Why don't people travel
Dec 2nd 2003, 12:52 am
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Dmitrij <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
>
> The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
> would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can have an
> equivalent experience."
Try to find out the obstacles involved in getting av US visa for a
Russian and reevaluate your position afterwards.
> While I've never been to Russia personally (only as close as the Baltics),
> my sense, formed from dealing with Russians in the Baltics and from hearing
> many, many stories from travelers I know to ordinarily be of good cheer and
> sunny disposition, is that people are horribly mean, the food is awful, and
> accomodations/meals of any reasonable standard are very expensive.
Sounds like theese cheerful and sunny disponated friends of yours,
aren't as brilliant as cheerful.
There is know such thing as a "be nice" culture, so just forget the
whole idea about it. There is such a thing as feeling uncertain and
alone in many situation when you visit a place you don't know, with
habbits you don't know and speaking a language you don't understand.
Your own cultural background can also trip you into making wrong
judgement about other people, because you misinterpret their
behaviour.
Second, if you visit a poor country you will probably experience
people commuicating that they are hungry and others that obviously are
poor and/or ill. On the other hand you will probably experience some
people that are richer than what you are used to at home. What you
actually experience is called real life, and it is a very useful
experience.
Third, the food is quite all right. Personally I find the starters
(the soups are fantastic - try Saljenka ) and the desserts (Russian
icecream are by many regarded as the best on Earth) more intersing
than the main courses. Buy a travelers guide in order to find what to
look out for, what to expect and the most common ingredients.
> This is
> not an appealing reputation. The mean-people issue may not be such a problem
> in central Russia but in the western cities it seems to discourage a lot of
> repeat visitors.
It is fairer to say this is not an appealing way to talk about others.
First, you talk about something you have no experience with. Second
you take the sugestions from people with bad manners or/and little
knowledge about foreign cultures for face value.
Best regards,
Jan
> Dmitrij <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
>
> The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
> would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can have an
> equivalent experience."
Try to find out the obstacles involved in getting av US visa for a
Russian and reevaluate your position afterwards.
> While I've never been to Russia personally (only as close as the Baltics),
> my sense, formed from dealing with Russians in the Baltics and from hearing
> many, many stories from travelers I know to ordinarily be of good cheer and
> sunny disposition, is that people are horribly mean, the food is awful, and
> accomodations/meals of any reasonable standard are very expensive.
Sounds like theese cheerful and sunny disponated friends of yours,
aren't as brilliant as cheerful.
There is know such thing as a "be nice" culture, so just forget the
whole idea about it. There is such a thing as feeling uncertain and
alone in many situation when you visit a place you don't know, with
habbits you don't know and speaking a language you don't understand.
Your own cultural background can also trip you into making wrong
judgement about other people, because you misinterpret their
behaviour.
Second, if you visit a poor country you will probably experience
people commuicating that they are hungry and others that obviously are
poor and/or ill. On the other hand you will probably experience some
people that are richer than what you are used to at home. What you
actually experience is called real life, and it is a very useful
experience.
Third, the food is quite all right. Personally I find the starters
(the soups are fantastic - try Saljenka ) and the desserts (Russian
icecream are by many regarded as the best on Earth) more intersing
than the main courses. Buy a travelers guide in order to find what to
look out for, what to expect and the most common ingredients.
> This is
> not an appealing reputation. The mean-people issue may not be such a problem
> in central Russia but in the western cities it seems to discourage a lot of
> repeat visitors.
It is fairer to say this is not an appealing way to talk about others.
First, you talk about something you have no experience with. Second
you take the sugestions from people with bad manners or/and little
knowledge about foreign cultures for face value.
Best regards,
Jan
Dec 2nd 2003, 1:09 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<YKPyb.39212$Ac3.980@lakeread01>...
> second message that mentions the obstacles of obtaining a visa. Can you
> provide any specific information about the difficulties or strategies
> for minimizing those difficulties?
> I ask because my husband and I will be going to Russia this summer. The
> tour operator uses a visa service ... However, as residents of the DC
> metropolitan area there was no way I was going to pay an outrageous visa
> service fee for something I could do myself with little effort. And
> that's the way it turned out when I obtained our visas to China.
> However, if the process is markedly more difficult getting visas to
> Russia, I might consider letting someone else do the heavy lifting.
The short answer is : Let them handle the obstacles of obtaining a
visa.
If the rules are as for Norwegian citizes, the price is higher the
sooner you need the visa after delivering the appication. In order to
get a visa you need a written booking at a hotel (tourist visa) or an
written invitation (business visa). Norwegians gets the best price if
delivering the application more than 10 days before you need it back.
