Atri I

We live in US and will be traveling in Europe from around September 26
to October 16 using Eurail Saver passes. Tentatively, we will be
traveling to France, Spain, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria,
Italy and back to France with a mix of day and night trains.

These are the questions I need answers on:

1. How do I pay for reservations for couchettes/seats when I already
hold a Eurail pass? I didn't see such an option on www.sncf.com.

2. What are the reservation fees for couchettes/seats for Eurail pass
holders? Is it different for first and second class? On www.der.com,
the charge was $11 per seat, and $28 per couchette, but I have seen
$5/seat mentioned on this group. How do I get that price?

3. Which trains have supplemental charges, and typically, how much are
they?

4. How important is it to get reservations well in advance during this
period of travel? Can we just hop on day trains, or get reservations
just before boarding for trains like TGV that require reservations?
Similarly, for couchettes, how much in advance will we need to make
reservations?

5. The trains listed on www.raileurope.com seem to be a subset of the
trains mentioned on sncf.com and bahn.de. We have a pretty good idea
of our itinerary. What would be the best way to find the available
trains and make the appropriate train bookings?

6. Any other information on the extra costs and/or benefits of holding
a Eurail pass?


Thanks in advance,

Atri

Giovanni Drogo

On 3 Sep 2003, Atri I wrote:

    > 1. How do I pay for reservations for couchettes/seats when I already
    > hold a Eurail pass? I didn't see such an option on www.sncf.com.

I suppose you just go to a travel agent, to a ticket counter at the
station (in some places may be a special one for reservations), or apply
to the conductor of the trains. Rules may be different according to the
country.

Probably a travel agent will be better (it is more likely you find
someebody speaking english, it will be less crowded, you won't be
standing in a line ... and you won't be spending any extra fee).

    > 2. What are the reservation fees for couchettes/seats for Eurail pass
    > holders? Is it different for first and second class? On www.der.com,

I have no idea if the fee for you is different from the normal
reservation one pays with a ticket. Bear in mind that for travelling on
normal (local, regional, interregional trains and in general also IC)
reservation is NOT REQUIRED, and on some trains may not even be
possible. It is just an option if you want to secure a seat in crowded
periods. If reservation is optional, I guess the fee will be the same
for all classes (does your pass allow both classes ?) and distances but
it depends on the country.

If reservation is compulsory, then it's included in the supplements, see
below.

    > 3. Which trains have supplemental charges, and typically, how much are
    > they?

This also depends on the country. In Germany IC have a supplement and
ICE have an higher supplement. In Italy IC have a supplement, and ES
have an higher supplement. I am not sure if the supplements in Germany
are still flat fare, irrespective of the distance. In Italy supplements
vary with distance (actually they are part of the global price of
the ticket). And with class.

ES are compulsory reservation trains (the reservation is included in the
supplement). ICs in general are not (you must pay a supplement even if
you stand !).

You should check whether your pass includes travel on some of those
trains without paying a supplement.

Also you should check the possibility of paying the supplement onboard
(in general, but it may vary by country, the rules are : if you are
caught without ticket, you are fined ; if you board without ticket and
apply to the conductor, you can buy the ticket with an extra charge ; if
you board with a valid ticket but you want to upgrade, change classes,
or pay supplement, you can get it without extra charge).

    > 4. How important is it to get reservations well in advance during this
    > period of travel? Can we just hop on day trains,

I would guess you can just go to ticket counter before departure, or
even apply to the conductor. It is not holiday season. Be a bit wary on
Fridays afternoon and Sunday afternoon.

    > Similarly, for couchettes, how much in advance will we need to make
    > reservations?

Personally I do not advise using couchettes (I am not sure if there are
1st class ones, 2nd class ones are typically 6 berths in a compartment),
they are uncomfortable and perhaps unsafe. I'd advise using sleepers
instead. Sleepers cost more (comparable to hotels) but you have a real
bed with linens, running water, and can lock in the compartment.

Be aware that you require a 1st class ticket to travel in a Single,
Single special, or Double (prices in decreasing order), or a 2nd class
one to travel in a T2 or T3. T2 means two beds in a compartment, T3
means 3 beds. A car has either compartments which can be arranged as
Single/Double/T3 or as Special/T2. Availability may be limited, so in
this case you should book in advance (may be the day before).

If you are two, booking a complete T2 compartment is the best, otherwise
there is sex-segregation, a man will share a T3 with other men, and a
lady with other ladies.

