Hans-Joachim Zierke

Graeme Wall schrieb:


    > Mallard actually has a recording speedo fitted, the maximum speed recorded
    > was 125 mph, the same as the German record except for a very brief peak of
    > 126.4 on the chart

...in a slight descent...

    > which enabled the LNER to claim the record. The tests
    > were actually brake trials which made a good cover for the world record
    > attempt.

The actual function of the German record run was much worse.


hajo

Graeme Wall

In message
[email protected] (Jon Bell) wrote:

    > In article , Graeme Wall
    > wrote:
    > >
    > > If you are going to be in Paris at the end of May then there is going to
    > > be a major exhibition of trains in the Champs Elysses culminating in
    > > running a train along the road on Sunday 1st June. See you there!
    >
    > Are they going to lay down temporary tracks, or piggyback the trains on
    > rubber-tired trailers?
    >

They are, apparently, going to lay a temporary track overnight.

--
Graeme Wall
Transport Miscellany at

Yves Dessaux

Hello

Forrest a écrit :

    > "Helen Rose" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > My husband and I plan to be in Europe next month for a few days, based
    > > out of Paris. We love train museums (and transport museums in
    > > general).
    > There is an automobile museum at Mulhouse in France.
    > "The collection at Mulhouse's Automobile Museum features approximately 500
    > vehicles dating back as far as 1878. The collection includes Mercedes,
    > Porsche, Ferrari, Rolls-Royce and other brands."

Quite a nice museum. The Schlumpf collection of antiques cars, remarkably
preserved, is great. And as said by G. Wall, the national railway museum in
Mulhouse is not far away and definitely worth a visit. As Mulhouse is not a nice
city (it sufferred a lot from destruction during war), may I suggest that you
find a nice hotel in Colmar, a beautiful city not far away from Mulhouse. Train
on the line are not TGV but some are "V200", i.e. conventioanl trains adapted
for travelling at 200 kmh.

In Paris, the Paris museum of urban tranportation, which had bus, street cars,
tube cars and engines was quite interesting. I think that it may be closed for
renovation, till works are competed at another spot near Paris. Their site can
be visited meanwhile at: http://www.cnam.fr/hebergement/amtuir/ (french only as
it appears).

Other links of interest:
http://www.collection-schlumpf.com/schlumpf/
http://pierreg.free.fr/museechf/index.htm

Cheers,

Yves

Graeme Wall

In message
Hans-Joachim Zierke wrote:

[snip]
    >
    > The actual function of the German record run was much worse.
    >

In what way? I don't knoww very much about the German run.

--
Graeme Wall
Transport Miscellany at

Arwel Parry

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
    >In message
    > [email protected] (Jon Bell) wrote:
    >> In article , Graeme Wall
    >> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > If you are going to be in Paris at the end of May then there is going to
    >> > be a major exhibition of trains in the Champs Elysses culminating in
    >> > running a train along the road on Sunday 1st June. See you there!
    >> Are they going to lay down temporary tracks, or piggyback the trains on
    >> rubber-tired trailers?
    >They are, apparently, going to lay a temporary track overnight.

I have to admit that when I saw this in the April edition of "Todays
Railways" I did check the date, and not completely believe it!

--
Arwel Parry
http://www.cartref.demon.co.uk/

Jon Bell

In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
    >In message
    > [email protected] (Jon Bell) wrote:
    >> In article , Graeme Wall
    >> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > If you are going to be in Paris at the end of May then there is going to
    >> > be a major exhibition of trains in the Champs Elysses culminating in
    >> > running a train along the road on Sunday 1st June. See you there!
    >>
    >> Are they going to lay down temporary tracks, or piggyback the trains on
    >> rubber-tired trailers?
    >>
    >They are, apparently, going to lay a temporary track overnight.