Check out the details. As I have heard, no one pays a higher price for
a visa than American citizens. This has to do with politial terror
balance things. When you arrive you need to register the visa. This is
normally handled by the hotel or tour operator. Believe me, you are
not interested in doing this yourself.
Another good advice is to learn the cyrillic alphabet. It is not very
hard and will give you a much more interesting holiday
Have a great stay,
Jan
> second message that mentions the obstacles of obtaining a visa. Can you
> provide any specific information about the difficulties or strategies
> for minimizing those difficulties?
> I ask because my husband and I will be going to Russia this summer. The
> tour operator uses a visa service ... However, as residents of the DC
> metropolitan area there was no way I was going to pay an outrageous visa
> service fee for something I could do myself with little effort. And
> that's the way it turned out when I obtained our visas to China.
> However, if the process is markedly more difficult getting visas to
> Russia, I might consider letting someone else do the heavy lifting.
The short answer is : Let them handle the obstacles of obtaining a
visa.
If the rules are as for Norwegian citizes, the price is higher the
sooner you need the visa after delivering the appication. In order to
get a visa you need a written booking at a hotel (tourist visa) or an
written invitation (business visa). Norwegians gets the best price if
delivering the application more than 10 days before you need it back.
Check out the details. As I have heard, no one pays a higher price for
a visa than American citizens. This has to do with politial terror
balance things. When you arrive you need to register the visa. This is
normally handled by the hotel or tour operator. Believe me, you are
not interested in doing this yourself.
Another good advice is to learn the cyrillic alphabet. It is not very
hard and will give you a much more interesting holiday
Have a great stay,
Jan
Dec 2nd 2003, 1:16 am
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Dmitrij schrieb:
> >
> > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
> >
> > Dmitrij
>
> Well, I have been to Perm and it is not a trip I would care to repeat.
> The flight in the derelict Tu134 from Moscow was the only time in my
> many years flying experience that I have had serious doubts about
> getting out of the plane alive.
There are direct flights to Perm by Lufthansa, which flies Airbus, if
you are keen to avoid Tupolev flights. However, Tupolevs do fly as
safely as any other aircraft if properly maintained, and the ones I've
used with Pulkovo seemed to be in very good condition. I can't say
about Aeroflot's planes on the Moscow-Perm route, but in general
Aeroflot is nowadays a high-quality operation. I have had more bad
experiences with US and European airlines than with Aeroflot (with
which I haven't had any, despite a dozen trips).
> The only hotel in town was a cockroach-ridden rathole.
"The only hotel"??. As far as I know there are at least a dozen hotels
to choose from. I doubt very much that you will find any cockroaches
if you choose the Almaz Urala:
http://all-hotels.ru/htlphotos.en.ht...09b6d&h=116326
> The only bar in town was a mafia den.
"The only bar"?? There are litterally hundreds of bars in Perm. Here
is a (non-complete) listing of 85 of them:
http://bar.perm.ru/?w=%E1%E0%F0&l=all&q=0
> We had the pleasure of watching
> while the pretty young hooker who failed to pick up a trick was dragged
> across the floor by her hair and kicked in the stomach for punishment.
>
> Oh, and we also learnt about how many of the rivers and lakes are
> hopelessly polluted with atomic waste.
It's a big region, in which you can find hopelessely polluted
industrial areas, as well as beautiful nature, idyllic countryside and
unspoilt wilderness.
> Any more questions?
When were you there?
Bjorn
> Dmitrij schrieb:
> >
> > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
> >
> > Dmitrij
>
> Well, I have been to Perm and it is not a trip I would care to repeat.
> The flight in the derelict Tu134 from Moscow was the only time in my
> many years flying experience that I have had serious doubts about
> getting out of the plane alive.
There are direct flights to Perm by Lufthansa, which flies Airbus, if
you are keen to avoid Tupolev flights. However, Tupolevs do fly as
safely as any other aircraft if properly maintained, and the ones I've
used with Pulkovo seemed to be in very good condition. I can't say
about Aeroflot's planes on the Moscow-Perm route, but in general
Aeroflot is nowadays a high-quality operation. I have had more bad
experiences with US and European airlines than with Aeroflot (with
which I haven't had any, despite a dozen trips).
> The only hotel in town was a cockroach-ridden rathole.
"The only hotel"??. As far as I know there are at least a dozen hotels
to choose from. I doubt very much that you will find any cockroaches
if you choose the Almaz Urala:
http://all-hotels.ru/htlphotos.en.ht...09b6d&h=116326
> The only bar in town was a mafia den.
