Tim Kroesen

Why would carrying any argument to the nth degree be logical for every
subject and instance?

Fine; so you set the speed limit to a level that when following at a
safe and prudent distance (car length per 10 mph), will allow all motor
vehicles that meet allowable vehicle performance mandates/standards for
road use, to stop safely. 'Tailgating' penalties should be as rigidly
enforced as speed limits!

Lose enough 'penalty' points and you lose your privilege...Getting the
nuts off the road is the 'safest' thing we can do for everyone.

Tim K

"Keith Willshaw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Tim Kroesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > There are many factors to road fatalities...
    > >
    > > I don't see how setting a unified car and truck speed limit on
German
    > > Autobahns will make them less safe however.
    > That part is well understood, the name of the phenemona is
    > bunching, essentially you get dense packets of traffic moving
    > at approx the same speed but the vehicles within that packet
    > have radically different braking and handling characteristics.
    > When something goes wrong the result is carnage
    > > Why should a select few
    > > with enough car and gas cash to go faster than a reasonable limit
    > > imposed for the safety of all. Driving is a privilege and all have
a
    > > right to the safest driving environment possible even if Laws must
be
    > > made to restrict, and penalize those that disregard the safety of
    > > others...
    > >
    > The logical outcome of that argument is a speed limit of 0 kph
    > and no accidents at all, this being the safest possible driving
    > environment.
    > Keith

Miguel Cruz

Tim Kroesen <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Pan" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> The Post should do more stories on the crazy and reckless drivers on the
    >> Washington DC roads instead of talking about the Autobahn. The idiots
    >> who tailgate on the beltway doing 90 mph causing accidents galore are
    >> more of a problem to the Post readers than this guy.
    > It has been thoroughly proven that traffic traveling at *widely
    > different* speeds on the same road does produce more accidents. You
    > cannot 'tailgate' another car without matching it's speed

The tailgaters in question approach at 90, then brake to 75 and tailgate
someone, then suddenly pass on the right at 90 again, often just when the
person doing 75 saw an opening and tried to move to the right to let the
tailgater pass.

miguel
--
Hundreds of travel photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu/

Tim Kroesen

I hate that shit above all to.

Those reckless drivers should have their testicles roasted by the flames
of their drivers licenses!

Tim K

"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
    > Tim Kroesen <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > "Pan" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> The Post should do more stories on the crazy and reckless drivers
on the
    > >> Washington DC roads instead of talking about the Autobahn. The
idiots
    > >> who tailgate on the beltway doing 90 mph causing accidents galore
are
    > >> more of a problem to the Post readers than this guy.
    > >
    > > It has been thoroughly proven that traffic traveling at *widely
    > > different* speeds on the same road does produce more accidents. You
    > > cannot 'tailgate' another car without matching it's speed
    > The tailgaters in question approach at 90, then brake to 75 and
tailgate
    > someone, then suddenly pass on the right at 90 again, often just when
the
    > person doing 75 saw an opening and tried to move to the right to let
the
    > tailgater pass.
    > miguel
    > --
    > Hundreds of travel photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu/

Devil

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:58:29 +0000, Tim Kroesen wrote:

    > Never miss an opportunity to put down America, eh... How one track
    > minded you are!
    >
    > But you don't address the question I proposed in this thread regarding
    > *German* drivers...
    >
    > Tim K
    >
    > "sascha" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> "Tim Kroesen" wrote
    >> > ... I'm surprised Germany has such unlimited fuel supply and
    > pollution
    >> > tolerance to allow 'unlimited' highway speeds...
    >> >
    >> > In the US speed limits were reduced on interstates to save fuel
    >> > nationally.
    >> Oh, that apparently compensates for driving gas guzzlers like the
    > SUV's.
    >> I'm impressed, how smart.


I don't particularly approve of pissing contests.

But to be fair, in this instance, I think you were the one who started.
Or if you want an alternate explanation, there was no pissing contrest
until you decided to take the answer as such. But then, your own article
already was too.

Kind of pot, kettle.

Devil

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 00:24:06 +0100, Wolfgang Barth wrote:

    > Wolfgang Barth schrieb:
    >
    >> True. But on the other side this year in Germany we had the LOWEST count
    >> of fatal car accidents since 50 years!
    >
    > Just had a look at the statistics which is quite interesting.
    > In Germany there are 11.9 dead of 100000 population per year.
    > In the US this number is 15.9 dead.
    > (This is based on the year 1999 because I didn't find newer figures.)
    >
    > Maybe someone has newer data.


