Canada's waiting room was empty, I was interviewed then and there, and Linda met me off the plane. After an inordinate amount of argy-bargy and dodgy-wodgy, we married there 15 months later. Story as per above. My impatience in London changed our whole lives. We never did make it home to Oz, except for holidays.

Also, I never did sneak over the border to the US. (Well, I did once, but that was in the company of some Canadian friends, so that doesn't really count.)

Gordon Barlow May 23rd 2022 10:07 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
Four months after we were married in Toronto, we drove down to Florida in a "drive-away" car - if that's the name of the service. People who wanted to fly down to their vacation homes and wanted their own car to use while there, but didn't want to drive it down themselves. In those days it was quite a common thing - and maybe it still is - for specialist companies to pay other people to drive the car to the destination, and that's what we did. I can't recall how much we were paid - not much, I think - but we had a time-budget of five days to drive a car down to Orlando, accommodation and petrol paid. So we did that, and rented a car from an agency to get us to Miami.

We were headed for Jamaica, but decided to go to Nassau for a couple of weeks and see what we could find there. We got jobs halfway through the second week, and never did get to Kingston except for a visit one Easter (and a couple of tennis-club trips from Cayman many years later). There are a few English expats in Cayman today who used to work in JA. They liked the place well enough, except for the payment in fast-depreciating local currency! I had visited both Nassau and JA the year before, so I knew roughly what to expect. Linda trusted my judgment, when I chose Nassau over Kingston, and we had a blissfully happy three and a half years there. A wonderful life, back in the day...

Gordon Barlow May 29th 2022 7:52 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
As someone pointed out a couple of months ago, this thread has become my autobiography! It was never meant to be that. Its purpose was to report "back in the day" stories of BE members' experiences relating to parts of the world that weren't covered by all the other forums. Linda & I lived in Bahamas and New Hebrides for 3 1/2 years each - both of which places are in "the rest of the world". Bahamas is not in The Caribbean, by the way; it is in the West Indies, which is not the same thing at all. As Michael Caine would say, not a lot of people know that. It was the original West Indies. Columbus thought he had reached the outlying islands of India itself, and his earliest reports were addressed from "the Indies". Out of ignorance, all the native peoples of the New World therefore came to be called Indians, and still are. It became the generic name for all recently discovered dark-skinned peoples. Some reports of the early European visitors to Australia referred to the native "Indians" there. Not a lot of people know that either, Michael.

Back to my theme... this thread's purpose was to carry reports that weren't appropriate for any other forums. I surely can't be the only BE member with memories of bits of The Rest Of The World. The thread has attracted 4000 visits in its six months of existence, which indicates an interest in "exotic" parts. There are plenty of islands in the Pacific and Atlantic islands - and even the Indian Ocean, and plenty of people have visited them. One of my grandfather's brothers died of malaria in Madagascar in the late 1800s; I confirmed that fact with the British Vice-Consul there back in the 1970s, by airmail. Regrettably, I've never made it to Madagascar; Linda & I stayed two nights in Mauritius on our way to South Africa; that's as close as we got.

Other reminiscences welcome!

uk_grenada May 30th 2022 12:46 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
Planes! Marvellous things that over the years have got - worse!

As a child i led a priviledged existance. My parents spent some years working for CENTO [think NATO trying to buddy up to the oil rich arabs] in Tehran. During this time i either went to school there or in the UK, and flew at least 6 times a year, first class courtesy of HMG to the middle east. My first flight was on a Comet, my last on a VC10, with 707's and other exotica in between.

I was either on 'lollipop specials' full of diplomats kids flying to see their parents from boarding school, or flew as an UM [thats an unaccompanied minor.]. UMs have to be escorted everywhere, in those days by those godesses - the stewardess, and i was usually the only UM in first class, often the only child. You are treated like royalty, i have still got a huge collection of 'junior pilot' badges from various airlines, and have visited the cockpit of just about everything of the day. In the early days a comet had to refuel on the way to Iran, Cairo was popular for that and one could take a short excursion to the museum, accompanied by your stewardess of course, and after takeoff, once round the pyramids was common if requested.

However the stand out things -

0, All food in those days was wonderful, what happened people!
0, To a child a first class seat might as well be a big bed, complete with fluffy toys and a stewardess to tuck you in
1, Only Pan Am had real coca cola, and proper hamburgers, in unlimited quantities!
2, BOACs carvery was wonderful
3, Pan Am 707's usually had a meeting room between first class and the cockpit, with maybe 12 seats and a big round table.
4, VC10's are almost hirsute, they have more power and a faster takeoff than anything, they were designed to fly from unmade runways and are 100% self sufficient on the ground.
5, Stewardesses in those days were clearly selected for beauty

Gordon Barlow Jun 2nd 2022 3:11 am

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by uk_grenada (Post 13118681)
My parents spent some years working for CENTO [think NATO trying to buddy up to the oil rich arabs] in Tehran.