"The only bar"?? There are litterally hundreds of bars in Perm. Here
is a (non-complete) listing of 85 of them:
http://bar.perm.ru/?w=%E1%E0%F0&l=all&q=0
> We had the pleasure of watching
> while the pretty young hooker who failed to pick up a trick was dragged
> across the floor by her hair and kicked in the stomach for punishment.
>
> Oh, and we also learnt about how many of the rivers and lakes are
> hopelessly polluted with atomic waste.
It's a big region, in which you can find hopelessely polluted
industrial areas, as well as beautiful nature, idyllic countryside and
unspoilt wilderness.
> Any more questions?
When were you there?
Bjorn
Dec 2nd 2003, 3:08 am
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
One answer is that it isn't exotic or interesting enough for folks who
like difficult places and is way too difficult for folks who do not.
There are far too many places to visit and little to make the Urals
stand out.
FFM
Dmitrij wrote:
> Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
>
> Dmitrij
like difficult places and is way too difficult for folks who do not.
There are far too many places to visit and little to make the Urals
stand out.
FFM
Dmitrij wrote:
> Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
>
> Dmitrij
Dec 2nd 2003, 6:00 am
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Hi Karen,
To the Russian Visa question:
The simplest way to get a tourist visa for Russia is to go to
a specialist travel agent who will get the visa for you.
Of course that costs a bit more. I paid around EUR100 for
this - theoretically I could have got a visa myself for as little
as EUR60 (basic 4 week tourist visa). If you book a package
deal the agent usually does it all for you.
If you want to apply for a visa yourself you need an invitation.
You have several possibilities there:-
(1) You can get a private person in Russia to invite you. That
person has to apply to the authorities in Russia for an invitation,
which means long waits, expense and inconvenience for them.
The application can also be turned down for no reason.
(2) You can book a stay at an "official" (hangover from the intourist
days) hotel - generally they are expensive.
(3) You can buy an invitation from a registered agent - there are
some on the internet offering invitations from EUR25 or so.
Then you would need photos, proof of medical insurance, passport
and completed forms - and send that to the Embassy together with
a fee. The cheapest service here takes about 4 weeks.
You have to specify your itenerary, i.e. the areas of Russia where
you are going to be when. If you get controlled somewhere else,
you can have problems. Also you have to register with the authorities
(OVIR) within 3 working days of arrival They will stamp your visa,
and failure to have a stamp can cause problems on departure. Some
hotels can take care of that for you.
All of this burocracy somehow has disturbingly threatening undertones.
It is a relic from the old soviet days, like a lot of things. The thing is
not
to take it personally. Russians I spoke to about it were sympathetic -
they live under this system their whole lives, and are subject to such
things at every turn in life. See them as fellow-sufferers rather than
perpertrators. Even the authorities I dealt with were hepful, polite and
sympathetic, especially when I attempted a few words of russian. I think
most of them realise that their system is slightly absurd.
David
PS. Above comments are based on the rules in Germany for EU
citizens. Broadly it is similar in most western countries I think.
"Karen Selwyn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:YKPyb.39212$Ac3.980@lakeread01...
> David Johnstone wrote:
> >>
> >>The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
> >>would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can
> > The visa thing is a pain, no question. I almost cancelled my trip for
that
> > reason.
> I haven't been reading this thread since the beginning, but this is the
> second message that mentions the obstacles of obtaining a visa. Can you
> provide any specific information about the difficulties or strategies
> for minimizing those difficulties?
> I ask because my husband and I will be going to Russia this summer. The
> tour operator uses a visa service. This is the same procedure they used
> when we traveled with them to China. However, as residents of the DC
> metropolitan area there was no way I was going to pay an outrageous visa
> service fee for something I could do myself with little effort. And
> that's the way it turned out when I obtained our visas to China.
> However, if the process is markedly more difficult getting visas to
> Russia, I might consider letting someone else do the heavy lifting.
> Thanks!
> Karen Selwyn
To the Russian Visa question:
The simplest way to get a tourist visa for Russia is to go to
a specialist travel agent who will get the visa for you.
Of course that costs a bit more. I paid around EUR100 for
this - theoretically I could have got a visa myself for as little
as EUR60 (basic 4 week tourist visa). If you book a package
deal the agent usually does it all for you.
If you want to apply for a visa yourself you need an invitation.
You have several possibilities there:-
(1) You can get a private person in Russia to invite you. That
person has to apply to the authorities in Russia for an invitation,
which means long waits, expense and inconvenience for them.
The application can also be turned down for no reason.
(2) You can book a stay at an "official" (hangover from the intourist
days) hotel - generally they are expensive.
(3) You can buy an invitation from a registered agent - there are
some on the internet offering invitations from EUR25 or so.
