Nancy Kay

In article ,
"Daryl" wrote:

    > Is this technically correct? Does "over age 16" really mean 17 or above?
    > Or does 16 years, 1 day qualify as "over age 16"? You'd think they could be
    > a little clearer here -- either say 16 or older, or 17 or older.

If it has the 2000 expiration date it has expired. Don't mess around
with little technical things. Get it done now so you will have it in
time for your trip. You are entering one the busier times for passports.
Everyone who needs one for summer travel will be applying soon or now.
--
Nancy Kay
remove go and gone.to.
"Patience is a virtue"

Greg Byshenk

[email protected] wrote:
    > greg byshenk wrote:

    > >You already have a passport, so quite plainly you will _not_ "have to
    > >apply for a completely new one".

    > An expired passport is the same as having NO passport at all, if it
    > can not be renewed. As the OP indicated there is a difference in the
    > fees charged for a renewal that makes it more economical to renew
    > rather than apply for a _new_ passport. I recently obtained a "new"
    > US Passport even though I had one that had expired.

I'm not quite sure what the 'if' in the first sentence is supposed to
mean. One can normally renew a passport that has expired. From the
State Department's web site, the primary rules are:

# Already have a passport that is not damaged; and
# Received it within the past 15 years; and
# Were over age 16 when it was issued; and
# Still have the same name as in passport (or you can legally
document your name change).

These are the rules for renewing by mail -- but they are the most
stringent ones. Which means that, unless your situation is in some
way out of the ordinary (eg: damaged passport, name change, or the
passport is _long_ expired), then it is not necessary to apply for a
'new' passport (as opposed to a renewal of the old).


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

Espar R?Ggli

On 21/1/03 10:07, in article [email protected],
"greg byshenk" wrote:

    >> An expired passport is the same as having NO passport at all, if it
    >> can not be renewed. As the OP indicated there is a difference in the
    >> fees charged for a renewal that makes it more economical to renew
    >> rather than apply for a _new_ passport. I recently obtained a "new"
    >> US Passport even though I had one that had expired.

There's a pedantic confusion here.

Passports cannot literally be renewed, as they could be once upon a time.
They are replaced with a new passport, and the old one cancelled.

If a passport is expired more than five years (i.e., if the prior passport
was issued 15 or more years ago) State Dept. security practice is to
investigate the nationality of the holder all over again, so additional
documents are asked for, extra checks made.

Only in extremis is renewal of a passport made, because the US Government
has agreements with many countries to accept its nationals back with a
passport that is expired less than six months. Without such an agreement,
most countries will not admit/give a visa to a person whose passport has
less than six months to run (obviously: that person could not be deported
without replacing or renewing the passport).

So: those who want to "renew" their passports now need to buy new digitized
passports.

It's not just the US doing this. Switzerland and many other European
countries are going the digitized route to combat fraud, and to assure that
the passports are machine-readable.

It also justifies the heavy fines levied on airlines when they board someone
who does not have valid documents for the flight.

Hatunen

On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:42:57 +0000, Espar R?ggli
wrote:


    >Only in extremis is renewal of a passport made, because the US Government
    >has agreements with many countries to accept its nationals back with a
    >passport that is expired less than six months. Without such an agreement,
    >most countries will not admit/give a visa to a person whose passport has
    >less than six months to run (obviously: that person could not be deported
    >without replacing or renewing the passport).

I'm confused by this. The US government cannot refuse to allow me to
re-enter the USA even if I have no passport at all. Of course, they
can delay me quite a while while they determine my true citizenship,
but they cannnot refuse me.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Greg Byshenk

Espar Rüggli wrote:
    > "greg byshenk" wrote:

    > >> An expired passport is the same as having NO passport at all, if it
    > >> can not be renewed. As the OP indicated there is a difference in the
    > >> fees charged for a renewal that makes it more economical to renew
    > >> rather than apply for a _new_ passport. I recently obtained a "new"
    > >> US Passport even though I had one that had expired.