These data look about right. But possibly somewhat misleading. I
suspect that in the larger scheme of things, both the US and Germany are
relatively safe places to drive.

One issue with the figures above is that, in North America, there are
more cars per people, and they more likely drive longer distances. For a
bunch of reasons, related to size of the country, population density,
lifestyle, price of fuel, and probably some more.

Miguel Cruz

Tim Kroesen <[email protected]> wrote:
    > "Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> The tailgaters in question approach at 90, then brake to 75 and tailgate
    >> someone, then suddenly pass on the right at 90 again, often just when the
    >> person doing 75 saw an opening and tried to move to the right to let the
    >> tailgater pass.

    > I hate that shit above all to.
    > Those reckless drivers should have their testicles roasted by the flames
    > of their drivers licenses!

Every once in a while they show up at the side of the road later on, either
pulled over by a trooper or crashed in a ditch.

While I don't want to see anyone in an accident, it's hard to be overwhelmed
with sympathy.

miguel
--
Hundreds of travel photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu/

Tim Kroesen

I love it when we agree! It's such a rarified experience...

Tim K

"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Tim Kroesen <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > "Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> The tailgaters in question approach at 90, then brake to 75 and
tailgate
    > >> someone, then suddenly pass on the right at 90 again, often just
when the
    > >> person doing 75 saw an opening and tried to move to the right to
let the
    > >> tailgater pass.
    > > I hate that shit above all to.
    > >
    > > Those reckless drivers should have their testicles roasted by the
flames
    > > of their drivers licenses!
    > Every once in a while they show up at the side of the road later on,
either
    > pulled over by a trooper or crashed in a ditch.
    > While I don't want to see anyone in an accident, it's hard to be
overwhelmed
    > with sympathy.
    > miguel
    > --
    > Hundreds of travel photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu/

Wolfgang Barth

devil schrieb:

    >>In Germany there are 11.9 dead of 100000 population per year.
    >>In the US this number is 15.9 dead.
    >>(This is based on the year 1999 because I didn't find newer figures.)
> These data look about right. But possibly somewhat misleading. I
    > suspect that in the larger scheme of things, both the US and Germany are
    > relatively safe places to drive.
    >
    > One issue with the figures above is that, in North America, there are
    > more cars per people, and they more likely drive longer distances. For a
    > bunch of reasons, related to size of the country, population density,
    > lifestyle, price of fuel, and probably some more.
    >
True. But what I wanted to show is that the unlimited speed on the
autobahn in fact is NOT forcing our count of fatal accidents up.

I've read also that several US states (Montana? ...) also don't have
speed limits on highways any more.

No dout that more "homogenous" speed for all has a positive effect on
security on the streets.

Wolfgang

Keith Willshaw

"Tim Kroesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Why would carrying any argument to the nth degree be logical for every
    > subject and instance?

It isnt , but it shows that a statement that safety is the only thing that
matters is patently false. Policy in this area is a compromise between
safety, cost and convenience.

    > Fine; so you set the speed limit to a level that when following at a
    > safe and prudent distance (car length per 10 mph), will allow all motor
    > vehicles that meet allowable vehicle performance mandates/standards for
    > road use, to stop safely. 'Tailgating' penalties should be as rigidly
    > enforced as speed limits!

Something that is a nice idea but totally unenforceable. Experience
has shown that speed limits are hard to make stick even using
cameras unless motorists buy into them as reasonable and appropriate.
Enforcing traffic seperation would require either thousands of policemen
or millions of sophisticated surveillance devices capable of integrating
speed and separation distance and automatically tracking vehicle ID's

Neither solution appears to be politically acceptable in a free
society.

    > Lose enough 'penalty' points and you lose your privilege...Getting the
    > nuts off the road is the 'safest' thing we can do for everyone.

Easier said than done.

Keith

R J Carpenter

"Tim Kroesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > ... I'm surprised Germany has such unlimited fuel supply and pollution
    > tolerance to allow 'unlimited' highway speeds...
    > In the US speed limits were reduced on interstates to save fuel
    > nationally.

That was decades ago, the 1970s oil problem. AFAIK, the limits have been
increased to essentially pre-1970 values. In my state most Interstates were
only raised back to 65, not 70. The state police have recently said the
AVERAGE speed on these roads is 75 and are suggesting increasing the limit
and then actually enforcing it.