Then you would need photos, proof of medical insurance, passport
and completed forms - and send that to the Embassy together with
a fee. The cheapest service here takes about 4 weeks.
You have to specify your itenerary, i.e. the areas of Russia where
you are going to be when. If you get controlled somewhere else,
you can have problems. Also you have to register with the authorities
(OVIR) within 3 working days of arrival They will stamp your visa,
and failure to have a stamp can cause problems on departure. Some
hotels can take care of that for you.
All of this burocracy somehow has disturbingly threatening undertones.
It is a relic from the old soviet days, like a lot of things. The thing is
not
to take it personally. Russians I spoke to about it were sympathetic -
they live under this system their whole lives, and are subject to such
things at every turn in life. See them as fellow-sufferers rather than
perpertrators. Even the authorities I dealt with were hepful, polite and
sympathetic, especially when I attempted a few words of russian. I think
most of them realise that their system is slightly absurd.
David
PS. Above comments are based on the rules in Germany for EU
citizens. Broadly it is similar in most western countries I think.
"Karen Selwyn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:YKPyb.39212$Ac3.980@lakeread01...
> David Johnstone wrote:
> >>
> >>The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
> >>would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can
> > The visa thing is a pain, no question. I almost cancelled my trip for
that
> > reason.
> I haven't been reading this thread since the beginning, but this is the
> second message that mentions the obstacles of obtaining a visa. Can you
> provide any specific information about the difficulties or strategies
> for minimizing those difficulties?
> I ask because my husband and I will be going to Russia this summer. The
> tour operator uses a visa service. This is the same procedure they used
> when we traveled with them to China. However, as residents of the DC
> metropolitan area there was no way I was going to pay an outrageous visa
> service fee for something I could do myself with little effort. And
> that's the way it turned out when I obtained our visas to China.
> However, if the process is markedly more difficult getting visas to
> Russia, I might consider letting someone else do the heavy lifting.
> Thanks!
> Karen Selwyn
Dec 2nd 2003, 8:45 am
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Bjorn Olsson schrieb:
>
> Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Dmitrij schrieb:
> > >
> > > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
> > >
> > > Dmitrij
> >
> > Well, I have been to Perm and it is not a trip I would care to repeat.
> > The flight in the derelict Tu134 from Moscow was the only time in my
> > many years flying experience that I have had serious doubts about
> > getting out of the plane alive.
>
> There are direct flights to Perm by Lufthansa, which flies Airbus, if
> you are keen to avoid Tupolev flights. However, Tupolevs do fly as
> safely as any other aircraft if properly maintained, and the ones I've
> used with Pulkovo seemed to be in very good condition. I can't say
> about Aeroflot's planes on the Moscow-Perm route, but in general
> Aeroflot is nowadays a high-quality operation. I have had more bad
> experiences with US and European airlines than with Aeroflot (with
> which I haven't had any, despite a dozen trips).
>
> > The only hotel in town was a cockroach-ridden rathole.
>
> "The only hotel"??. As far as I know there are at least a dozen hotels
> to choose from. I doubt very much that you will find any cockroaches
> if you choose the Almaz Urala:
>
> http://all-hotels.ru/htlphotos.en.ht...09b6d&h=116326
>
> > The only bar in town was a mafia den.
>
> "The only bar"?? There are litterally hundreds of bars in Perm. Here
> is a (non-complete) listing of 85 of them:
>
> http://bar.perm.ru/?w=%E1%E0%F0&l=all&q=0
>
> > We had the pleasure of watching
> > while the pretty young hooker who failed to pick up a trick was dragged
> > across the floor by her hair and kicked in the stomach for punishment.
> >
> > Oh, and we also learnt about how many of the rivers and lakes are
> > hopelessly polluted with atomic waste.
>
> It's a big region, in which you can find hopelessely polluted
> industrial areas, as well as beautiful nature, idyllic countryside and
> unspoilt wilderness.
>
> > Any more questions?
>
> When were you there?
>
> Bjorn
1996
>
> Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Dmitrij schrieb:
> > >
> > > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
> > >
> > > Dmitrij
> >
> > Well, I have been to Perm and it is not a trip I would care to repeat.
> > The flight in the derelict Tu134 from Moscow was the only time in my
> > many years flying experience that I have had serious doubts about
> > getting out of the plane alive.
>
> There are direct flights to Perm by Lufthansa, which flies Airbus, if
> you are keen to avoid Tupolev flights. However, Tupolevs do fly as
> safely as any other aircraft if properly maintained, and the ones I've
> used with Pulkovo seemed to be in very good condition. I can't say
> about Aeroflot's planes on the Moscow-Perm route, but in general
> Aeroflot is nowadays a high-quality operation. I have had more bad
> experiences with US and European airlines than with Aeroflot (with
> which I haven't had any, despite a dozen trips).
