David Johnstone

"Karen Selwyn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:zD9zb.41332$Ac3.19079@lakeread01...
    > David Johnstone wrote:
    > We have hotel reservations at the Marriott Royal hotel for the days
    > before we join the university group. (With the group, we'll be staying
    > on board a ship which will take us from Moscow to St. Petersburg.) Is
    > the Royal an "official" hotel? If so, who needs to be the signatory on
    > the letter?

I am pretty sure the Marriot would be able to send you an invitation,
and no doubt register your visa too. They are really supposed only to
register you for the place and time you are staying with them, but
sometimes if it is just a few days extra they'll do the whole period.

    > > (3) You can buy an invitation from a registered agent - there are
    > > some on the internet offering invitations from EUR25 or so.
    > Any recommendations among these agents assuming our hotel is not an
    > official hotel?

I haven't used their services myself or heard any reports so I can't
really recommend any. But in the course of my researches the most
reasonably priced and reliable/serious sounding (as far as one can tell
from a web site of course), were:
http://english.tour-service.ru/tour_visa.htm
http://www.visaru.com/rusvisa/tourist.shtml

    > > If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
    > Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.

As in many countries the police are entitled to do random checks.
Someone I knew was registered for Ekaterinburg and went hiking
in the mountains. He was controlled out there somewhere he wasn't
registered and let of with a warning, but I imagine it is conceivable
that you could have to pay a fine, or possibly even be detained for a
bit.

I was given dire warnings about the consequences of failing to register
BTW. Apparantly in that case it is not unlikely on departure that you
will be sent back from the airport to get an exit visa and pay a fine of
up to USD2000.
Of course your flight would be long gone then too, and the authorities
have very limited opening hours so you could have to wait a few days!
This is BTW also the major problem if you should lose your passport.
Your embassy can probably get you an emergency passport very fast,
but since the visa and proof of registration are in the original those are
gone too. So make a copy of your passport AND visa and keep those
in a safe place - it could just help in an emergency.

have fun and try to relax!
David

Karen Selwyn

David Johnstone wrote:
    > I am pretty sure the Marriot would be able to send you an invitation,
    > and no doubt register your visa too....
    > have fun and try to relax!

Thanks for your useful information. Knowing the visa challenge that lies
ahead, we'll get going as early as possible so we will eventually be
able to have fun and relax!

Karen Selwyn

Jim Ley

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:12:20 +0100, Jesper Lauridsen
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:54:14 +0100, Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>The only bar in town was a mafia den. We had the pleasure of watching
    >>while the pretty young hooker who failed to pick up a trick was dragged
    >>across the floor by her hair and kicked in the stomach for punishment.
    >A true gentleman would have saved her by giving her some business,

Does the wife/girlfriend believe that was the reason you were going
with hookers?

Jim.

Bjorn Olsson

[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>.. .
    > Bjorn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
    > >> horribly mean
    > >
    > > Once you get used to this difference, you will start noticing that the
    > > quality of service that you get is approximately the same, and you
    > > will perhaps even realize that this is what actually matters. Perhaps
    > > you will even, like me, start getting annoyed when, back in the west,
    > > beeing greated with a pointless "How are you today?" in the grocery
    > > store by some complete stranger whose job it is to simply receive your
    > > payment and give you a receipt.
    >
    > I lived in New York for years and loved it. I don't have any need for long
    > smiles and empty chatter from grocery clerks.
    >
    > My experiences with Russian bureaucrats have gone many steps beyond this
    > simple dispensation with empty social ritual, past the line of explicit and
    > clearly intentional mendacity.

So when you wrote "people are horribly mean" we should have read "the
bureaucrats are horribly mean"?

Bjorn

Bjorn Olsson

Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Bjorn Olsson schrieb:
    > >
    > > Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > > >
    > > > Any more questions?
    > >
    > > When were you there?
    >
    > 1996

That's a loong time ago.

Bjorn

Bjorn Olsson

"David Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Karen Selwyn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:zD9zb.41332$Ac3.19079@lakeread01...
    > > David Johnstone wrote:
    > > We have hotel reservations at the Marriott Royal hotel for the days
    > > before we join the university group. (With the group, we'll be staying
    > > on board a ship which will take us from Moscow to St. Petersburg.) Is
    > > the Royal an "official" hotel? If so, who needs to be the signatory on
    > > the letter?
    >
    > I am pretty sure the Marriot would be able to send you an invitation,
    > and no doubt register your visa too. They are really supposed only to
    > register you for the place and time you are staying with them, but
    > sometimes if it is just a few days extra they'll do the whole period.

Are you sure the registration is for a specific time period?