I just found in my e-mail the following message from someone at SNCF:

    | Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:50:16 +0200
    | From: Manuel Gratias
    | To: [email protected]
    | Subject: Re: Train/Transport museums in Europe
    |
    | Hello
    | I work for SNCF and this operation called "Le Train Capitale" will take
    | place on the Champs-Elysées from may 17th to june 15th. Real track will
    | be laid and many trains will be shown ; from 1844 St Pierre steam
    | locomotive to new prototype trains. On june 1st, a train will be rolling
    | on the avenue and 150 railroad employees will walk with it. I think I
    | will be there for this exeptional event.
    | Manuel
    |
    | PS : I can't post from my office so you may post my answer if you
    | wish...

(Merci, Manuel :-)

And now that I have the name of the event, a Google search quickly found
which has a section in English.

Hmmm, maybe I can talk my wife into making a side-trip to Paris when we
visit Germany...

--
Jon Bell Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA

Mark Brader

Graeme Wall writes:
    > If you are going to be in Paris at the end of May then there is going to
    > be a major exhibition of trains in the Champs Elysses culminating in
    > running a train along the road on Sunday 1st June. See you there!

From the web site cited later in the thread ,
the exhibition runs for four weeks -- Saturday, May 17, to Sunday, June 15
-- and includes an impressive number of vehicles, listed on the web site.
It will be all along the eastern section of the Avenue des Champs-Elysees,
where it runs through parkland, from the Place de la Concorde to the Rond-
Point des Champs-Elysees.

The train running on temporary track along the road will only operate for
one day, as Graeme said. It will run along the same section of the street
but will continue as far west as Avenue Georges V. And yes, it will be
open for the public to ride on -- but somehow I imagine that a very long
wait will be required!
--
Mark Brader "Sixty years old and still pulling a train!
Toronto That's more than I can say about most
[email protected] people I know." -- Frimbo

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Hans-Joachim Zierke

f'up

Graeme Wall schrieb:


    > In what way? I don't knoww very much about the German run.

The record run has had very special passengers, and very special discussion
topics for those passengers.

Until 1936, the Reichsbahn wasn't a part of the Nazi system. Hitler's hobby
was motorways, and the Reichsbahn was forced to build these motorways (with
railroad money), which did not create the best relationship. On the other
hand, the Reichsbahn developed the most modern traffic system, better
suited to competition with a car on a motorway than any other railroad. On
several routes, the timetable of those Ftd trains isn't matched even today,
and while in the USA, successful Zephyrs were usually replaced by
conventional trains, those Ftd's were fitted with Scharfenberg couplers
instead, and ran in multiple. (A network with 100 mph DMUs, connected in
multiple to traffic demand by Scharfenberg couplers, might not sound too
unfamiliar a concept even in 2003.) The Nazis had contributed nothing to
the success of the system, and as you will know, the planning for a new
railroad system predates its success by several years.


In May 1936, the Reichsbahn invited special guests to special presentation
runs. From Berlin, the Henschel-Wegmann steam streamliner was used to
Stendal, then a dieselelectric fast DMU to Hannover, then the Doble steam
car to Bremen, a dieselhydraulic fast DMU to Hamburg, and finally, a
streamlined 05 with new conventional cars back to Berlin. This fitted
convenienty into one workday.

There were two runs, one on May 9th, one on May 11th. The guest lists
weren't published back then. The first run was attended by officers of
Navy, Air Force, Army, and military logistics, plus several judges. Many
generals and admirals, including poeple like Raeder or Fromm. On the side
of the railroad, the leading figures of the group "Landesverteidigung"
attended almost completely.

The second run, on May 11th, was attended by passengers from the SS, SA,
NSKK: Himmler with his staff (the usual suspects, Heydrich et. al.),
Bormann, Hühnlein, Todt, and many regional SS-, SA- and NSKK figures. Plus
the railroad management, including Dorpmüller.

It makes a lot of sense to assume, that May 11th, 1936, marks the date of
integration of the "Deutsche Reichsbahn" into the Nazi system, and into the
war preparation effort. It was a showcase run for speed and reliability,
not towards the public, but for the Nazi establishment and the military. No
record was planned.