I've always remembered it as CENTCOM - and I may well be the only BE member who has even heard of it, under either name! In 1964 Linda and I bumped into a couple of CENTCOM soldiers in Tabriz, and we went back to their camp for a meal in their cafeteria. We were a month into our Middle East adventure, and had hitched a ride with a bunch of Iranians on their way home from Germany in four Mercedes they intended to sell in Tehran. I've told the story in my other thread (I think), of how I was recruited to drive one of the cars for a day, safely in the middle of the convoy of course...

At the time, Iran was still ruled by the US's puppet Shah; the popular rebellion against him was 15 years away. Our hosts were middle-class and fully Westernised, but hated the Shah's cruel regime. (They would have hated his successors just as much - although at least the nation is independent now.)

uk_grenada Jun 2nd 2022 1:18 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
"The Baghdad Pact (1955) and the Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) The Baghdad Pact was a defensive organization for promoting shared political, military and economic goals founded in 1955 by Turkey, Iraq, Great Britain, Pakistan and Iran."

The US was also heavily into it. Interestingly B52 bombers were routinely serviced in the US base in Tehran, not sure why logistically. There was also the most ridiculous iranian airforce. Reza Pahlavi's son was a pilot in his spare time, so naturally he had an F1-11, there is a famous photo of 4 such planes sitting on one of the salt flats is the south of the country, and a large party and BBQ going on. Beats having a ferrari i guess. He also had a mercedes grosser. The ultimate dictator car - also owned by
Leonid Brezhnev, Nicolae Ceauşescu, Idi Amin Dada, Enver Hoxha, Saddam Hussein, Papa Doc Duvalier, Chairman Mao, Marshal Josip Broz Tito, Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, and Ferdinand Marcos.

As Jeremy Clarkson commented - never cut one up on the road, firstly closing the window can cut your arm off, and secondly most owners also have an air force.

Gordon Barlow Jun 5th 2022 5:31 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
Grenada... Of course you're quite right. I'd never heard of CENTO, just the COM military side of it. What a childhood you had, man! Tell us a bit more about it. Did your mother stay in England while you went to school there? Or were you privately educated in Iran? Did you learn to speak Farsi at all? Or Arabic? All good interesting stuff!

As I've said (somewhere) I spent only ten days in Iran, hitching and bussing from the Turkish border west of Tabriz down to Shiraz and across to Abadan - in the company of a girl I'd met in Greece. Our exposure to Iranian culture was limited to the slums we stayed in - except for the little group that gave us a lift in their Mercedeses from Turkey to Tehran, and put us up for the night when we arrived. They were middle-class university students in Germany, and one or two of them must have spoken English. Oh, and one other big favour they did us... The young woman among them strongly advised us to masquerade as a married couple, where we were going. So in the Tabriz market we bought a small gold-colour ring for about five shillings, and Linda wore that for the rest of our journey, across to Egypt and then up behind the Iron Curtain and back to England. Until now, I've never given that ring a thought. I wonder what she did with it. Chucked it away, probably, when she gave up on me. When we married, a couple of years later, she got a proper one, with a diamond in it. Cost a lot more than five shillings, that time!

Years after our big adventure, I learned that a 2nd-cousin of mine had been the British Vice-Consul in Kerman in 1942-44. If I'd known that during my travels I would certainly have gone there just to suss the place out.

morpeth Jun 6th 2022 6:42 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13119403)
I've always remembered it as CENTCOM - and I may well be the only BE member who has even heard of it, under either name! In 1964 Linda and I bumped into a couple of CENTCOM soldiers in Tabriz, and we went back to their camp for a meal in their cafeteria. We were a month into our Middle East adventure, and had hitched a ride with a bunch of Iranians on their way home from Germany in four Mercedes they intended to sell in Tehran. I've told the story in my other thread (I think), of how I was recruited to drive one of the cars for a day, safely in the middle of the convoy of course...

At the time, Iran was still ruled by the US's puppet Shah; the popular rebellion against him was 15 years away. Our hosts were middle-class and fully Westernised, but hated the Shah's cruel regime. (They would have hated his successors just as much - although at least the nation is independent now.)

Actually there were widespread riots about the Shah's White Revolution in 1864 ultimately leading to Khomeini;s exile.

uk_grenada Jun 6th 2022 7:24 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
I actually dispute that

they were religiously originated, nothing popular about it. Were you there?

morpeth Jun 6th 2022 8:50 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 13120352)
Actually there were widespread riots about the Shah's White Revolution in 1864 ultimately leading to Khomeini;s exile.

oops I meant 1963.

morpeth Jun 6th 2022 9:14 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by uk_grenada (Post 13120357)
I actually dispute that

they were religiously originated, nothing popular about it. Were you there?

Well I am unsure why if something religiously originated that means by definition it wasn't popular, and many landowners, and members of the former Qajar land-owning class also objected to the reforms.Some simply were opposed to more ;westernization'.

Perhaps widespread implies the size of the protests, however they were not inconsequential, and were widespread as the occupied to the east in Baluchistan, to the northwest around Tabriz.