    > > > (3) You can buy an invitation from a registered agent - there are
    > > > some on the internet offering invitations from EUR25 or so.
    > >
    > > Any recommendations among these agents assuming our hotel is not an
    > > official hotel?
    >
    > I haven't used their services myself or heard any reports so I can't
    > really recommend any. But in the course of my researches the most
    > reasonably priced and reliable/serious sounding (as far as one can tell
    > from a web site of course), were:
    > http://english.tour-service.ru/tour_visa.htm
    > http://www.visaru.com/rusvisa/tourist.shtml
    >
    > >
    > > > If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
    > >
    > > Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.
    >
    > As in many countries the police are entitled to do random checks.
    > Someone I knew was registered for Ekaterinburg and went hiking
    > in the mountains. He was controlled out there somewhere he wasn't
    > registered and let of with a warning, but I imagine it is conceivable
    > that you could have to pay a fine, or possibly even be detained for a
    > bit.

I don't understand this. As far as I know, the point of registration
does not appear in the visa. The visa is a sticker in your passport,
so I don't understand how whoever checked him could have known where
he had registered. Also, as far as I know, you only register once,
regardless of how many places you visit on your trip. At least I have
never re-registered when arriving in another city, and even the idea
of doing so has never been raised. I have several times stayed in two
cities on the same trip, and have never registered in more than one.
There has never been any problem with that.

Are you sure he didn't go wandering too close to a military base by
mistake, or something like that?

Bjorn

Miguel Cruz

Bjorn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
    >> My experiences with Russian bureaucrats have gone many steps beyond this
    >> simple dispensation with empty social ritual, past the line of explicit and
    >> clearly intentional mendacity.
    > So when you wrote "people are horribly mean" we should have read "the
    > bureaucrats are horribly mean"?

No, if you'll look back, you'll see that my conclusions have synthesized my
own experiences (which involved bureaucrats) with others' experiences (which
involved the gamut of typical foreign visitor encounters in the country.

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

David Johnstone

"Bjorn Olsson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > > I am pretty sure the Marriot would be able to send you an invitation,
    > > and no doubt register your visa too. They are really supposed only to
    > > register you for the place and time you are staying with them, but
    > > sometimes if it is just a few days extra they'll do the whole period.
    > Are you sure the registration is for a specific time period?
    > I don't understand this. As far as I know, the point of registration
    > does not appear in the visa. The visa is a sticker in your passport,
    > so I don't understand how whoever checked him could have known where
    > he had registered. Also, as far as I know, you only register once,
    > regardless of how many places you visit on your trip. At least I have
    > never re-registered when arriving in another city, and even the idea
    > of doing so has never been raised. I have several times stayed in two
    > cities on the same trip, and have never registered in more than one.
    > There has never been any problem with that.

Good questions indeed. One of the problems is that it is difficult to get
really legally binding and consistant information when you have really
specific questions. The position seems to change pretty fast and be
handled differently by different authorities.

I did the registration through an informal agent I found on the internet.
True, the visa itself does not have the area on it. But to do the
registration he needed not just my passport with visa but also the
voucher/invitation, which *did* have the area I was registered for on
it. And the registration itself consists of a stamp in the visa where *both*
region (Oblast Sverdlovsk in my case), *and* period of validity are
clearly given. I imagine the idea is that the authorities want to know
who is where when and that if you were controlled e.g. in Novosibirsk
in the middle of a 2-week registration stamp for Moscow you would
at least have some explaining to do. I have been told by several people
that you have to register everywhere new you go, and that the visa
(or at least voucher/invitation) has to cover the area. Admittedly none
were actual civil servants/officials of the Russian Federation, but they
did include my travel agent here who did the visa application and my
contact there, as well as two other residents, one of whom was a
foreigner. So if that is wrong I would like to know.

Of course you do also have the 3 working days though so if you are
moving fast you could forget about it. A lot of people do the trans-
siberian express and obviously they wouldn't register everywhere.
I was also told that this registration ruling applies not only to tourists
but also to Russian residents and citizens.

    > > As in many countries the police are entitled to do random checks.
    > > Someone I knew was registered for Ekaterinburg and went hiking
    > > in the mountains. He was controlled out there somewhere he wasn't
    > > registered and let of with a warning, but I imagine it is conceivable
    > > that you could have to pay a fine, or possibly even be detained for a
    > > bit.
    > Are you sure he didn't go wandering too close to a military base by
    > mistake, or something like that?