Reasons for the record were:

1) The DMU had reached 200 km/h on the leg to Hannover, motivating the
steam crew.
2) Instead of 5 cars, only 4, due to hot axle damage of one scheduled car.
3) Wet rails.
4) Unplanned red signal at Wittenberge, endangering punctual arrival and
the reliability showcase.

So this record run was done for the purpose, to prove reliability towards
the Nazi leaders. The whole arrangement, and the willingness to integrate,
was rewarded: Instead of Todt, as expected, Dorpmüller was appointed as
secretary of traffic, in January 1937.



A serious malfunction of 05 002, with derailment, would have been a great
day for this planet.


hajo


--
    > DAS ist mit Abstand der allerschlechteste Rat
Quatsch. "Nimm (Flash|Java)"
Gruesse, Matthias, immer einen _noch_ schlechteren Rat wissend.
Matthias P. Wuerfl in de.comm.infosystems.www.authoring.misc

Clive Page

In article ,
David Horne wrote:

    >"Mallard holds the world speed record for steam traction on rail. The
    >record was set on the 3rd July 1938 when the locomotive was recorded
    >travelling at 126 mph."
    >That's quite amazing- maybe even a little depressing when you think that
    >no passenger trains in the UK currently run regularly at that speed, and
    >most of the tracks currently can't handle that kind of speed.

It is depressing isn't it?

And air travel is going the same way. By the end of this year, when all
the Concordes have all been moved to museums, we shall be able to look
back on the golden age when people could travel at Mach 2 using public
transport, and that looks like being true for the next couple of decades as
well. (Well public if you are rich enough).

And further on the same theme: I can remember a time when you could drive
legally at any speed on public roads in the UK (unfortunately I wasn't then
wealth enough to have a car that could exceed 70 mph). So what else is
regressing, apart from rail, air, and road transport?

--
Clive Page [email protected]

Tobias B Koehler

Clive Page schrieb:

    > And further on the same theme: I can remember a time when you could drive
    > legally at any speed on public roads in the UK (unfortunately I wasn't then
    > wealth enough to have a car that could exceed 70 mph).

Still legal in parts of Germany. Supported by the lobby of car
industry: If all roads have speed limits, what good would it be
to sell cars with higher top speeds? If everyone bought 120 km/h
cars instead of 200 km/h cars, they wouldn't earn as much.

> So what else is regressing, apart from rail, air, and road
> transport?

Is rail speed really regressing? On which lines in Great Britain
has the speed limit been reduced since the time of the Mallard?
I would have thought it's the other way round: With the
introduction of the HST, the speed limit has been raised to
201 km/h even on some diesel lines ....

--
tobias benjamin köhler ____________________________ [email protected]
_________ ______________ ______________ ______________ __>_____
========H|H============H|H============H|H========= ===H|=H=====`)
------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^-oo--------oo-^o-o--o-o=

Ross

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:56:29 GMT, tobias b koehler wrote in
, seen in misc.transport.rail.europe:
    >Is rail speed really regressing? On which lines in Great Britain
    >has the speed limit been reduced since the time of the Mallard?

Great Northern & Great Eastern Joint Line, (Peterborough) - Lincoln -
Doncaster.

I'm reliably informed that the ruling speed used to be 80mph. It's now
55mph.

--
Ross Hamilton, Branch Secretary, ASLEF 119 Lincoln
Opinions are mine alone, not those of ASLEF. At all. Ever.

From address *will* bounce. Reply to branchsec(at)aslef-lincoln(dot)org(dot)uk

mpprh

Hi

Although this post is about rail/transport museums, I feel I must reply to the comment above about the car museum in Mulhouse.

It was founded by the two Schlumpf brothers out of the profits from a textile factory. When the factory went bust, the brothers fled to Switzerland (taking a few exhibits with them). Eventually it became the French national motor museum in lieu of taxes owed by the brothers.