Availability depends on the lines, there are cases with entire sleeper
trains, may be even more than one, and cases with just a single sleeper
car in a night train.

I am not sure whether there still is the 9/10 card. This used to be
valid on all railways in continental Europe. You got a stamp for each
sleeper trip, and when you'd got 9, the 10th was free.

    > of our itinerary. What would be the best way to find the available
    > trains and make the appropriate train bookings?

For timetables, I believe the German site is the best and has
information for ALL countries (I like the simpler interface at
http://home.arcor.de/e.lauterbach/au...fplanx-en.html ... although
I'd experienced one problem with foreign timetables after 20 Sep).

Or use each single national railway site (THEIR mileage may vary :-).

I won't be bothered about booking online. Just go to a good travel agent
in each country.

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Dr. Paul Sanschagrin

Most of my experience is with trains in Germany, so most of my
comments are related to Germany.

In article <[email protected]>,
Giovanni Drogo <[email protected]> writes:
    > On 3 Sep 2003, Atri I wrote:
    >
    >> 1. How do I pay for reservations for couchettes/seats when I already
    >> hold a Eurail pass? I didn't see such an option on www.sncf.com.
    >
    > I suppose you just go to a travel agent, to a ticket counter at the
    > station (in some places may be a special one for reservations), or apply
    > to the conductor of the trains. Rules may be different according to the
    > country.
    >
    > Probably a travel agent will be better (it is more likely you find
    > someebody speaking english, it will be less crowded, you won't be
    > standing in a line ... and you won't be spending any extra fee).
    >

I many of the larger German train stations, there's also a
"ReiseZentrum" that can do reservations, etc. and is akin to a travel
agency. Also keep in mind that, I believe, you can make reservations
for any country from any other. (At least at the station, but maybe
not at a travel agent.) So if you arrive in Germany and need to make a
TGV or an EuroStar Italia reservation for later, they should be able
to do it.

    >> 2. What are the reservation fees for couchettes/seats for Eurail pass
    >> holders? Is it different for first and second class? On www.der.com,
    >
    > I have no idea if the fee for you is different from the normal
    > reservation one pays with a ticket. Bear in mind that for traveling on
    > normal (local, regional, interregional trains and in general also IC)
    > reservation is NOT REQUIRED, and on some trains may not even be
    > possible. It is just an option if you want to secure a seat in crowded
    > periods. If reservation is optional, I guess the fee will be the same
    > for all classes (does your pass allow both classes ?) and distances but
    > it depends on the country.
    >
    > If reservation is compulsory, then it's included in the supplements, see
    > below.
    >

Here in Germany, the reservation fee for a seat is EUR 2.60, including
at least 2 trains. (The website says "includes any return or onward
bookings".) Reservations are only possible on IC and ICE
trains. For anything below (mostly RB and RE), it's not possible.

    >> 3. Which trains have supplemental charges, and typically, how much are
    >> they?
    >
    > This also depends on the country. In Germany IC have a supplement and
    > ICE have an higher supplement. In Italy IC have a supplement, and ES
    > have an higher supplement. I am not sure if the supplements in Germany
    > are still flat fare, irrespective of the distance. In Italy supplements
    > vary with distance (actually they are part of the global price of
    > the ticket). And with class.
    >

As a correction, in Germany, IC and ICE have NO supplements. From
www.bahn.de:

"For travel within Germany each EurailTicket includes the supplement
for the use of ICE, IC or EC trains (not including seat reservation)."

I think an exception are the ICE Sprinters, which are specific ICE
trains between Frankfurt-Munich, Frankfurt-Berlin, and
Frankfurt-Hamburg early in the mornings (for business travelers). These
also require a reservation. (I think basically the only trains in
Germany which do outside of the portion of the Thayls route to
Cologne.)

    > ES are compulsory reservation trains (the reservation is included in the
    > supplement). ICs in general are not (you must pay a supplement even if
    > you stand !).
    >
    > You should check whether your pass includes travel on some of those
    > trains without paying a supplement.
    >
    > Also you should check the possibility of paying the supplement onboard
    > (in general, but it may vary by country, the rules are : if you are
    > caught without ticket, you are fined ; if you board without ticket and
    > apply to the conductor, you can buy the ticket with an extra charge ; if
    > you board with a valid ticket but you want to upgrade, change classes,
    > or pay supplement, you can get it without extra charge).
    >
    >> 4. How important is it to get reservations well in advance during this
    >> period of travel? Can we just hop on day trains,
    >
    > I would guess you can just go to ticket counter before departure, or
    > even apply to the conductor. It is not holiday season. Be a bit wary on
    > Fridays afternoon and Sunday afternoon.
    >