No I wasn't there at the time- I base those comments both on what I have read, but also numerous conversations with both Iranians and foreigners who were there at the time, including several in the military. The opposition to the White Revolution some have credited as a turning point in Khomeini's career.“On 5 June 1963, the famous three-day-long bloody riots started in Iran. Khomeini was arrested for eight months, but on his release, he continued his criticism of the policies of the government. He was again arrested in 1964 and sent into exile, where he remained for 14 years until the revolution of 1979.

The Story of the White Revolution 1963 in Iran | by usmi | History of Yesterday

“While I hate to use Wikipedia , it states “Two days later, on June 5, Khomeini was arrested. This sparked three days of rioting and left several hundred dead. The riots were remembered in speeches and writings as the time when the army "slaughtered no less than 15,000" according to Khomeini.”

So I am not really sure what there is to dispute except perhaps 'widespread' is taken to mean to a greater extent than the numbers involved.





Gordon Barlow Jun 16th 2022 4:26 am

Re: Back in the Day
 
Which part of the world has the worst music? For Western ears, at least. What is discordant crap to Western ears is of course bliss to the natives! I will offer my three candidates, and other BE members can offer theirs.

Linda and I agreed that the finalists must include Bali. Yes, yes, Bali is just one island of Indonesia, I know. But its culture is different from all the other Islands. (As is its religion - singularly, an island of Buddhists in an empire of Islam.) We were tourists there in 1974, and paid for a concert of the local music. Our other candidates, dating from nine years earlier, were Egypt (a generous doctor included us in his family's box at a public concert that included a crowd-favourite belly-dancer and lots of local music) and Turkey (an amateur night at an Army barracks).

"Excruciating" is the only word that fits for all three - in my ignorant opinion, of course. Any other offers?

uk_grenada Jun 16th 2022 10:30 am

Re: Back in the Day
 
Japanese classical music. I think it may be the same root as bali, dischordant, without rhythm.

I was there temporarily working, and was taken to various incredibly expensive [they paid] and rare expressions of their culture. A weekend in a trad inn [3000 pounds] an afternoon in a geisha house [not as racy as it sounds] and lots of interesting usually food. My hosts were extremely gracious / generous and i couldnt do less than be courteous, but the music was a trial.

Geisha are interesting, they are quite happy to explain the racy history and the sexual stuff that went on / still goes on. Read about the rice cake....

morpeth Jun 17th 2022 6:50 am

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13122224)
Which part of the world has the worst music? For Western ears, at least. What is discordant crap to Western ears is of course bliss to the natives! I will offer my three candidates, and other BE members can offer theirs.

Linda and I agreed that the finalists must include Bali. Yes, yes, Bali is just one island of Indonesia, I know. But its culture is different from all the other Islands. (As is its religion - singularly, an island of Buddhists in an empire of Islam.) We were tourists there in 1974, and paid for a concert of the local music. Our other candidates, dating from nine years earlier, were Egypt (a generous doctor included us in his family's box at a public concert that included a crowd-favourite belly-dancer and lots of local music) and Turkey (an amateur night at an Army barracks).

"Excruciating" is the only word that fits for all three - in my ignorant opinion, of course. Any other offers?

Hi Gordon, I visited Bali several times in the sae time period, the Gamelan music I assume you are referring in the right circumstances I quite like as clothing

Bali was quite different then , not so overrun with tourists and so affrodable..

Gordon Barlow Jun 22nd 2022 1:46 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 13122481)
Bali was quite different then , not so overrun with tourists and so affordable..

Gosh, wasn't it just! It seems to have become quite a dangerous place, judging by news reports. And overrun by tourists. Of course, back in the day, there weren't many of us foreigners clogging up the beaches and towns. I hear stories of junkies' needles scattered around on Kuta Beach, which is sad. We were there in '74; when did you go? And were you by yourself?

Gordon Barlow Jun 22nd 2022 5:22 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...work-home.html
And wow! Just look at the news just in, reported in the DM. It makes all the sense in the world for the Bali government (or is it the Indonesian government?) to open the door to "digital nomads". We have had this in Cayman for a few years now, and it's a truly excellent idea.

morpeth Jun 24th 2022 4:53 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13123595)
Gosh, wasn't it just! It seems to have become quite a dangerous place, judging by news reports. And overrun by tourists. Of course, back in the day, there weren't many of us foreigners clogging up the beaches and towns. I hear stories of junkies' needles scattered around on Kuta Beach, which is sad. We were there in '74; when did you go? And were you by yourself?

I went with my girlfriend in 1974 and 1975, I was in high school in Jakarta at the time.Probably better now in north of island I have heard similar stories. We went by train the first time stopping along the way, but at the time I spoke fluent Indonesian and some Javanese, so it made trip easier.

Gordon Barlow Jun 30th 2022 10:42 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 13124289)
I went with my girlfriend in 1974 and 1975, I was in high school in Jakarta at the time.Probably better now in north of island I have heard similar stories. We went by train the first time stopping along the way, but at the time I spoke fluent Indonesian and some Javanese, so it made trip easier.