>
> > The only hotel in town was a cockroach-ridden rathole.
>
> "The only hotel"??. As far as I know there are at least a dozen hotels
> to choose from. I doubt very much that you will find any cockroaches
> if you choose the Almaz Urala:
>
> http://all-hotels.ru/htlphotos.en.ht...09b6d&h=116326
>
> > The only bar in town was a mafia den.
>
> "The only bar"?? There are litterally hundreds of bars in Perm. Here
> is a (non-complete) listing of 85 of them:
>
> http://bar.perm.ru/?w=%E1%E0%F0&l=all&q=0
>
> > We had the pleasure of watching
> > while the pretty young hooker who failed to pick up a trick was dragged
> > across the floor by her hair and kicked in the stomach for punishment.
> >
> > Oh, and we also learnt about how many of the rivers and lakes are
> > hopelessly polluted with atomic waste.
>
> It's a big region, in which you can find hopelessely polluted
> industrial areas, as well as beautiful nature, idyllic countryside and
> unspoilt wilderness.
>
> > Any more questions?
>
> When were you there?
>
> Bjorn
1996
Dec 2nd 2003, 8:50 am
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Jesper Lauridsen schrieb:
>
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:54:14 +0100, Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The only bar in town was a mafia den. We had the pleasure of watching
> >while the pretty young hooker who failed to pick up a trick was dragged
> >across the floor by her hair and kicked in the stomach for punishment.
>
> A true gentleman would have saved her by giving her some business,
>
> >Oh, and we also learnt about how many of the rivers and lakes are
> >hopelessly polluted with atomic waste.
>
> I doubt that it was _atomic_ waste.
Nuclear waste? I've been to a lot of places in Russia, but Perm was one
place I would never like to visit again.
Tom
>
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:54:14 +0100, Thomas Peel <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The only bar in town was a mafia den. We had the pleasure of watching
> >while the pretty young hooker who failed to pick up a trick was dragged
> >across the floor by her hair and kicked in the stomach for punishment.
>
> A true gentleman would have saved her by giving her some business,
>
> >Oh, and we also learnt about how many of the rivers and lakes are
> >hopelessly polluted with atomic waste.
>
> I doubt that it was _atomic_ waste.
Nuclear waste? I've been to a lot of places in Russia, but Perm was one
place I would never like to visit again.
Tom
Dec 2nd 2003, 10:56 am
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
David Johnstone wrote:
>
> If you want to apply for a visa yourself you need an invitation.
Our situation is complicated by the fact that part of our trip will be
with a university group and part of the trip will be independent travel.
I assume that the travel agency running the group trip will provide
the documentation for the visa for its portion of the trip. However,
they could not vouch for us during our time in Moscow in advance of the
group trip. Therefore, I assume that we will be responsible for getting
the documentation for the four days of independent travel in Moscow.
> (2) You can book a stay at an "official" (hangover from the intourist
> days) hotel - generally they are expensive.
We have hotel reservations at the Marriott Royal hotel for the days
before we join the university group. (With the group, we'll be staying
on board a ship which will take us from Moscow to St. Petersburg.) Is
the Royal an "official" hotel? If so, who needs to be the signatory on
the letter?
> (3) You can buy an invitation from a registered agent - there are
> some on the internet offering invitations from EUR25 or so.
Any recommendations among these agents assuming our hotel is not an
official hotel?
> Then you would need photos, proof of medical insurance, passport
> and completed forms - and send that to the Embassy together with
> a fee. The cheapest service here takes about 4 weeks.
None of this list presents a problem.
I also have the advantage of living a thirty-minute drive away from the
Russian Embassy. I expect to apply for the visa in person, and, if there
is a problem, I'll know on the spot. (Or am I being too optimistic?)
> You have to specify your itenerary, i.e. the areas of Russia where
> you are going to be when.
No problem.
> If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.
> Also you have to register with the authorities
> (OVIR) within 3 working days of arrival They will stamp your visa,
> and failure to have a stamp can cause problems on departure. Some
> hotels can take care of that for you.
Thanks for this most useful information.
Karen Selwyn
>
> If you want to apply for a visa yourself you need an invitation.
Our situation is complicated by the fact that part of our trip will be
with a university group and part of the trip will be independent travel.
I assume that the travel agency running the group trip will provide
the documentation for the visa for its portion of the trip. However,
they could not vouch for us during our time in Moscow in advance of the
group trip. Therefore, I assume that we will be responsible for getting
the documentation for the four days of independent travel in Moscow.