    > There's a pedantic confusion here.

    > Passports cannot literally be renewed, as they could be once upon a time.
    > They are replaced with a new passport, and the old one cancelled.

Well, yes, naturally. I don't recall a time when one could truly
'renew' a passport -- that is, have some magic performed which
caused the same physical passport to be extended in validity (no
doubt such a time did exist).

When one 'renews' a passport, one gets a new passport -- but without
going through the entire application process. It is the same when
one 'renews' a driving license, residence permit, etc. (at least in
all of those cases with which I am familiar).


    > If a passport is expired more than five years (i.e., if the prior passport
    > was issued 15 or more years ago) State Dept. security practice is to
    > investigate the nationality of the holder all over again, so additional
    > documents are asked for, extra checks made.

And this is precisely the difference between 'renewal' and 're-
application'.

[...]

    > So: those who want to "renew" their passports now need to buy new digitized
    > passports.

No, they just 'renew' their passport in the normal way, and get a
"new digitized passport" as their new passport. This is no different
than when I last 'renewed' my passport, and received a new one,
slightly different than the last (not as different as the newest, I
think, but still different and with additional security features in
comparison to the original).

[...]

    > It also justifies the heavy fines levied on airlines when they board someone
    > who does not have valid documents for the flight.

FWIW, I don't see how this relates at all to the previous.


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

S Viemeister

greg byshenk wrote:
    >
    > Espar Rüggli wrote:
    > > Passports cannot literally be renewed, as they could be once upon a time.
    > > They are replaced with a new passport, and the old one cancelled.

    > Well, yes, naturally. I don't recall a time when one could truly
    > 'renew' a passport -- that is, have some magic performed which
    > caused the same physical passport to be extended in validity (no
    > doubt such a time did exist).
    >
The first passport I remember applying for (I don't remember the documents
used when I was an infant), was valid for two years, and could be renewed
for a further two years. After that, I required a new passport. Later
passports were valid for 5 years, with no renewal. Current ones, of
course, are valid for 10 years.

Erilar

In article , [email protected]
(Hatunen) wrote:

    > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:42:57 +0000, Espar R?ggli
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    > >Only in extremis is renewal of a passport made, because the US Government
    > >has agreements with many countries to accept its nationals back with a
    > >passport that is expired less than six months. Without such an agreement,
    > >most countries will not admit/give a visa to a person whose passport has
    > >less than six months to run (obviously: that person could not be deported
    > >without replacing or renewing the passport).
    >
    > I'm confused by this. The US government cannot refuse to allow me to
    > re-enter the USA even if I have no passport at all. Of course, they
    > can delay me quite a while while they determine my true citizenship,
    > but they cannnot refuse me.
    >
    >

All of which reminds me once more of my experiences with getting into a
country: it takes longest to get back into the US, of which I am a
citizen.

--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)


Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

C Bremtzq

On 20/1/03 16:50, in article [email protected],
"Jenn" wrote:

    > not so -- renewals are when you have an expiring passport and get a new
    > one -- you don't apply for a new one, you send in your old one and get a
    > renewal

You are perhaps not aware that until sometime after 1962 (when the current
smaller US passport was created) passports were valid for three years and
could be renewed for two with a rubber stamp and seal. That was a true
"renewal". It is still possible, in emergency, to get a passport letter or
waiver; and the US will re-admit its nationals for six years after
expiration of a passport.

You may wish to characterize issuance of a new passport to replace an
expired or expiring one as a "renewal", but that confuses the issue.

Once a passport has been expired five years, an anti-fraud provision comes
into force, by which only the State Department can approve issuance, and
original supporting documents are required. Similarly, if a foreign birth to
US citizen(s) is not reported within five years, its registration is subject
to State Department approval.