He didn't mention anything about that that though of course the Ural
region around Ekaterinburg is littered with military and defence related
strategic sites (cf. the Anthrax incident - Sverdlovsk 17) . An historical
legacy - since Napolean the Russians have withdrawn to behind the
Urals at every invasion. Until pretty recently the whole area was a no-go
zone

David

Bjorn Olsson

"David Johnstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Bjorn Olsson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > > I am pretty sure the Marriot would be able to send you an invitation,
    > > > and no doubt register your visa too. They are really supposed only to
    > > > register you for the place and time you are staying with them, but
    > > > sometimes if it is just a few days extra they'll do the whole period.
    > >
    > > Are you sure the registration is for a specific time period?
    > >
    > > I don't understand this. As far as I know, the point of registration
    > > does not appear in the visa. The visa is a sticker in your passport,
    > > so I don't understand how whoever checked him could have known where
    > > he had registered. Also, as far as I know, you only register once,
    > > regardless of how many places you visit on your trip. At least I have
    > > never re-registered when arriving in another city, and even the idea
    > > of doing so has never been raised. I have several times stayed in two
    > > cities on the same trip, and have never registered in more than one.
    > > There has never been any problem with that.
    > >
    >
    > Good questions indeed. One of the problems is that it is difficult to get
    > really legally binding and consistant information when you have really
    > specific questions. The position seems to change pretty fast and be
    > handled differently by different authorities.
    >
    > I did the registration through an informal agent I found on the internet.
    > True, the visa itself does not have the area on it. But to do the
    > registration he needed not just my passport with visa but also the
    > voucher/invitation, which *did* have the area I was registered for on
    > it. And the registration itself consists of a stamp in the visa where *both*
    > region (Oblast Sverdlovsk in my case), *and* period of validity are
    > clearly given.

Well, ok, except that the stamp is not in the visa, but on a separate
page of the passport (at least my stamps).

    > I imagine the idea is that the authorities want to know
    > who is where when and that if you were controlled e.g. in Novosibirsk
    > in the middle of a 2-week registration stamp for Moscow you would
    > at least have some explaining to do. I have been told by several people
    > that you have to register everywhere new you go, and that the visa
    > (or at least voucher/invitation) has to cover the area. Admittedly none
    > were actual civil servants/officials of the Russian Federation, but they
    > did include my travel agent here who did the visa application and my
    > contact there, as well as two other residents, one of whom was a
    > foreigner. So if that is wrong I would like to know.

All I know is I've never done it, and no-one has ever suggested I do
it. I have done several trips where I stayed in more than one city,
sometimes staying in private homes and sometimes in hotels. I'd
imagine the hotel clerks would know if it is necessary to re-register
and suggest that I do so, but they haven't.

    > Of course you do also have the 3 working days though so if you are
    > moving fast you could forget about it. A lot of people do the trans-
    > siberian express and obviously they wouldn't register everywhere.
    > I was also told that this registration ruling applies not only to tourists
    > but also to Russian residents and citizens.

They have to register if they move somewhere (just as people do in
most countries). They definitely don't register because they go visit
some place for a few days.

Bjorn

Bjorn Olsson

[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Bjorn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
    > >> My experiences with Russian bureaucrats have gone many steps beyond this
    > >> simple dispensation with empty social ritual, past the line of explicit and
    > >> clearly intentional mendacity.
    > >
    > > So when you wrote "people are horribly mean" we should have read "the
    > > bureaucrats are horribly mean"?
    >
    > No, if you'll look back, you'll see that my conclusions have synthesized my
    > own experiences (which involved bureaucrats) with others' experiences (which
    > involved the gamut of typical foreign visitor encounters in the country.

I'm surprised - and disappointed - that the experienced and (usually)
open-minded world-traveller who have been to so many countries on all
continents is in this case content to dismiss 150 million people as
"horribly mean", based on an amalgamation of experiences with a few
bureaucrats and stories from other travellers. Why not do as you
usually seem to do: visit the country, learn about it from own
experiences, and then come back and tell us what you think?

Bjorn

Helmut Uttenthaler

"David Johnstone" <[email protected]> schrieb
    > I did the registration through an informal agent I found on the internet.
    > True, the visa itself does not have the area on it. But to do the
    > registration he needed not just my passport with visa but also the
    > voucher/invitation, which *did* have the area I was registered for on
    > it. And the registration itself consists of a stamp in the visa where
*both*
    > region (Oblast Sverdlovsk in my case), *and* period of validity are
    > clearly given. I imagine the idea is that the authorities want to know
    > who is where when and that if you were controlled e.g. in Novosibirsk
    > in the middle of a 2-week registration stamp for Moscow you would
    > at least have some explaining to do. I have been told by several people
    > that you have to register everywhere new you go, and that the visa
    > (or at least voucher/invitation) has to cover the area. Admittedly none
    > were actual civil servants/officials of the Russian Federation, but they
    > did include my travel agent here who did the visa application and my
    > contact there, as well as two other residents, one of whom was a
    > foreigner. So if that is wrong I would like to know.