> (2) You can book a stay at an "official" (hangover from the intourist
> days) hotel - generally they are expensive.
We have hotel reservations at the Marriott Royal hotel for the days
before we join the university group. (With the group, we'll be staying
on board a ship which will take us from Moscow to St. Petersburg.) Is
the Royal an "official" hotel? If so, who needs to be the signatory on
the letter?
> (3) You can buy an invitation from a registered agent - there are
> some on the internet offering invitations from EUR25 or so.
Any recommendations among these agents assuming our hotel is not an
official hotel?
> Then you would need photos, proof of medical insurance, passport
> and completed forms - and send that to the Embassy together with
> a fee. The cheapest service here takes about 4 weeks.
None of this list presents a problem.
I also have the advantage of living a thirty-minute drive away from the
Russian Embassy. I expect to apply for the visa in person, and, if there
is a problem, I'll know on the spot. (Or am I being too optimistic?)
> You have to specify your itenerary, i.e. the areas of Russia where
> you are going to be when.
No problem.
> If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.
> Also you have to register with the authorities
> (OVIR) within 3 working days of arrival They will stamp your visa,
> and failure to have a stamp can cause problems on departure. Some
> hotels can take care of that for you.
Thanks for this most useful information.
Karen Selwyn
Dec 2nd 2003, 4:10 pm
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote:
> David Johnstone wrote:
>> If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
> Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.
He means if someone asks to see your documents, and you are in an area not
specified on your visa application, you may have trouble. I'm not sure where
this meaning of "controlled" comes from but it's popular with Germanic
language speakers.
miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/
> David Johnstone wrote:
>> If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
> Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.
He means if someone asks to see your documents, and you are in an area not
specified on your visa application, you may have trouble. I'm not sure where
this meaning of "controlled" comes from but it's popular with Germanic
language speakers.
miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/
Dec 2nd 2003, 4:20 pm
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
?ystein <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
>> would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can have an
>> equivalent experience."
> Try to find out the obstacles involved in getting av US visa for a
> Russian and reevaluate your position afterwards.
I don't see how that's relevant. I am not talking about the experience of a
Russian person trying to visit the USA. I'm sure the paperwork for that is
no fun, but it has nothing to do with the fact that for "many people" almost
everywhere in the world is easier to enter than Russia.
>> While I've never been to Russia personally (only as close as the
>> Baltics), my sense, formed from dealing with Russians in the Baltics and
>> from hearing many, many stories from travelers I know to ordinarily be of
>> good cheer and sunny disposition, is that people are horribly mean, the
>> food is awful, and accomodations/meals of any reasonable standard are
>> very expensive.
> Sounds like theese cheerful and sunny disponated friends of yours,
> aren't as brilliant as cheerful.
Nope, in fact you're wrong here. These are people who have enjoyed
sub-Saharan Africa, rural China, the poorest nations of Latin America, and
many others.
> There is know such thing as a "be nice" culture, so just forget the
> whole idea about it.
I don't understand your English here, but I think you are claiming that
there is no culture in which people are naturally disposed to pleasantness.
And I'd say you're entirely wrong here - there are many.
> There is such a thing as feeling uncertain and alone in many situation
> when you visit a place you don't know, with habbits you don't know and
> speaking a language you don't understand.
Yes, but that's not what's happening in the case of the people I'm talking
about, who are as experienced travelers (or moreso) than me and have no
complaints about unfamiliar languages and cultures.
> Your own cultural background can also trip you into making wrong
> judgement about other people, because you misinterpret their
> behaviour.
This I'll allow. It is entirely possible that there is some fundamental
misconnect between Russian and American/European/African/Asian cultures
where in people I know from the latter have consistently reported the former
to be off-putting, when in fact it's just that people in Russia have
ways of expressing themselves that don't meet expectations.
> Second, if you visit a poor country you will probably experience people
> commuicating that they are hungry and others that obviously are poor
> and/or ill. On the other hand you will probably experience some people
> that are richer than what you are used to at home. What you actually
> experience is called real life, and it is a very useful experience.
Being poor and hungry doesn't have to equate with being nasty. I know this
from ample experience.
>> This is not an appealing reputation. The mean-people issue may not be
>> such a problem in central Russia but in the western cities it seems to
>> discourage a lot of repeat visitors.
> It is fairer to say this is not an appealing way to talk about others.
> First, you talk about something you have no experience with.
And you make entirely incorrect judgments about my friends based on how
closely their opinions accord with yours on a single point.
miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/
> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
>> would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can have an
>> equivalent experience."
