Sjoerd

"Roderick Smith" schreef in bericht
news:01c30032$0512f880$308417d2@rodsmith...
    > I enjoyed the Netherlands railway museum, based in a disused station at
    > Utrecht (Thalys from Paris may meet your specification). I went by bus
    > from Utrecht station to within a couple of blocks of the museum.
http://www.spoorwegmuseum.nl/

Sjoerd

Graeme Wall

In message
The Reid wrote:

    > Following up to David Horne
    >
    > >"Mallard holds the world speed record for steam traction on rail. The
    > >record was set on the 3rd July 1938 when the locomotive was recorded
    > >travelling at 126 mph."
    >
    > this was set pulling a dynometer car during a test, not during a
    > public service. IIRC it was actually even faster 126.4 mph :-)
    > Steam locomotives didnt have speedometers, (I think I remember) so
    > other than when under test, speed would have to have been recorded by
    > a stopwatch.

Mallard actually has a recording speedo fitted, the maximum speed recorded
was 125 mph, the same as the German record except for a very brief peak of
126.4 on the chart which enabled the LNER to claim the record. The tests
were actually brake trials which made a good cover for the world record
attempt.
--
Graeme Wall
Transport Miscellany at

Graeme Wall

In message
"Forrest" wrote:

    >
    > "Helen Rose" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > My husband and I plan to be in Europe next month for a few days, based
    > > out of Paris. We love train museums (and transport museums in
    > > general).
    >
    > There is an automobile museum at Mulhouse in France.
    >

Also the French national Railway Museum, both are well worth a visit.

If you are going to be in Paris at the end of May then there is going to be a
major exhibition of trains in the Champs Elysses culminating in running
a train along the road on Sunday 1st June. See you there!

--
Graeme Wall
Transport Miscellany at

Graham Harrison

Next time you are in the UK this might be of interest:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/wroughton/index.asp . If you go there by
train you can stop at http://www.steam-museum.org.uk/

More on topic, this might be of interest
http://www.ruralrail-france.com/index.html

--
*****
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measure. Please address new mails or replies to
edwardharrison1btinternetcom replacing with a . and
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Mark Brader

David Horne:
    >> "Mallard holds the world speed record for steam traction on rail. The
    >> record was set on the 3rd July 1938 when the locomotive was recorded
    >> travelling at 126 mph."

Mike Reid:
    > this was set pulling a dynometer car during a test, not during a
    > public service.

Right. Also, it was downhill.

    > IIRC it was actually even faster 126.4 mph :-)

No, 126 is correct. I've seen the dynamometer recording either at the
museum or reproduced in a book or both. There have been a number of
claimed speed records that were given to spurious amounts of precision,
and Mike may be thinking of one of those.

(For example, in May 1904 a Great Western train hauled by the engine
"City of Truro", also running downhill, was clocked at 8 4/5 seconds
over a quarter-mile, using a stopwatch that read in fifths of a second.
Even ignoring possible of human error in taking this single fastest
reading, this does not give a speed accurate to within 1 mph [as 9 s
= 100 mph, 8.8 s = 102.27, and 8.6 s = 104.65]. Yet it is sometimes
cited as 102.3 mph, giving an absurd precision.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "These Millennia are like buses."
[email protected] --Arwel Parry

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Andrew Price

On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:07:06 GMT, [email protected] (Mark Brader) wrote:

    >>>"Mallard holds the world speed record for steam traction on rail. The
    >>> record was set on the 3rd July 1938 when the locomotive was recorded
    >>> travelling at 126 mph."
    >
    >Mike Reid:
    >> this was set pulling a dynometer car during a test, not during a
    >> public service.
    >Right. Also, it was downhill.

And a big-end bearing was severely damaged during the run.

Dik T. Winter

In article James Robinson writes:
> Helen Rose wrote:
> >
> > Does anybody have suggestions for train/transport museums?
>
> The railway museum is one of the largest in Europe, and is well worth a
> visit.

Whether it is one of the largest, I do not know, but it is worth a visit.
But much closer, there is a transport museum in Paris proper. It is on
the eastern end (and I disremember the exact place). Also well worth
a visit. Also in Antwerp (well within reach) there is a transport
museum worth a visit.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/

David Hansen

On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:21:17 +0100 someone who may be The Reid
wrote this:-

    >Steam locomotives didnt have speedometers, (I think I remember) so
    >other than when under test, speed would have to have been recorded by
    >a stopwatch.