Morpeth - you can't leave us hanging, man! What were you doing in school in Jakarta? Were one or both of your parents Indonesians? And what kind of language is Javanese? I've never heard of it before.

I've reported here that Linda and I spent a month in Indonesia, when we lived in the New Hebrides. At the end of that month, we stayed in the Jakarta Youth Hostel for a night - in a very crappy part of the city - and then stayed with an Australian banker and his wife whom we had known in the New Hebs. That was a bit more comfortable!

morpeth Jun 30th 2022 11:49 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13126109)
Morpeth - you can't leave us hanging, man! What were you doing in school in Jakarta? Were one or both of your parents Indonesians? And what kind of language is Javanese? I've never heard of it before.

I've reported here that Linda and I spent a month in Indonesia, when we lived in the New Hebrides. At the end of that month, we stayed in the Jakarta Youth Hostel for a night - in a very crappy part of the city - and then stayed with an Australian banker and his wife whom we had known in the New Hebs. That was a bit more comfortable!

No my parents were not Indonesian, just my father was working there and so I went to school there. Jakarta was a great place to be a teenager at that time. It wasn't the over-built traffic nightmare it is today- nor sinking. You may know that the government is planning to move much of government agencies to a far off island as part of Jakarta literally sinking.

Most Indonesians used to specific regional language of dialect at home, and Indonesian outside the home or in formal circumstances. Similar to Italians before say 1970, would speak regional dialect/language at home, Italian in school or work.Javanese is the language of Java, and associated in literature/arts with the old classical Javanese of the royal court. In Karata there is an often hilarious dialect called Betawi ( i.e. from the old Dutch name for Jakarta, Batavia) which incorporates a lot of Hokkien Chinese words. If you are not too sensitive politically correct, there is a youtube series called How to Act Indonesian which might make you laugh.

Indonesian/Indonesian-Chinese food I think is great, and outside of Jakarta in the villages one can find a very tranquil life in most respects. The poverty isn't as crushing as it can be all too often in India, and certainly country has more on the ball then the Philippines.

In the 1970s country was just emerging from the Sukarno era where much stagnated in Indonesia after the Dutch were kicked out. For $20 or $25 one could have dinner, visit the three basic discos in the city, driven around by Pedicab or chauffer, see all from movie stars to gang leaders, to general's sons to foreigners all in same places, and on way home a late night snack of street food.

Language easy, less than 10,000 words and no grammar.

In the villages they have Shadow Plays with gamelan music, and last overnight, telling stories from the great Hindu epics, and the whole village gathers together to watch. quiet an experience.

I used to bring latest music from London or bought in Singapore and sell to DJ;s so I have all the pocket money I could even spend.

Johnboyuk Jul 1st 2022 10:02 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13083686)

Zorba the Greek” influenced my life in another way, too. We might not have been in the New Hebrides at all, except for the lure of Crete, where the movie had been filmed. Somebody on our travels had told us about the caves of Crete, which had become a hippy hangout. We were never hippies, but we were low-budget travellers, and living in caves on a Greek island with eccentrics like Zorba became part of the dream. In 1970, after three years in Nassau, Bahamas - underworked and overpaid - we decided we were rich enough to retire there. On the way, in Perth, Australia, Linda took a course on teaching English as a second language, and I taught myself how to make a fortune playing the stock market. What could go wrong? Well... At the same time as I was wondering what had gone wrong, a trust company in the New Hebrides was advertising for professional staff. I went there and did my thing, while Linda showed tourists around the island and met visitors off the planes.

We never did make it to the caves of Crete, and nor did Bruce and Pam. Somebody told me the hippies are still there, and good for them. In idle moments, I wonder if any of them ever got stoned for sexual misbehaviour like the widow in the movie. Linda and I got stoned in Egypt, once, not in the nice way; but that’s another story.

For some background information, the caves in Crete where the hippies lived were in Matala, on the south coast of Crete. Celebrities such as Joni Mitchell lived there for a while making the caves famous. The caves were also used for ammunition storage by the Germans during WW2. Today, the area has become very touristy and the hippies have moved on. Probably to suburban UK mostly.

Matala - Google Maps

Except for the coastal scenes, Zorba the Greek was mostly filmed in a small village on the north coast of Crete, east of Chania, called Kokkino Chorio. The village has hardly changed and is mainly a base for tourists these days.

Kokkino Chorio, Crete. Kokkino Chorio (Red Village) in Chania. (villasincrete.net)

Then there is the village of Elounda in the east of Crete made famous by the BBC series 'Who pays the Ferryman' also starring Anthony Quinn.

Gordon Barlow Jul 5th 2022 8:17 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
A happy memory from back in the day... We had just got back from New York, and my friend Ian was just back from a business trip to Singapore. "I saw Ross on the TV in my hotel!", he greeted me in the street here in Cayman. Well, I was glad somebody had seen the show. Ross - then about to turn ten - had won our local Monopoly tournament, and Cayman was one of twenty countries that sent their winners to New York for the World Tournament held every two or three years around the world. (Yes, it's still going!) The 1985 championship was held in New York, with all national champions and their families put up for a week at the Waldorf Astoria - which was and is still the only way I would ever afford to stay at the Waldorf!