> Try to find out the obstacles involved in getting av US visa for a
> Russian and reevaluate your position afterwards.
I don't see how that's relevant. I am not talking about the experience of a
Russian person trying to visit the USA. I'm sure the paperwork for that is
no fun, but it has nothing to do with the fact that for "many people" almost
everywhere in the world is easier to enter than Russia.
>> While I've never been to Russia personally (only as close as the
>> Baltics), my sense, formed from dealing with Russians in the Baltics and
>> from hearing many, many stories from travelers I know to ordinarily be of
>> good cheer and sunny disposition, is that people are horribly mean, the
>> food is awful, and accomodations/meals of any reasonable standard are
>> very expensive.
> Sounds like theese cheerful and sunny disponated friends of yours,
> aren't as brilliant as cheerful.
Nope, in fact you're wrong here. These are people who have enjoyed
sub-Saharan Africa, rural China, the poorest nations of Latin America, and
many others.
> There is know such thing as a "be nice" culture, so just forget the
> whole idea about it.
I don't understand your English here, but I think you are claiming that
there is no culture in which people are naturally disposed to pleasantness.
And I'd say you're entirely wrong here - there are many.
> There is such a thing as feeling uncertain and alone in many situation
> when you visit a place you don't know, with habbits you don't know and
> speaking a language you don't understand.
Yes, but that's not what's happening in the case of the people I'm talking
about, who are as experienced travelers (or moreso) than me and have no
complaints about unfamiliar languages and cultures.
> Your own cultural background can also trip you into making wrong
> judgement about other people, because you misinterpret their
> behaviour.
This I'll allow. It is entirely possible that there is some fundamental
misconnect between Russian and American/European/African/Asian cultures
where in people I know from the latter have consistently reported the former
to be off-putting, when in fact it's just that people in Russia have
ways of expressing themselves that don't meet expectations.
> Second, if you visit a poor country you will probably experience people
> commuicating that they are hungry and others that obviously are poor
> and/or ill. On the other hand you will probably experience some people
> that are richer than what you are used to at home. What you actually
> experience is called real life, and it is a very useful experience.
Being poor and hungry doesn't have to equate with being nasty. I know this
from ample experience.
>> This is not an appealing reputation. The mean-people issue may not be
>> such a problem in central Russia but in the western cities it seems to
>> discourage a lot of repeat visitors.
> It is fairer to say this is not an appealing way to talk about others.
> First, you talk about something you have no experience with.
And you make entirely incorrect judgments about my friends based on how
closely their opinions accord with yours on a single point.
miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/
Dec 2nd 2003, 5:47 pm
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
[email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Dmitrij <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
>
> The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
> would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can have an
> equivalent experience."
>
> While I've never been to Russia personally (only as close as the Baltics),
> my sense, formed from dealing with Russians in the Baltics and from hearing
> many, many stories from travelers I know to ordinarily be of good cheer and
> sunny disposition, is that people are horribly mean,
No, people are not generally "horribly mean", although of course you
can come across examples of that, as you can anywhere else. What you
do find generally, is that there is a cultural difference between east
and west in the degree of superficial friendliness expected by
customers in shops, banks, etc. In all western countries, the custom
is to smile, exchange greetings, and in general pretend as if you are
exceedingly happy to meet this particular customer. In Russia, there
is no tradition of going through such silly charades just because some
total stranger wants to buy a hot dog or change $100 into roubles.
Instead, they save their friendliness for more appropriate situations.
Once you get used to this difference, you will start noticing that the
quality of service that you get is approximately the same, and you
will perhaps even realize that this is what actually matters. Perhaps
you will even, like me, start getting annoyed when, back in the west,
beeing greated with a pointless "How are you today?" in the grocery
store by some complete stranger whose job it is to simply receive your
payment and give you a receipt.
> the food is awful,
Only if you're eating in the wrong places. I would think too, that
american food is awful, if I went on a US tour and ate only at
McDonalds - the american variant of the old Soviet pilminiye shop!
Björn
> Dmitrij <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Why don't people travel at the Ural region (central part of Russia)?
>
> The visa situation is a huge obstacle right out of the gate. Many people
> would just say "forget it, I'll go somewhere else where I can have an
> equivalent experience."
>
> While I've never been to Russia personally (only as close as the Baltics),
> my sense, formed from dealing with Russians in the Baltics and from hearing
> many, many stories from travelers I know to ordinarily be of good cheer and
> sunny disposition, is that people are horribly mean,
No, people are not generally "horribly mean", although of course you
can come across examples of that, as you can anywhere else. What you
do find generally, is that there is a cultural difference between east
and west in the degree of superficial friendliness expected by
customers in shops, banks, etc. In all western countries, the custom
is to smile, exchange greetings, and in general pretend as if you are
exceedingly happy to meet this particular customer. In Russia, there
is no tradition of going through such silly charades just because some
total stranger wants to buy a hot dog or change $100 into roubles.