In general, I don't bother with reservations. Part of it depends on
the specific day in terms of holidays. When my wife and I traveled to
Berlin over a holiday weekend, we had reservations going and we glad
we did as the train was packed. (Coming back, we couldn't get them, so
we had to sit on the floor/stand for the 2.5 hours back to Kassel. It
wasn't all that bad.) It might also depend on the length of train,
i.e., maybe it's okay to risk standing for an hour or 2 (you can
nearly always sit on the floor or lean on something), but
longer... Also, if you're with a group and really want to sit
together, you may want reservations. One more thing to consider, if
you're boarding a train at the start station, get there early and
board right away to get first dibs at a seat. Also, if you have a 1st
class EURail pass (which you must buy if you're over 26), it's less
likely that all seats will taken as more people generally travel
2nd.

    >> Similarly, for couchettes, how much in advance will we need to make
    >> reservations?
    >
    > Personally I do not advise using couchettes (I am not sure if there are
    > 1st class ones, 2nd class ones are typically 6 berths in a compartment),
    > they are uncomfortable and perhaps unsafe. I'd advise using sleepers
    > instead. Sleepers cost more (comparable to hotels) but you have a real
    > bed with linens, running water, and can lock in the compartment.
    >
    > Be aware that you require a 1st class ticket to travel in a Single,
    > Single special, or Double (prices in decreasing order), or a 2nd class
    > one to travel in a T2 or T3. T2 means two beds in a compartment, T3
    > means 3 beds. A car has either compartments which can be arranged as
    > Single/Double/T3 or as Special/T2. Availability may be limited, so in
    > this case you should book in advance (may be the day before).
    >
    > If you are two, booking a complete T2 compartment is the best, otherwise
    > there is sex-segregation, a man will share a T3 with other men, and a
    > lady with other ladies.
    >
    > Availability depends on the lines, there are cases with entire sleeper
    > trains, may be even more than one, and cases with just a single sleeper
    > car in a night train.
    >
    > I am not sure whether there still is the 9/10 card. This used to be
    > valid on all railways in continental Europe. You got a stamp for each
    > sleeper trip, and when you'd got 9, the 10th was free.
    >
    >> of our itinerary. What would be the best way to find the available
    >> trains and make the appropriate train bookings?
    >
    > For timetables, I believe the German site is the best and has
    > information for ALL countries (I like the simpler interface at
    > http://home.arcor.de/e.lauterbach/au...fplanx-en.html ... although
    > I'd experienced one problem with foreign timetables after 20 Sep).
    >
    > Or use each single national railway site (THEIR mileage may vary :-).
    >
    > I won't be bothered about booking online. Just go to a good travel agent
    > in each country.
    >

Most of the national sites should give you the same timetable as they
mostly run from the same database. (I've heard that Spain is an
exception and that the Spanish timetable from bahn.de is limited.)
Most national sites will only give fares for domestic travel, which is
a royal pain. An exception is SNCF which will give fares to/from
France. (Though I've had it complain about being too many
connections. Seems to be more than 3.)

Enjoy your trip,
--
Paul Sanschagrin
http://staff.uni-marburg.de/~sanschag
sanschag@ COMBINE
mailer. THESE
uni-marburg. LINES
de

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
++ Benjamin Franklin ++
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president or
that we are to stand by the president right or wrong is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the
American public.
++ Theodore Roosevelt ++

John Bermont

Atri I wrote:
    > We live in US and will be traveling in Europe from around September 26
    > to October 16 using Eurail Saver passes. Tentatively, we will be
    > traveling to France, Spain, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria,
    > Italy and back to France with a mix of day and night trains.
    >
    > These are the questions I need answers on:
    >
    > 1. How do I pay for reservations for couchettes/seats when I already
    > hold a Eurail pass? I didn't see such an option on www.sncf.com.
    >
    > 2. What are the reservation fees for couchettes/seats for Eurail pass
    > holders? Is it different for first and second class? On www.der.com,
    > the charge was $11 per seat, and $28 per couchette, but I have seen
    > $5/seat mentioned on this group. How do I get that price?
    >
    > 3. Which trains have supplemental charges, and typically, how much are
    > they?
    >
    > 4. How important is it to get reservations well in advance during this
    > period of travel? Can we just hop on day trains, or get reservations
    > just before boarding for trains like TGV that require reservations?
    > Similarly, for couchettes, how much in advance will we need to make
    > reservations?
    >
    > 5. The trains listed on www.raileurope.com seem to be a subset of the
    > trains mentioned on sncf.com and bahn.de. We have a pretty good idea
    > of our itinerary. What would be the best way to find the available
    > trains and make the appropriate train bookings?
    >

Atri,

See my page http://www.enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap17/rail.htm for answers
to many of your questions.