Stephen C. Gallagher

    > You are perhaps not aware that until sometime after 1962 (when the current
    > smaller US passport was created) passports were valid for three years and
    > could be renewed for two with a rubber stamp and seal. That was a true
    > "renewal". It is still possible, in emergency, to get a passport letter or
    > waiver; and the US will re-admit its nationals for six years after
    > expiration of a passport.
    > You may wish to characterize issuance of a new passport to replace an
    > expired or expiring one as a "renewal", but that confuses the issue.

What you state is true, US passports in the 1960s were issued for
three years and could be renewed for two more years by having a
stamp placed in them, to extend the validity.

Since that does not happen nowadays, the term renewal is used
to indicate the issuance of a new passport, after a previously
issued one has expired, and where no supporting documentation
(proof of citizenship or identity) is required other than
the presentation of the expired passport.

Evelynvogtgamble

C Bremtzq wrote:
    >
    > On 20/1/03 16:50, in article [email protected],
    > "Jenn" wrote:
    >
    > > not so -- renewals are when you have an expiring passport and get a new
    > > one -- you don't apply for a new one, you send in your old one and get a
    > > renewal

    > You may wish to characterize issuance of a new passport to replace an
    > expired or expiring one as a "renewal", but that confuses the issue.

Since all but literal minded purists like yourself use the term
"renewal" that way, what "issue" does it confuse?

Greg Byshenk

EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
    > C Bremtzq wrote:
    > > "Jenn" wrote:

    > > > not so -- renewals are when you have an expiring passport and get a new
    > > > one -- you don't apply for a new one, you send in your old one and get a
    > > > renewal

    > > You may wish to characterize issuance of a new passport to replace an
    > > expired or expiring one as a "renewal", but that confuses the issue.

    > Since all but literal minded purists like yourself use the term
    > "renewal" that way, what "issue" does it confuse?

Particularly given that the other possible meaning is one that
describes a situation that can no longer obtain (at least with
regard to US passports).


--
greg byshenk - [email protected] - Leiden, NL
hate spam?

Todd

I think the 5 year expiration is correct. I was issued my first passport in
1989, at age 17. It also expired in 5 years. My current passport is good
for 10 years. I think if you're a minor, under age 18 in the U.S., you get
a 5 year passport. At least that's what I recall without verifying.

Todd

Erilar

In article , "Todd"
wrote:

    > I think the 5 year expiration is correct. I was issued my first passport
    > in
    > 1989, at age 17. It also expired in 5 years. My current passport is
    > good
    > for 10 years. I think if you're a minor, under age 18 in the U.S., you
    > get
    > a 5 year passport. At least that's what I recall without verifying.
    >

That's what my teenage students got for our trips to Germany, while mine
was for ten years at the same time.

--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)


Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

Philip

"Daryl" wrote in message news:...
    > "C Bremtzq" wrote in message
    > news:BA51D8B2.1EBA5%[email protected]...
    > > On 20/1/03 16:39, in article [email protected], "Daryl"
    > >
    > > 2. You may have been under 16 when the passport was applied for.
    >
    > This is absolutely true -- I was under 16 when I applied. However, from what
    > I can tell the important question is not when it was APPLIED for, but when
    > it was ISSUED. According to http://travel.state.gov/ppt_faq.html#valid :
    >
    > If you were 16 or Older when the passport was -issued-, then the passport is
    > valid for 10 years. It says nothing about when it was applied for.

Daryl -

There is a windows between ages 16 and 18 (based on issue date stamped
on the passport) when the US Passport Agency issues an adult passport
that is only valid for 5 years - you apparently fell into that window
- therefore the passport issued to you was issued correctly and has
expired. To obtain a new passport for your trip, you can renew the
passport you have by following the instructions on a State Dept form
called a DS-82 (you can download it off the State Dept website or go
to a local Post Office and pick one up). It's pretty simple and
you'll get a new passport back in a couple of weeks. That passport
will be good for 10 years.

Good Luck!

Philip
http://www.passportsandvisas.com