The big TV coverage was badly timed, as it transpired. The event coincided with a massive earthquake in Mexico with thousands killed, and that drove other news items off the screen - in New York, if not in Singapore. So Ian got to see it and we had to settle for our personal memories of tense 90-minute contests at five tables in the ballroom, with watchers from 20 nations wandering around the place babbling in tongues. Ross was interviewed by a team from France's TV station; he had a non-speaking part in that, not being a French-speaker. They called him le benjamin, being the youngest competitor by years. He was in the running to be at the final table, overnight, but Jim the 34-year-old US champion predicted the pressure would be too much for the youngster, and so it proved. Never mind. Jim himself missed the cut, too.

We parents remembered the whole thing as a tremendous thrill, but he grumbled to a girl-friend later in life that it wasn't fun being the only child among adults, stuck in a hotel for a week.

Gordon Barlow Jul 24th 2022 4:45 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
Morpeth, if you're still around... I have a question for you. How long would our train journey have taken in 1974, from Jakarta to Bali? (I presume the train didn't go all the way, and there was a ferry-boat for the last bit.) I have a faint memory of having an Indonesian "bath" along the way, which hints at its being a two-day journey. After a week in Bali we took another train back, but on the southern route via Borobudur. We would have stayed overnight in Jogjakarta, I think, to leave plenty of time to explore the site.

On the phone the other week my son told me his friends comment on his family's adventures: parents were Australians who met in Greece, lived in Vanuatu, son born in England and brought up in Cayman, etc. I said, "You can add that you were conceived in Indonesia, when we were on holidays in Java and Bali." His response was "Well, I probably don't need to go into the gruesome details [most children like to believe in some kind of an immaculate conception, don 't they?], but was it in Java or Bali?" I said I couldn't tell, because "we were at it every night, pretty much, in those days". So if there is a chance that the un-immaculate conception happened in the bathroom of a train, I would dearly love to give him something else to be embarrassed about.

morpeth Jul 24th 2022 6:56 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13130731)
Morpeth, if you're still around... I have a question for you. How long would our train journey have taken in 1974, from Jakarta to Bali? (I presume the train didn't go all the way, and there was a ferry-boat for the last bit.) I have a faint memory of having an Indonesian "bath" along the way, which hints at its being a two-day journey. After a week in Bali we took another train back, but on the southern route via Borobudur. We would have stayed overnight in Jogjakarta, I think, to leave plenty of time to explore the site.

On the phone the other week my son told me his friends comment on his family's adventures: parents were Australians who met in Greece, lived in Vanuatu, son born in England and brought up in Cayman, etc. I said, "You can add that you were conceived in Indonesia, when we were on holidays in Java and Bali." His response was "Well, I probably don't need to go into the gruesome details [most children like to believe in some kind of an immaculate conception, don 't they?], but was it in Java or Bali?" I said I couldn't tell, because "we were at it every night, pretty much, in those days". So if there is a chance that the un-immaculate conception happened in the bathroom of a train, I would dearly love to give him something else to be embarrassed about.

Yes I think you are right it was a two day trip, and my girlfriend and I stopped at Borobudur as well, having a day as you did.We stayed at a wonderful bungalow in Bali, first time, and second time stayed on northern Bali in large property owned by someone I knew. As at the time I was fluent in Indonesian, we saw some different parts of Bali than many tourists did in the day. The place we stayed at was owned by the owner of a radio station in Jakarta where I was a DJ, in English mostly, on Saturday mornings. I would bring in new music from Singapore or London , that hadn't been poorly copied on cassettes as most music was in Jakarta- I sold to radio stations and the few discos in Jakarta, including the coolest disco/club the world ever, the Tanamur in Jakarta.

Being a teenager in Jakarta was a dream at the time, and it wasn't so built up as it is today.

I doubt I would want to take a two day train trip through Java today.

Gordon Barlow Aug 1st 2022 11:31 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
When we left our homelands to see the world, back in the day - 1963, in my case and Linda's - we had to carry little yellow booklets with proof of immunisation against Yellow Fever, cholera and smallpox. Maybe polio too; I can't recall. The injections made us immune from those diseases forever, it was said.

What a sad, sad world it is now, faced with a modern-day Black Death scare that requires face-masks for babies, a Biblical four cubits' distance between any two humans, and forced injections of blood clots every few months. For life. Dear God! Really??

How lucky we were, back then. To the best of my knowledge I was never exposed to Yellow Fever, cholera or smallpox. (Hmmm. Cholera maybe; I was in Haiti once, for a week; and the slums of the Middle East might have carried some, I expect.) I'd had chicken pox as a kid in Australia, and malaria and hepatitis in my thirties in New Hebrides, but none of those required a hospital stay, or four cubits' distance from anybody.