Reservations are generally not needed, and only cost a few dollars when
bought in Europe, not the figures you quoted.

Get a copy of the Thomas Cook European Timetable. It's the best friend
of rail pass travelers. See http://www.thomascooktimetables.com. It is
delivered to the USA at under $20 and 2 weeks. Use this along with your
Eurail timetable which came with your pass.

John Bermont
http://www.enjoy-europe.com

Barbara Vaughan

Giovanni Drogo wrote:
    > > 3. Which trains have supplemental charges, and typically, how much are
    > > they?
    >
    > This also depends on the country. In Germany IC have a supplement and
    > ICE have an higher supplement. In Italy IC have a supplement, and ES
    > have an higher supplement. I am not sure if the supplements in Germany
    > are still flat fare, irrespective of the distance. In Italy supplements
    > vary with distance (actually they are part of the global price of
    > the ticket). And with class.
    >
    > ES are compulsory reservation trains (the reservation is included in the
    > supplement). ICs in general are not (you must pay a supplement even if
    > you stand !).
    >
    > You should check whether your pass includes travel on some of those
    > trains without paying a supplement.

The last I checked, in Italy, the IC trains didn't require a supplement
from Eurail pass holders, while the ES trains did.

    > Also you should check the possibility of paying the supplement onboard
    > (in general, but it may vary by country, the rules are : if you are
    > caught without ticket, you are fined ; if you board without ticket and
    > apply to the conductor, you can buy the ticket with an extra charge ; if
    > you board with a valid ticket but you want to upgrade, change classes,
    > or pay supplement, you can get it without extra charge).

When I have upgraded on Italian trains from 2nd to 1st class, which I do
if 2nd class is full, I have had to pay an extra charge in addition to
the difference in the ticket prices.

    > > 4. How important is it to get reservations well in advance during this
    > > period of travel? Can we just hop on day trains,
    >
    > I would guess you can just go to ticket counter before departure, or
    > even apply to the conductor. It is not holiday season. Be a bit wary on
    > Fridays afternoon and Sunday afternoon.

September and October are definitely peak periods for parts of Italy,
including Florence and Rome. In Rome hotels cost more in September than
they do in August.

The only other comment I will add to your excellent advice, is that I
have no problems sleeping in a couchette compartment, although I have
known others who agree with you that they are very uncomfortable.
Perhaps it's because I'm not very tall. Also, I am not a light sleeper,
so the noises don't bother me. However, I'm sure the sleeping cars also
suffer from noise.

Barbara

Giovanni Drogo

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Dr. Paul Sanschagrin wrote:

    > > Probably a travel agent will be better (it is more likely you find
    > > someebody speaking english, it will be less crowded, you won't be
    > > standing in a line ... and you won't be spending any extra fee).
    > I many of the larger German train stations, there's also a
    > "ReiseZentrum" that can do reservations, etc. and is akin to a travel
    > agency. Also keep in mind that, I believe, you can make reservations
    > for any country from any other.

I do agree that the travel centre in major German stations are very
good. This might not be the case elsewhere. I've seen very long queues
at the International Ticket Office of Amsterdam Central Station (but
besides that the service was OK ... also this was some years ago, is it
better now ?), and I had very bad experience with Interational
Rservations at Milano Centrale (essentially I wanted a specific
itinerary and I got a "if it ain't in the computer it cannot be done"
... then I walked away and got it at a travel agent ... anyhow German
railways has just opened a representative in front of Milano Centrale, I
guess next time I'll go there).

I do not know about "reservations for any country from any other". I did
that in the past (reserving a sleeper from Germany to Italy while I was
in Holland, but my dutch colleagues say this is no longer possible). I
also believe it depends on the skill of the clerk (see comment above
about my experience at Milano Centrale ... clerks at a GOOD travel
agency can deal with unusual itineraries with no difficulties).

My main point was that buying a rail ticket at a travel agent will NOT
cost more than buying it at a station, and the service can be better.

If you (the poster who started the thread) want enquiries about
timetables and itineraries, you'd better ask on
misc.transport.rail.europe (there are people there who knows better than
I do).