Last year I made a trip Graz (Austria) - Moskva (1 night) - 4 nights on the
train - Listwjanka (Baikal, 3 nights) - 2 nights on the train - Ekaterinburg
(2 nights) - Austria.

The visa was valid from 2002-07-21 till 2002-08-05.

The registration was only done one time, in Moskva. The registration stamp
contained following information:

Registrazia No. 032667
Na pravo prebyvanija w RF
s 22.07. po 05.08.2002g.
g. Moskva OAO "Rossija"
No. 1 22-23.07


So it seems to me that the registration is sufficient for the whole period
(except the first day - 2002-07-21, which was spent on then train to
Moskva).

However, nobody asked for the registration when we left Russia via Belarus,
because there are no border controls at the Russian-Belorussian border...
At the Belorussian-Polish border it seemed that the officials were only
interested in the Belorussian transit visa - I didn't get an exit-stamp on
my Russian visa (hope that's no problem for my nect trip to Russia...)



--
Helmut Uttenthaler,
Graz

Miguel Cruz

Bjorn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
    >> No, if you'll look back, you'll see that my conclusions have synthesized
    >> my own experiences (which involved bureaucrats) with others' experiences
    >> (which involved the gamut of typical foreign visitor encounters in the
    >> country.
    > I'm surprised - and disappointed - that the experienced and (usually)
    > open-minded world-traveller who have been to so many countries on all
    > continents is in this case content to dismiss 150 million people as
    > "horribly mean", based on an amalgamation of experiences with a few
    > bureaucrats and stories from other travellers. Why not do as you
    > usually seem to do: visit the country, learn about it from own
    > experiences, and then come back and tell us what you think?

I guess I'll probably end up doing it one day, for work or something. It is
the only country on the planet, however, where my limited contact and the
near-unanimous reports of people I trust, has left me with absolutely no
interest in seeing for myself. I've only got a limited amount of time before
I keel over; there are a whole lot of other places I'm going to first!

miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/

Bjorn Olsson

[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Bjorn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
    > >> No, if you'll look back, you'll see that my conclusions have synthesized
    > >> my own experiences (which involved bureaucrats) with others' experiences
    > >> (which involved the gamut of typical foreign visitor encounters in the
    > >> country.
    > >
    > > I'm surprised - and disappointed - that the experienced and (usually)
    > > open-minded world-traveller who have been to so many countries on all
    > > continents is in this case content to dismiss 150 million people as
    > > "horribly mean", based on an amalgamation of experiences with a few
    > > bureaucrats and stories from other travellers. Why not do as you
    > > usually seem to do: visit the country, learn about it from own
    > > experiences, and then come back and tell us what you think?
    >
    > I guess I'll probably end up doing it one day, for work or something. It is
    > the only country on the planet, however, where my limited contact and the
    > near-unanimous reports of people I trust, has left me with absolutely no
    > interest in seeing for myself. I've only got a limited amount of time before
    > I keel over; there are a whole lot of other places I'm going to first!

Trust who you want and travel where you wish, but it may be a good
idea to leave the conclusion-drawing until you have found out for
yourself.

Bjorn

Markku GröNroos

"Bjorn Olsson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Trust who you want and travel where you wish, but it may be a good
    > idea to leave the conclusion-drawing until you have found out for
    > yourself.
In my opinion too Russia must be one of the least attractive countries for
leasure travel.

David Johnstone

"Bjorn Olsson" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]...
    > All I know is I've never done it, and no-one has ever suggested I do
    > it. I have done several trips where I stayed in more than one city,
    > sometimes staying in private homes and sometimes in hotels. I'd
    > imagine the hotel clerks would know if it is necessary to re-register
    > and suggest that I do so, but they haven't.

OK, so basically neither of us actually know in the sense of having
official information, we have just been advised differently and reached
different conclusions. I have been unable to find this information on
any embassy website, I will perhaps ask officially.

    > They have to register if they move somewhere (just as people do in
    > most countries). They definitely don't register because they go visit
    > some place for a few days.

Residents are still not free to just settle down on a permanent basis
in a new area. If you live in Ekaterinburg and want to move to
Moscow you need permission to move there, as well as of course
having to register on arrival. If you want to visit relatives in another
area for a week, the law states that you have to register with the
authorities there too. Of course what people do in practice and
what the law states may be different. In Italy for example the latter
would apply too but almost no-one would bother.

David