Instead, they save their friendliness for more appropriate situations.
Once you get used to this difference, you will start noticing that the
quality of service that you get is approximately the same, and you
will perhaps even realize that this is what actually matters. Perhaps
you will even, like me, start getting annoyed when, back in the west,
beeing greated with a pointless "How are you today?" in the grocery
store by some complete stranger whose job it is to simply receive your
payment and give you a receipt.
> the food is awful,
Only if you're eating in the wrong places. I would think too, that
american food is awful, if I went on a US tour and ate only at
McDonalds - the american variant of the old Soviet pilminiye shop!
Björn
Dec 2nd 2003, 7:48 pm
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Miguel Cruz writes:
> I'm not sure where this meaning of "controlled" comes
> from but it's popular with Germanic language speakers.
At least in French, "controler" means "to inspect," and not "to
control." I assume that Germanic languages are getting the word from
French, so "controlled" to them means "checked or inspected."
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> I'm not sure where this meaning of "controlled" comes
> from but it's popular with Germanic language speakers.
At least in French, "controler" means "to inspect," and not "to
control." I assume that Germanic languages are getting the word from
French, so "controlled" to them means "checked or inspected."
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Dec 2nd 2003, 8:22 pm
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
[email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> When you arrive you need to register the visa. This is
> normally handled by the hotel or tour operator. Believe me, you are
> not interested in doing this yourself.
The hotel may charge a small fee (something like $1-2). In that case,
just pay the fee and consider yourself very lucky that you do not have
to handle it yourself.
Bjorn
> When you arrive you need to register the visa. This is
> normally handled by the hotel or tour operator. Believe me, you are
> not interested in doing this yourself.
The hotel may charge a small fee (something like $1-2). In that case,
just pay the fee and consider yourself very lucky that you do not have
to handle it yourself.
Bjorn
Dec 2nd 2003, 9:06 pm
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 05:10:24 GMT, [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote:
>> David Johnstone wrote:
>>> If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
>> Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.
>He means if someone asks to see your documents, and you are in an area not
>specified on your visa application, you may have trouble. I'm not sure where
>this meaning of "controlled" comes from but it's popular with Germanic
>language speakers.
"Control" = a linguistic false friend.
It's a mistranslation of "check".
(After all, we do go through Passport Control at airports/border
crossings even in English)
>Karen Selwyn <[email protected]> wrote:
>> David Johnstone wrote:
>>> If you get controlled somewhere else, you can have problems.
>> Could you please explain what you mean by this statement? Thanks.
>He means if someone asks to see your documents, and you are in an area not
>specified on your visa application, you may have trouble. I'm not sure where
>this meaning of "controlled" comes from but it's popular with Germanic
>language speakers.
"Control" = a linguistic false friend.
It's a mistranslation of "check".
(After all, we do go through Passport Control at airports/border
crossings even in English)
Dec 2nd 2003, 9:19 pm
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Why don't people travel
Bjorn Olsson <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> horribly mean
> Once you get used to this difference, you will start noticing that the
> quality of service that you get is approximately the same, and you
> will perhaps even realize that this is what actually matters. Perhaps
> you will even, like me, start getting annoyed when, back in the west,
> beeing greated with a pointless "How are you today?" in the grocery
> store by some complete stranger whose job it is to simply receive your
> payment and give you a receipt.
I lived in New York for years and loved it. I don't have any need for long
smiles and empty chatter from grocery clerks.
My experiences with Russian bureaucrats have gone many steps beyond this
simple dispensation with empty social ritual, past the line of explicit and
clearly intentional mendacity.
miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/
> [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:
>> horribly mean
> Once you get used to this difference, you will start noticing that the
> quality of service that you get is approximately the same, and you
> will perhaps even realize that this is what actually matters. Perhaps
> you will even, like me, start getting annoyed when, back in the west,
> beeing greated with a pointless "How are you today?" in the grocery
> store by some complete stranger whose job it is to simply receive your
> payment and give you a receipt.
I lived in New York for years and loved it. I don't have any need for long
smiles and empty chatter from grocery clerks.
My experiences with Russian bureaucrats have gone many steps beyond this
simple dispensation with empty social ritual, past the line of explicit and
clearly intentional mendacity.
miguel
--
See the world from your web browser: http://travel.u.nu/