Whether a locomotive had a speedometer or not varied from company to
company. From memory LNER express locomotives were fitted with a
recording speedometer, which recorded speed on a paper chart. This
would not be as accurate as the speedometer on the dynamometer car
though, which was accurately calibrated and driven from an extra
wheel.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen

On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:19:41 GMT someone who may be "Adrian Rothery"
wrote this:-

    >I'm no expert on real size railway operation but I read somewhere that the
    >reason UK trains are limited to 125mph is the stop light spacing trackside.

There are a number of issues, all related.

To travel faster than 125mph means a longer braking distance, unless a
different braking system is adopted. This longer braking distance will
be much longer than expected, due to the way braking distance varies
with speed.

The current signalling system was designed for air braked trains
travelling at 100mph. Changing all signal heads in an area to allow
for more aspects (and so higher speeds) is expensive, as the LNER
found out on their racetrack north of York when they did just this in
the late 1930s.

One solution is to provide better braking. This has been done once
before with the High Speed Train, where improved braking allowed the
train to stop from 125mph in the same distance (actually slightly
less) as a conventional train needed from 100mph. The technology was
disc braking with wheel slide protection on all coaches, like much of
the train it was world leading technology when introduced. The same
sort of braking is fitted to other trains that travel at this speed.
BR also developed a braking technology that would allow a train to
stop from 150mph in the same distance as a conventional train from
100mph. This was the hydrokinetic brake (a reverse hydraulic drive)
and worked well fitted to the APT. This was never put into regular use
though, due to Mrs Thatcher.

Sticking with HST style brakes means a longer braking distance. To
cope with this using conventional signalling means an extra "fifth"
aspect. This would be a combination of yellow and green, like the
yellow over green aspect used in the 1932 Mirfield scheme which
indicated that the next signal was showing a double yellow. However,
the arrangement of the lenses in current signals means that such an
indication would not have a blank lens between the lit ones, which is
essential for proper sighting. Thus all the heads would need to be
changed. Alternatively an unused signalling colour could be used,
purple was the favourite at one time, but all the heads would still
need to be changed.

BR did try a "fifth" aspect with existing heads, flashing green, which
can be seen to this day on the stretch of track where Mallard made her
famous run. It was to be the basis of 140mph running by class 91
locomotives. This did not find favour with the Railway Inspectorate
and it has only been used for test runs. Flashing green means that the
driver may exceed 125mph, reducing speed to 125mph after a steady
green. The signals in that area are still flashing (at least they were
when the subject was last discussed a few months ago), but drivers are
not allowed to make use of it.

Discussion of a "fifth" aspect was some time ago. Since the flashing
green saga there has been agreement that signalling is not just about
displaying things outside the cab, but rather it is about ensuring
that the driver acts in accordance with the signalling system. Thus a
"fifth" aspect has been essentially abandoned. For speeds above 125mph
information will be displayed on the driver's desk, because of the
delay in introducing such systems the class 91s will probably never
now run at their design speed.

With such a system the driver will glance at a signalling display in
the cab, which will authorise a suitable maximum speed and ensure that
the driver obeys it. Approaching a danger signal the cab display will
reduce the maximum speed before the first adverse signal comes into
the driver's view. In effect the "fifth" aspect will only be displayed
in the cab, not on the lineside.

This raises the question of whether the driver should be looking at
the lineside signals or the display, although the latter will
correspond to the former at lower speeds. The lineside signals will
remain for some time for other trains. The conclusion seems to be that
drivers of trains fitted with cab signalling will use that, but use
danger signals as a stopping point.

Note that the Channel Tunnel line will be signalled using a French cab
signalling system, which is based on French signalling practice. In
this a stop signal does not mean stop, that is what an absolute stop
signal means. The stop zone is a somewhat fluid concept, though there
is an absolute stop should the driver go too far into the stop zone.
There are no lineside signals, though there are marker boards.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen

On Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:39:42 +0100 someone who may be
[email protected] (David Horne) wrote this:-

    >[Mallard] 126 mph."
    >That's quite amazing- maybe even a little depressing when you think that
    >no passenger trains in the UK currently run regularly at that speed,

There is a difference between a one off special run and regular
service. Look at the time taken to translate the French high speed
trials of the 1950s into regular service.