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Hatunen

On 3 Sep 2003 23:48:28 -0700, [email protected] (Atri I) wrote:

    >We live in US and will be traveling in Europe from around September 26
    >to October 16 using Eurail Saver passes. Tentatively, we will be
    >traveling to France, Spain, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria,
    >Italy and back to France with a mix of day and night trains.
    >These are the questions I need answers on:

There is a fairly comprehensive list of the ins and outs of
Eurail tickets at
http://www.railpass.com/new/infocentre/ar6.htm#1


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Giovanni Drogo

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Barbara Vaughan wrote:

    > The only other comment I will add to your excellent advice, is that I
    > have no problems sleeping in a couchette compartment, although I have
    > known others who agree with you that they are very uncomfortable.

My question about "comfort" was not referring to the fact the berths are
small, or rough or anything like that.

Only you have to travel with several extraneous persons (would people
normally agree to share an hotel room with extraneous persons other than
in a mountain shelter ?), up to 5 if you travel alone in a 6-berth
compartment. Since the berths are on both sides of the compartment,
there is almost no space to hang your clothes. Also the berths have no
real linens (sometimes this "tessuto non tessuto" stuff !!), so I would
not undress and put a pijama in a couchette compartment, but just keep
my day clothes on while sleeping. Finally you can't lock in.

In a sleeper compartment you share it at worst with 2 people (travelling
alone in a T3). Since the berths are on one side, you have cloth
hangers on the other side. You can undress and sleep with pijama in a
real bed with linens. You have running water. You can lock in. You have
reading lights. You have a net close to your bed where you can put your
watch and your glasses.

Of course people's tastes and sensitivities may be different.

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Barbara Vaughan

Giovanni Drogo wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, Barbara Vaughan wrote:
    >
    > > The only other comment I will add to your excellent advice, is that I
    > > have no problems sleeping in a couchette compartment, although I have
    > > known others who agree with you that they are very uncomfortable.
    >
    > My question about "comfort" was not referring to the fact the berths are
    > small, or rough or anything like that.
    >
    > Only you have to travel with several extraneous persons (would people
    > normally agree to share an hotel room with extraneous persons other than
    > in a mountain shelter ?), up to 5 if you travel alone in a 6-berth
    > compartment. Since the berths are on both sides of the compartment,
    > there is almost no space to hang your clothes. Also the berths have no
    > real linens (sometimes this "tessuto non tessuto" stuff !!), so I would
    > not undress and put a pijama in a couchette compartment, but just keep
    > my day clothes on while sleeping. Finally you can't lock in.

I have often stayed in youth hostels, where many of the same conditions
are true. I have also sometimes spent the night trying to sleep in a
normal compartment, where all the same conditions are true. In a
couchette I sleep in my clothes, and I keep all my valuables on my
person, but at least I can stretch out and sleep.

Compared to spending the night sitting in a normal compartment, a
couchette is much more comfortable. Compared to a youth hostel, it is
about the same, except for the noise and movement of the train, and the
size of the bed. Of course, the conditions may be unacceptable for some
people.

Barbara

The Wests

    > 2. What are the reservation fees for couchettes/seats for Eurail pass
    > holders? Is it different for first and second class? On www.der.com,
    > the charge was $11 per seat, and $28 per couchette, but I have seen
    > $5/seat mentioned on this group. How do I get that price?
    >

Just a point - even if you have a first class rail pass you can travel
second class - for example, on the Thalys trains (cheaper surcharge) or
in sleeping accommodation.

For example, last summer we took the Thalys high speed train from
Brussels to Paris. Only 10 Euros extra per person on our train pass (2nd
class, including reservation fee). Train journey of only 1 hour 40
minutes. You have to specify that you want 2nd class - we were told that
railpass tickets on the train were sold out but in fact, only first
class were.

We also used the train pass to get a discounted ticket on the Eurostar
(you don't use any days so even your "empty" pass will work). We
travelled 2nd class and it was fine. BTW, you must have activated your
pass for this discount.

    > 4. How important is it to get reservations well in advance during this
    > period of travel? Can we just hop on day trains, or get reservations
    > just before boarding for trains like TGV that require reservations?
    > Similarly, for couchettes, how much in advance will we need to make
    > reservations?

Many trains don't need reservations. Even if you have a reservation, you
can get off earlier if you wish!

We were able to change our Eurostar reservation at the very last minute
when we saw that the earlier train had not left yet. No charge for the
change.

Frances
Toronto