I can't say for certain, but I do wonder if all the dirt we played in when small, may have given us a natural immunity. Except for Yellow Fever and cholera, maybe. What do you reckon?

uk_grenada Aug 2nd 2022 12:18 am

Re: Back in the Day
 
I believe that you are somewhat naive and rather easily lead by propaganda.

Do what you choose but I would suggest you listen to people who have spent their lives learning about bugs, not those with a cheap axe to grind.

morpeth Aug 2nd 2022 1:58 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13132281)
When we left our homelands to see the world, back in the day - 1963, in my case and Linda's - we had to carry little yellow booklets with proof of immunisation against Yellow Fever, cholera and smallpox. Maybe polio too; I can't recall. The injections made us immune from those diseases forever, it was said.

What a sad, sad world it is now, faced with a modern-day Black Death scare that requires face-masks for babies, a Biblical four cubits' distance between any two humans, and forced injections of blood clots every few months. For life. Dear God! Really??

How lucky we were, back then. To the best of my knowledge I was never exposed to Yellow Fever, cholera or smallpox. (Hmmm. Cholera maybe; I was in Haiti once, for a week; and the slums of the Middle East might have carried some, I expect.) I'd had chicken pox as a kid in Australia, and malaria and hepatitis in my thirties in New Hebrides, but none of those required a hospital stay, or four cubits' distance from anybody.

I can't say for certain, but I do wonder if all the dirt we played in when small, may have given us a natural immunity. Except for Yellow Fever and cholera, maybe. What do you reckon?

I remember those Yellow Cards- and all the shots one had to take before living some Third World countries. I wondered why in just a few decades peanut allergies became so common - until I read several studies that showed much of the 'spread' of such an allergy came from children not being as exposed to nuts.



Gordon Barlow Aug 2nd 2022 2:01 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
grenada. I think you meant this to go in the "Take It Outside" forum. I certainly hope so.

And a Happy Tuesday to you too!

uk_grenada Aug 2nd 2022 2:37 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13132385)
grenada. I think you meant this to go in the "Take It Outside" forum. I certainly hope so.

And a Happy Tuesday to you too!

I apologise!

I think im a bit thin skinned about vaccination misinformation, its partially my NHS connections, well the whole misinformation thing about protecting ourselves in a relatively innocuous way. I had an anti covid vaxxer uncle, i had...... There was the UK doctor who lied about the childrens MMR vaccination causing autism. He was eventually debunked, and struck off as a doctor but not till a number of children had died through lack of protection. The covid vaccination didnt/doesnt stop you getting it, but it does prevent you from dying pretty effectively and i also know that there is a provable risk of about 1 in a million people who had the astra zeneca variety getting blood clots, the mechanism of which is now understood. I survived typhoid in Tehran i was told partially because i was vaccinated - it just wasnt 100% effective.

Vaccination has saved lord knows how many. New vaccinations occasionally appear, and old ones are no longer needed as the world has eliminated the disease entirely. Smallpox is a case in point. The vaccination i and probably you had, protects us from it, cowpox and monkeypox. But the disease has died out now so babies havent been vaccinated in years, so monkeypox can get them now...

Has anyone told you about pneumovax? In the UK everyone at 55 or 60 is now given it once at the same time as a flu jab. It protects against pneumococcal disease caused by about 30 types of bacteria. This kills quite a lot of older folk in colder climates.

Yes its essentially a free country in most of the 'free' world, one can make an informed decision that you dont want it, one can also decide you dont want to be resuscitated if your heart stops, but one shouldnt then complain or require extra assistance or deny access to that assistance to others because of that decision.

BTW the yellow card - its still alive and well, as an alternative to the electronic covid vaccination certificate one can have an international vaccination card, they are still the standard in Trinidad and available in other countries, for yellow fever covid etc etc.

Does kids being exposed to dirt keep them healthy ? Yes thats also been proved now, the hypoallergenic and bacteria killling sufaces in houses and the level of cleaning means modern kids are polluted more by chemicals and of course emmissions etc but exposed less to bugs that challenge or teach their immune systems when young, so they are weaker later. Practices with babies/young kids vary globally so much its easy for statisticians to spot the later health differences. My sister is a consultant midwife / trainer in a large hospital, things like some countries feeding any/everything to kids from 3 months vs the 'american' model of highly processed sterilised packets/tins up to 1 or even longer is radically worse.

morpeth Aug 2nd 2022 7:29 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by uk_grenada (Post 13132401)
I apologise!

I think im a bit thin skinned about vaccination misinformation, its partially my NHS connections, well the whole misinformation thing about protecting ourselves in a relatively innocuous way. I had an anti covid vaxxer uncle, i had...... There was the UK doctor who lied about the childrens MMR vaccination causing autism. He was eventually debunked, and struck off as a doctor but not till a number of children had died through lack of protection. The covid vaccination didnt/doesnt stop you getting it, but it does prevent you from dying pretty effectively and i also know that there is a provable risk of about 1 in a million people who had the astra zeneca variety getting blood clots, the mechanism of which is now understood. I survived typhoid in Tehran i was told partially because i was vaccinated - it just wasnt 100% effective.