Mallard was running downhill with a special train and twice ran at
126mph, each time briefly. The damage done to the locomotive was so
severe that she had to be removed from the train, to the
disappointment of the press and LNER publicity people. Trains now
regularly run uphill over the record stretch at much the same speed as
was briefly reached downhill. They could run faster uphill over this
stretch, if signalling problems could be sorted out (they have done so
on test).

An increasing number of lines are being cleared for 125mph operation,
including for the first time lines not going to or from London.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Adrian Rothery

"Adrian Rothery" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > The National Railway Museum in York, England is well worth a visit.
    > http://www.nrm.org.uk
Also The National Motor Museum at Beaulieu, New Forest, Hampshire, England.
QUOTE
With the Collection now comprising some 250 vehicles - from some of the
earliest examples of motoring to legendary World Record Breakers like
Bluebird and Golden Arrow - you are sure to find something to fascinate you.
UNQUOTE

http://www.beaulieu.co.uk/

Adrian.

Erwan David

"Dik T. Winter" wrote :

    > In article James Robinson writes:
    > > Helen Rose wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Does anybody have suggestions for train/transport museums?
    > >
    > > The railway museum is one of the largest in Europe, and is well worth a
    > > visit.
    > Whether it is one of the largest, I do not know, but it is worth a visit.
    > But much closer, there is a transport museum in Paris proper. It is on
    > the eastern end (and I disremember the exact place).

If you mean the Musée des transports urbain at St Mandé, it is closed
and is due to reopen in 2 years in a new location in Colombes
(North-West of Paris).

--
Monde de merde

Jon Bell

In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
    >If you are going to be in Paris at the end of May then there is going to be a
    >major exhibition of trains in the Champs Elysses culminating in running
    >a train along the road on Sunday 1st June. See you there!

Are they going to lay down temporary tracks, or piggyback the trains on
rubber-tired trailers?

--
Jon Bell Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA

Andrew Price

On Sat, 12 Apr 2003 08:38:54 +0100, David Hansen
wrote:

[---]

    >Note that the Channel Tunnel line will be signalled using a French cab
    >signalling system, which is based on French signalling practice.

French *cab* signalling practice.

    >In
    >this a stop signal does not mean stop, that is what an absolute stop
    >signal means.

What you are describing here is colour-light signalling practice, not
TVM, the cab signalling system.

    >The stop zone is a somewhat fluid concept, though there
    >is an absolute stop should the driver go too far into the stop zone.

I would not describe it as "fluid" - it is quite strict. French
line-side signalling distinguishes between simple block signals (a
single red aspect, called a "sémaphore", plated "f") and interlocking
signals (two red aspects displayed simultaneously, called a "carré",
plated Nf).

Drivers must stop at all red signals, but may, after bringing their
train to a stop, proceed past a sémaphore on their own initiative,
driving on sight, at strictly limited speed, such that they may stop
short of any obstacle. These restrictions apply until the next signal
is reached.

Under no circumstances may they pass an interlocking signal without
the written authority of the signalling centre.

The cab-signalling system is different, insofar as it does not present
aspects to the driver, but target speeds to be respected on passing
the marker board at the end of the block section. Failure to do so
results in an immediate emergency brake application.

David Hansen

On Sun, 13 Apr 2003 00:11:49 +0200 someone who may be Andrew Price
wrote this:-

    >French *cab* signalling practice.

Which is based on French thinking on signalling issues.

    >The cab-signalling system is different, insofar as it does not present
    >aspects to the driver, but target speeds to be respected on passing
    >the marker board at the end of the block section.

Where did I say anything different?

    >Failure to do so
    >results in an immediate emergency brake application.

AFAIR drivers may continue at slow speed past what would be a stop
signal if there were such things, only being stopped at what would be
an absolute stop signal. The stop zone is a somewhat fluid concept, as
I said earlier. I suspect that Modern Railways got this right, but
cannot be bothered to find the issue concerned.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.