And surely one can't ignore the fact that half of the "cars" sold in the USA
are pickups or SUVs, not known for good fuel economy.

I should imagine that you'll find that the average German car, driven at
whatever speed on the Autobahn, will have better fuel economy than the
average US vehicle driven at our Interstate speeds.

Footnote: I'm a slow driver, so I bring down the average US speed.

R J Carpenter

    > > "Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >> The tailgaters in question approach at 90, then brake to 75 and
tailgate
    > >> someone, then suddenly pass on the right at 90 again, often just when
the
    > >> person doing 75 saw an opening and tried to move to the right to let
the
    > >> tailgater pass.

I'd imagine that they contribute to the thrice-a-week truck accident on the
Beltway. Not that the trucks are driven all that conservatively either.

Olivers

Wolfgang Barth muttered....

    > Wolfgang Barth schrieb:
    >
    >> True. But on the other side this year in Germany we had the LOWEST
    >> count of fatal car accidents since 50 years!
    >
    > Just had a look at the statistics which is quite interesting.
    > In Germany there are 11.9 dead of 100000 population per year.
    > In the US this number is 15.9 dead.
    > (This is based on the year 1999 because I didn't find newer figures.)
    >

Like all stats, the numbers are meaningless unless framed by the parameters
from which they are extracted.

A. The number of vehicles per 100,000 people is substantially higher in
the US. Using that modifier, driving in the US may actually be safer than
in german.

B. The "miles per vehicle" (passenger miles if we deal only with passenger
cars) is substantially higher in the US. Again, unless the statistical
comparisons are from an equal base, US driving may be (a) as safe, (b)
safer, or even (c) much safer.

I'd be intersted in the rate of serious injuries per reported accident as
an interesting comparison.

TMO

Devil

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:52:40 +0100, Wolfgang Barth wrote:

    > devil schrieb:
    >
    >>>In Germany there are 11.9 dead of 100000 population per year.
    >>>In the US this number is 15.9 dead.
    >>>(This is based on the year 1999 because I didn't find newer figures.)
    > > These data look about right. But possibly somewhat misleading. I
    >> suspect that in the larger scheme of things, both the US and Germany are
    >> relatively safe places to drive.
    >>
    >> One issue with the figures above is that, in North America, there are
    >> more cars per people, and they more likely drive longer distances. For a
    >> bunch of reasons, related to size of the country, population density,
    >> lifestyle, price of fuel, and probably some more.
    >>
    > True. But what I wanted to show is that the unlimited speed on the
    > autobahn in fact is NOT forcing our count of fatal accidents up.
    >
    > I've read also that several US states (Montana? ...) also don't have
    > speed limits on highways any more.

Moving West, you see the limits moving up progressively. I seem to
remember a time when there were no limits in Montana, but when I drove
through on my way home, back in 2000, I don't recall any single road
without a (fairly generous) limit.

    > No dout that more "homogenous" speed for all has a positive effect on
    > security on the streets.

It's more complicated than that. There are issues of driving style and
behavior at play too. Which is why the bulk of the comparisons I have
seen here are flawed one way or another. Most folks generalizing on the
basis of their experience at home, who have no idea of the differences.

One consequence of relatively low limits is that lane discipline goes
away. Not just in America, BTW. Go to Holland for instance, with fairly
congested freeways and a painfully low speed limit. You end up with a
bunch of folks who consider it perfectly all right to drive 5-10 km/h
below the speed limit in the fast lane, even if the right one is empty. A
real pain in the butt if you ask me. Not necessarily safer either.

Miguel Cruz

Wolfgang Barth <[email protected]> wrote:
    > I've read also that several US states (Montana? ...) also don't have
    > speed limits on highways any more.

Just Montana. But they reinstated the speed limit after their highway
fatalities shot up in its absence.

miguel
--
Hundreds of travel photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu/

Bb

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:30:06 GMT, Miguel Cruz wrote:
    > Wolfgang Barth <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> I've read also that several US states (Montana? ...) also don't have
    >> speed limits on highways any more.
    >
    > Just Montana. But they reinstated the speed limit after their highway
    > fatalities shot up in its absence.

AFAIK, it also was influenced by the federal government refusing to
provide highway funds to them until speed limits were set (and enforced).

--
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