Vaccination has saved lord knows how many. New vaccinations occasionally appear, and old ones are no longer needed as the world has eliminated the disease entirely. Smallpox is a case in point. The vaccination i and probably you had, protects us from it, cowpox and monkeypox. But the disease has died out now so babies havent been vaccinated in years, so monkeypox can get them now...

Has anyone told you about pneumovax? In the UK everyone at 55 or 60 is now given it once at the same time as a flu jab. It protects against pneumococcal disease caused by about 30 types of bacteria. This kills quite a lot of older folk in colder climates.

Yes its essentially a free country in most of the 'free' world, one can make an informed decision that you dont want it, one can also decide you dont want to be resuscitated if your heart stops, but one shouldnt then complain or require extra assistance or deny access to that assistance to others because of that decision.

BTW the yellow card - its still alive and well, as an alternative to the electronic covid vaccination certificate one can have an international vaccination card, they are still the standard in Trinidad and available in other countries, for yellow fever covid etc etc.

Does kids being exposed to dirt keep them healthy ? Yes thats also been proved now, the hypoallergenic and bacteria killling sufaces in houses and the level of cleaning means modern kids are polluted more by chemicals and of course emmissions etc but exposed less to bugs that challenge or teach their immune systems when young, so they are weaker later. Practices with babies/young kids vary globally so much its easy for statisticians to spot the later health differences. My sister is a consultant midwife / trainer in a large hospital, things like some countries feeding any/everything to kids from 3 months vs the 'american' model of highly processed sterilised packets/tins up to 1 or even longer is radically worse.

Thanks for your post- it is all too rare for someone to apologize or admit they were wrong about something.

The original post I took a different way hence your post surprized me.

It seems to me one of the issues surrounding Covid information was that all sorts of commentary being made about something that in reality required more study and experience to understand.

uk_grenada Aug 2nd 2022 7:38 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by morpeth (Post 13132477)
Thanks for your post- it is all too rare for someone to apologize or admit they were wrong about something.

The original post I took a different way hence your post surprized me.

It seems to me one of the issues surrounding Covid information was that all sorts of commentary being made about something that in reality required more study and experience to understand.

I think time to learn about the bug was a luxury that would cost lives? In an environment where people are being bombarded with truth and fiction, and and the news hounds are having a field day.

If the vaccination passed testing, then jam it into as many arms as possible, statistically it saves a lot of life and stops a lot of hurt, and yes there is some human fallout, some death, but it was all being examined so closely - countries were reporting a 1 in a million chance of death accurately. Norway for a while thought it was killing a few old people but it turned out to be a statistical fluke.

One didnt know the actual death rate from covid itself for over a year, but again the nhs number crunchers knew all along this would be true. The crude death rate in the uk was slightly less than 2% but if you can later eliminate the co-morbidities it falls to 1% but 1% DEATH vs 1 in a million sounds decent odds for vaccination?

morpeth Aug 3rd 2022 7:02 am

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by uk_grenada (Post 13132479)
I think time to learn about the bug was a luxury that would cost lives? In an environment where people are being bombarded with truth and fiction, and and the news hounds are having a field day.

If the vaccination passed testing, then jam it into as many arms as possible, statistically it saves a lot of life and stops a lot of hurt, and yes there is some human fallout, some death, but it was all being examined so closely - countries were reporting a 1 in a million chance of death accurately. Norway for a while thought it was killing a few old people but it turned out to be a statistical fluke.

One didnt know the actual death rate from covid itself for over a year, but again the nhs number crunchers knew all along this would be true. The crude death rate in the uk was slightly less than 2% but if you can later eliminate the co-morbidities it falls to 1% but 1% DEATH vs 1 in a million sounds decent odds for vaccination?

I do not know enough to judge well, just pointing out that any such medical issue normally requires much study over tie- in the short time available mistakes could easily be made, and government policy-makers were faced with the difficult task of convincing the public using data involving extrapolations on less than definitive data often to engage in practices that were objectionable.

Gordon Barlow Aug 6th 2022 2:15 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
Leaving controversial uncertainties aside... I'd very much like to know how and why the authorities chose four cubits (six feet) as the safe distance for possible Covid infection. Did they really just take it from the Bible, or did they do careful testing? (I haven't read about any such testing, but I presume there was some. I hope there was!) And, more important perhaps, were the medics of Biblical times correct in choosing that distance for lepers to stay away from the general populace? It seems to be a very ancient belief, from 5000 years ago in Egypt, one source says. Were the medics of those days clever and sophisticated enough to hit upon the optimum "personal distance"? And has it been in use anywhere since then? Was it for all diseases?

So many interesting questions! If we are to have faith in the modern usage, and those who prescribe it, we need some answers.

uk_grenada Aug 6th 2022 2:25 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
The logic is about how far droplets fly if you cough, and i did read some reports in the press over a year ago that studies were done, but that those studies showed a metre was probably enough. There are lots of other factors about getting infected - things like the bug liking cold conditions, and that it could stay viable on different surfaces for differing periods - eg a steel door handle was circa 4 hours, a copper one - minutes.

The mask wearing - scientifically - is a lot more controversial. While those trained to use them in a clinical setting have clear benefits, their use by amateurs using non high standard masks, only results in a small advantage. A meta analysis by a uk university put it at a 9% better chance of not getting infected, but only in indoor close contact situations. In other words, a cubit or two distance is of more benefit than a mask. Consider - if a mask protects you from bugs, where do the bugs end up and do you prevent infection when you take the mask off, and how long is the life of the mask and what happens when you put it on again? These are no-nos with professional use, theres a right way to take it off nd dispose of it, and they are never put on again.

Gloves are actually a no-no. Your hands are to an extent anti - bacterial, gloves are not and can collect and distribute bugs.

winston_1 Aug 6th 2022 8:28 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13132281)
When we left our homelands to see the world, back in the day - 1963, in my case and Linda's - we had to carry little yellow booklets with proof of immunisation against Yellow Fever, cholera and smallpox. Maybe polio too; I can't recall. The injections made us immune from those diseases forever, it was said.

No it didn't. Yellow fever was 10 years, smallpox 3 years, and cholera 6 months.

Gordon Barlow Aug 7th 2022 2:47 am

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by winston_1 (Post 13133387)
No it didn't. Yellow fever was 10 years, smallpox 3 years, and cholera 6 months.

Well done, winston! I have always believed that the smallpox and cholera injections were for life - although I knew the Yellow Fever one had to be renewed. I've now read on the web that smallpox and cholera were pretty much eliminated in the years after 1963, which would have been why countries didn't require proof of inoculation any more. In my travels (to 70 countries over the years, some of them a bit dodgy healthwise) I was never once pulled up for not having the jabs - and I guess I just presumed the original inoculations were in force! We live and learn. Thanks for the update!

winston_1 Aug 7th 2022 8:30 am

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by Gordon Barlow (Post 13133426)
In my travels (to 70 countries over the years, some of them a bit dodgy healthwise) I was never once pulled up for not having the jabs - and I guess I just presumed the original inoculations were in force! We live and learn. Thanks for the update!

In 1970 I had to show proof of jabs at the Iranian embassy before they would issue me a visa. On return to the UK everyone had to show their yellow books but they were not closely inspected.

Bipat Aug 7th 2022 9:57 am

Re: Back in the Day
 

Originally Posted by winston_1 (Post 13133447)
In 1970 I had to show proof of jabs at the Iranian embassy before they would issue me a visa. On return to the UK everyone had to show their yellow books but they were not closely inspected.


Have been reading this thread with interest for some time, as it reminded me of the arduous, lengthy journeys taken decades ago through Europe and India by bus and train, with two, then three small children.
The cholera epidemic in Italy 1973, we were travelling from UK to Greece by train for a holiday. At the Italian border in the early hours all were asked to get off the train and get cholera vaccination, (or go home, if refused the vaccination, I presume!) Of course we had already had cholera vaccine previously for India, so only OH had to temporarily get off ------'Indian' passport the usual hassle', self and sleeping children could remain in our bunks.

Only a few years ago saw the redundant 'cholera beds' being removed for scrap from our Indian town hospital, I realised then that they were metal and sloped to the centre where there was a hole---presumably a bucket placed under.

uk_grenada Aug 7th 2022 1:28 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
Well it seem the covid panic has passed properly now. has the US has unofficially relaxed its stance - sometimes - on covid! Most unamerican and really highly unamerican for the airport gestapo.

On arrival at miami last week i expected to have to prove i was vaccinated, and be fingerprinted, photographed etc as is their wont usually. I think the 2.5 hour queue to get through immigration might have been a factor, but apart from a cursory glance at my passport, i was waved in.

They have also decided that wearing shoes through security is ok, and taking ones laptop etc out of the bag is not required - or at least they said 'today we arent doing that.'

Gordon Barlow Aug 15th 2022 10:26 pm

Re: Back in the Day
 
As I've mentioned before (#10 above, I think), it's a small world sometimes. Here's a story from 1963. As I stepped off the bus from Southampton, in Earl's Court on my first visit overseas, Graham was walking down the street and greeted me: "Hello Pablo!" (my nickname from school, which was the last time I'd seen him - eight years previous.) We hung around a bit in London that winter, then went our separate ways.

A year later, Linda and I were dragged out of a shop in Esfahan, Iran, to meet some other travel-bums, in another shop down the street, and there was Graham again. "Hello Pablo!" He had set out to hitch his way back to Australia, and met up with a Japanese fellow in Spain who was headed for Singapore on his way home. We all chatted away, much to the amusement of the Iranian audience, then took off again - we were headed south, they east. He ended up back in Brisbane as partner of the same accountancy firm as my brother, and we made contact again in 1985. Now we chat on the phone every few weeks, and reminisce about The Good Old Days. Next time, I must ask him what happened with the girlfriend he had during the winter of '63. If he remembers...


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