I tried to visit just after they fled but it was only open to journalists. I returned 2 years later and it was open to the public, but without any brochures, guidebooks etc. Most of the cars were unrestored.

They were Bugatti nuts. They have 100+ Bugatti cars + other Bugatti family designs including furniture. Here you can see 2 of the 7 Bugatti Royales. They bought up the contents of the Bugatti factory when it closed.

They also got interested in racing cars. Not any racing cars ........ just those that had won races. Lotus, Alfa Romeo, Ferraris, etc are shown. They also had many examples of French sports & racing cars.

Perhaps even more interesting are the private cars of the brothers. They bought the latest exotica, and parked them in the garage, unrestored after 12 months. Here you can see items such as a MB 300SL gullwing with 20,000km, etc

There are examples of most of the pioneering cars from the last 100 years. They also have a 1908 RR, a swallow sidecar Austin 7, etc.

Latterly they got interested in Porsche !

Well worth a visit for car nuts.

Like me !

Peter
http://tlp.netfirms.com

David H Wild

In article ,
Clive Page wrote:
    > >"Mallard holds the world speed record for steam traction on rail. The
    > >record was set on the 3rd July 1938 when the locomotive was recorded
    > >travelling at 126 mph."
    > >
    > >That's quite amazing- maybe even a little depressing when you think that
    > >no passenger trains in the UK currently run regularly at that speed, and
    > >most of the tracks currently can't handle that kind of speed.

    > It is depressing isn't it?

No, it isn't. Passenger trains didn't run at that speed; it was just a
special run. Even with the worsening after Hatfield the average speed, and
frequency, for most journeys is well above what was available before the
war, and for several years after.

When I started work at Leeds City station in 1952 the stationmaster used to
come out, in his best uniform, to greet the "London train"; there were
actually three of them each day - now there's more than one train an hour.

In 1960 I was working in North Eastern Region HQ at York. If someone at the
BRB called a morning meeting it was necessary to go the night before - now
it's just an early start.

--
__ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
    |__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / Acorn StrongArm Risc_PC
    | || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ [email protected]

P J Wallace

The question in the UK is not speed limits, it's the competence of
the management and the reliability, frequency, ease of use and cost of
rail travel. On almost all of those counts most people would say there
has been a clear decline since privatisation.

PJW

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:56:29 GMT, tobias b koehler
wrote:
    >Is rail speed really regressing? On which lines in Great Britain
    >has the speed limit been reduced since the time of the Mallard?
    >I would have thought it's the other way round: With the
    >introduction of the HST, the speed limit has been raised to
    >201 km/h even on some diesel lines ....

David Horne

David H Wild wrote:

    > In article ,
    > Clive Page wrote:

    > > It is depressing isn't it?
    >
    > No, it isn't.

Yes, it is. See below.

    > Passenger trains didn't run at that speed; it was just a
    > special run. Even with the worsening after Hatfield the average speed, and
    > frequency, for most journeys is well above what was available before the
    > war, and for several years after.

That's what's depressing. You're comparing current journeys with "before
the war." That's hardly a sign of progress. I'm more interested in
comparing journeys now with, say, a decade or two before. Then, they
don't compare very well. Journeys have stayed the same, and in many
cases have actually gotten slightly longer. Just look at the average
speed of journeys on routes such as, say, Liverpool to Newcastle, and
it's not very impressive. Even on the major routes, they've stayed the
same or increased since the 80s- thinking particularly of the east and
west coast mainlines. This is partly to cover the arses of the TOC's so
they can give some semblance of being on time, but still, it's a sad
state of affairs. Given that it can cost almost three times as much to
take the train than plane (£180 as opposed to £60 for an airfare) in
standard class between Manchester and London on peak times, you'd expect
_something_ in terms of progress, surely?

David

--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.co.uk
davidhorne (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk