Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
Sep 21st 2006, 9:56 am
#76
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Tony Polson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The key market for Eurostar is the full fare (and often First Class)
> business traveller who not only has no interest in trains, but is
> likely to find using the London Underground singularly unpleasant.
The "key market" as you call it is mainly served by the early morning and
evening trains, just as on most railways, and most of the seats on the
off-peak trains are aimed at leisure travellers, whether 1st or 2nd class.
Without the leisure market most railways would price themselves out of
business.
Roger
news:[email protected]...
> The key market for Eurostar is the full fare (and often First Class)
> business traveller who not only has no interest in trains, but is
> likely to find using the London Underground singularly unpleasant.
The "key market" as you call it is mainly served by the early morning and
evening trains, just as on most railways, and most of the seats on the
off-peak trains are aimed at leisure travellers, whether 1st or 2nd class.
Without the leisure market most railways would price themselves out of
business.
Roger
Sep 21st 2006, 9:58 am
#77
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well you've conveniently snipped some salient points, the biggest of which
>being that Eurostar's projections were built on a model that did not include
>low cost airlines.
Low cost airlines are almost entirely irrelevant to the London-Paris
market, because almost all the key landing slots are still owned by
the far-from-low-cost "national carriers".
What you have conveniently ignored is my point that Eurostar already
has 70% of the London-Paris and Brussels market yet is operating only
one third of the services projected for 2006. The other two thirds
cannot possibly come from the 30% of the market Eurostar does not
already have.
I suspect you have conveniently ignored this because you don't have an
answer. I do have an answer, which is that the people who were
responsible for the projections were deluded, or liars, or both.
The trouble is that the case for investing in the Channel Tunnel Rail
Link was made on the basis of the same false prospectus, which is why
I confidently assert that the UK Government loan guarantees will be
called in.
>Well you've conveniently snipped some salient points, the biggest of which
>being that Eurostar's projections were built on a model that did not include
>low cost airlines.
Low cost airlines are almost entirely irrelevant to the London-Paris
market, because almost all the key landing slots are still owned by
the far-from-low-cost "national carriers".
What you have conveniently ignored is my point that Eurostar already
has 70% of the London-Paris and Brussels market yet is operating only
one third of the services projected for 2006. The other two thirds
cannot possibly come from the 30% of the market Eurostar does not
already have.
I suspect you have conveniently ignored this because you don't have an
answer. I do have an answer, which is that the people who were
responsible for the projections were deluded, or liars, or both.
The trouble is that the case for investing in the Channel Tunnel Rail
Link was made on the basis of the same false prospectus, which is why
I confidently assert that the UK Government loan guarantees will be
called in.
Sep 21st 2006, 10:01 am
#78
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Tony Polson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Richard J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Jim Ley wrote:
> It is a view that is quite representative of a great many business
> travellers who have no interest in railways but a keen awareness of
> just how unpleasant it is to experience the many and various problems
> of using the London Underground.
They could always spend more time in their offices and use
video-conferencing instead of gallivanting round Europe. I suspect that
Tony is a representative of the business travellers. Most cities are not
the most passenger friendly place to travel at rush-hour, but some are worse
than others.
Roger
news:[email protected]...
> "Richard J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Jim Ley wrote:
> It is a view that is quite representative of a great many business
> travellers who have no interest in railways but a keen awareness of
> just how unpleasant it is to experience the many and various problems
> of using the London Underground.
They could always spend more time in their offices and use
video-conferencing instead of gallivanting round Europe. I suspect that
Tony is a representative of the business travellers. Most cities are not
the most passenger friendly place to travel at rush-hour, but some are worse
than others.
Roger
Sep 21st 2006, 10:06 am
#79
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Tony Polson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
> Your claim to be one of the "99%" simply doesn't hold water.
> The key market for Eurostar is business travellers who pay full fare
> and often travel first class. They tend to live to the south west of
> London and tend to access Waterloo easily by South West Trains.
Well know I know where the centre of the UK is, I always thought the
government and the BBC thought it was London, whereas in reality, it's the
area served by South West Trains. Perhaps we should arrange for SWT to run
the whole railway system.
I must admit to not using my local trains very often, but then I can go
anywhere in Wales by bus for nothing.
Roger
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
> Your claim to be one of the "99%" simply doesn't hold water.
> The key market for Eurostar is business travellers who pay full fare
> and often travel first class. They tend to live to the south west of
> London and tend to access Waterloo easily by South West Trains.
Well know I know where the centre of the UK is, I always thought the
government and the BBC thought it was London, whereas in reality, it's the
area served by South West Trains. Perhaps we should arrange for SWT to run
the whole railway system.
I must admit to not using my local trains very often, but then I can go
anywhere in Wales by bus for nothing.
Roger
Sep 21st 2006, 10:21 am
#80
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:52:39 +0100, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm sure we will see Eurostar include
>Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Amsterdam or Cologne on their map within the
>next 5 years.
How long would London- Amsterdam take?
>Secondly, all the parties involved - LCR, SNCF, SNCB etc - are saying
>Eurostar will turn a profit in 2008. If they can do that with only 1/3 of
>projected traffic then they must be doing something right.
Yes AIUI they're gaining the ability to pay the tunnel per passenger
rather than fixed fee for tunnel access and that's why they're going
to be profitable no real improvement in strategy or anything, so all
it really does is harm the tunnel yet further. Given that the tunnel
disappearing is likely to result in a renegotiation of the contracts
with Eurostar are you sure they'll remain profitable?
Jim.
> I'm sure we will see Eurostar include
>Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Amsterdam or Cologne on their map within the
>next 5 years.
How long would London- Amsterdam take?
>Secondly, all the parties involved - LCR, SNCF, SNCB etc - are saying
>Eurostar will turn a profit in 2008. If they can do that with only 1/3 of
>projected traffic then they must be doing something right.
Yes AIUI they're gaining the ability to pay the tunnel per passenger
rather than fixed fee for tunnel access and that's why they're going
to be profitable no real improvement in strategy or anything, so all
it really does is harm the tunnel yet further. Given that the tunnel
disappearing is likely to result in a renegotiation of the contracts
with Eurostar are you sure they'll remain profitable?
Jim.
Sep 21st 2006, 10:34 am
#81
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 23:01:59 +0100, "Renko" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>"Tony Polson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> "Richard J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Jim Ley wrote:
>> It is a view that is quite representative of a great many business
>> travellers who have no interest in railways but a keen awareness of
>> just how unpleasant it is to experience the many and various problems
>> of using the London Underground.
>They could always spend more time in their offices and use
>video-conferencing instead of gallivanting round Europe.
A telephone conference is adequate for many types of meeting.
--
Martin
wrote:
>"Tony Polson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected].. .
>> "Richard J." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Jim Ley wrote:
>> It is a view that is quite representative of a great many business
>> travellers who have no interest in railways but a keen awareness of
>> just how unpleasant it is to experience the many and various problems
>> of using the London Underground.
>They could always spend more time in their offices and use
>video-conferencing instead of gallivanting round Europe.
A telephone conference is adequate for many types of meeting.
--
Martin
Sep 21st 2006, 10:49 am
#82
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
Tony Polson <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >There isn't an Underground line connecting Ipswich (about where I
> >live) with Heathrow but it's still much easier and more convenient for
> >me to take train+underground there than to attempt to go by road.
> >
> >Similarly it makes very little difference to me (or I suspect 99% of
> >the rest of the population) whether Eurostar departs from Waterloo or
> >St. Pancras - it involves some Underground travel to either.
>
>
> Your claim to be one of the "99%" simply doesn't hold water.
>
> The key market for Eurostar is business travellers who pay full fare
> and often travel first class. They tend to live to the south west of
> London and tend to access Waterloo easily by South West Trains.
And wouldn't necessarily be put off by the idea of getting a cab or
private hire to St. Pancras from Waterloo...
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> >There isn't an Underground line connecting Ipswich (about where I
> >live) with Heathrow but it's still much easier and more convenient for
> >me to take train+underground there than to attempt to go by road.
> >
> >Similarly it makes very little difference to me (or I suspect 99% of
> >the rest of the population) whether Eurostar departs from Waterloo or
> >St. Pancras - it involves some Underground travel to either.
>
>
> Your claim to be one of the "99%" simply doesn't hold water.
>
> The key market for Eurostar is business travellers who pay full fare
> and often travel first class. They tend to live to the south west of
> London and tend to access Waterloo easily by South West Trains.
And wouldn't necessarily be put off by the idea of getting a cab or
private hire to St. Pancras from Waterloo...
--
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.davidhorne.net/pictures.html http://soundjunction.org
Sep 21st 2006, 11:31 am
#83
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
Tony Polson wrote:
> "Renko" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> To some of us getting to St Pancras or Waterloo makes not a
>> ha'porth of difference.
> Not everybody is like you. The fact that you subscribe to this
> newsgroup implies that you are an enthusiast for rail travel. You
> are making a simple but grievous error in assuming that everyone
> either thinks, or should think the same way as you.
Sounds as if you're making a similar grievous error. All he said is
that *some* of us don't mind much whether we have to get to Waterloo or
St Pancras, which I'm sure is true. You don't need to be a rail
enthusiast to find the Underground an efficient way (generally) of
moving across London. (And note that this thread is cross-posted to
rec.travel.europe)
> The key market for Eurostar is the full fare (and often First Class)
> business traveller who not only has no interest in trains, but is
> likely to find using the London Underground singularly unpleasant.
What a preposterous statement! Have you never noticed the hordes of
business people who travel in to Waterloo every morning, including some
in first class, then dive down the Tube to get to their places of work?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, change 'ten' to 'net' in address)
www.stayparis.net
> "Renko" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> To some of us getting to St Pancras or Waterloo makes not a
>> ha'porth of difference.
> Not everybody is like you. The fact that you subscribe to this
> newsgroup implies that you are an enthusiast for rail travel. You
> are making a simple but grievous error in assuming that everyone
> either thinks, or should think the same way as you.
Sounds as if you're making a similar grievous error. All he said is
that *some* of us don't mind much whether we have to get to Waterloo or
St Pancras, which I'm sure is true. You don't need to be a rail
enthusiast to find the Underground an efficient way (generally) of
moving across London. (And note that this thread is cross-posted to
rec.travel.europe)
> The key market for Eurostar is the full fare (and often First Class)
> business traveller who not only has no interest in trains, but is
> likely to find using the London Underground singularly unpleasant.
What a preposterous statement! Have you never noticed the hordes of
business people who travel in to Waterloo every morning, including some
in first class, then dive down the Tube to get to their places of work?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, change 'ten' to 'net' in address)
www.stayparis.net
Sep 21st 2006, 11:47 am
#84
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Tony Polson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Well you've conveniently snipped some salient points, the biggest of which
>>being that Eurostar's projections were built on a model that did not
>>include
>>low cost airlines.
> Low cost airlines are almost entirely irrelevant to the London-Paris
> market, because almost all the key landing slots are still owned by
> the far-from-low-cost "national carriers".
> What you have conveniently ignored is my point that Eurostar already
> has 70% of the London-Paris and Brussels market yet is operating only
> one third of the services projected for 2006. The other two thirds
> cannot possibly come from the 30% of the market Eurostar does not
> already have.
> I suspect you have conveniently ignored this because you don't have an
> answer. I do have an answer, which is that the people who were
> responsible for the projections were deluded, or liars, or both.
So do I and despite two posts you still seem to be ignoring it.
London contains about 8m people, the rest of the UK another 52m. Eurostar
wanted to tap into the reasonably accessible portion of this made up by the
northern Home Counties, the West Midlands and Greater Manchester and on a
more limited scale, further affield with sleeper services. Of course low
cost airlines had an impact on this market.
At no point have I tried to say that Eurostar were going to get their other
2/3 from the 30% of the *London* market. That would be a very cunning stunt.
I said that Eurostar might have expected to get that 30% *in addition* to
whatever else came from other parts of the UK. It's also apparent that the
delay in implementing the CTRL has stunted growth in the market as
London-Paris trains are pretty full and they can't offer any more capacity
(or use that capacity to drive prices down still further) through lack of
peak time paths. I fully expect the start of CTRL2 to see the introduction
of more Paris trains during the peaks and thus try to start the market
growth that should have happened in the late 90s. Whether they are at the
right station for it is another matter.
news:[email protected]...
> "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Well you've conveniently snipped some salient points, the biggest of which
>>being that Eurostar's projections were built on a model that did not
>>include
>>low cost airlines.
> Low cost airlines are almost entirely irrelevant to the London-Paris
> market, because almost all the key landing slots are still owned by
> the far-from-low-cost "national carriers".
> What you have conveniently ignored is my point that Eurostar already
> has 70% of the London-Paris and Brussels market yet is operating only
> one third of the services projected for 2006. The other two thirds
> cannot possibly come from the 30% of the market Eurostar does not
> already have.
> I suspect you have conveniently ignored this because you don't have an
> answer. I do have an answer, which is that the people who were
> responsible for the projections were deluded, or liars, or both.
So do I and despite two posts you still seem to be ignoring it.
London contains about 8m people, the rest of the UK another 52m. Eurostar
wanted to tap into the reasonably accessible portion of this made up by the
northern Home Counties, the West Midlands and Greater Manchester and on a
more limited scale, further affield with sleeper services. Of course low
cost airlines had an impact on this market.
At no point have I tried to say that Eurostar were going to get their other
2/3 from the 30% of the *London* market. That would be a very cunning stunt.
I said that Eurostar might have expected to get that 30% *in addition* to
whatever else came from other parts of the UK. It's also apparent that the
delay in implementing the CTRL has stunted growth in the market as
London-Paris trains are pretty full and they can't offer any more capacity
(or use that capacity to drive prices down still further) through lack of
peak time paths. I fully expect the start of CTRL2 to see the introduction
of more Paris trains during the peaks and thus try to start the market
growth that should have happened in the late 90s. Whether they are at the
right station for it is another matter.
Sep 21st 2006, 11:53 am
#85
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Renko" <[email protected]> wrote:
>They could always spend more time in their offices and use
>video-conferencing instead of gallivanting round Europe. I suspect that
>Tony is a representative of the business travellers.
You suspect wrong. :-)
I use rail mostly for leisure travel, and only at the lowest available
fare for my journey, even if that means choosing different
days/times/routes to travel.
I do some business travel by rail, but never at peak hours and almost
never at full fare. For the majority of my business travel I use my
car, as rail is not an option for most of the work I do.
>They could always spend more time in their offices and use
>video-conferencing instead of gallivanting round Europe. I suspect that
>Tony is a representative of the business travellers.
You suspect wrong. :-)
I use rail mostly for leisure travel, and only at the lowest available
fare for my journey, even if that means choosing different
days/times/routes to travel.
I do some business travel by rail, but never at peak hours and almost
never at full fare. For the majority of my business travel I use my
car, as rail is not an option for most of the work I do.
Sep 21st 2006, 11:55 am
#86
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Renko" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Well know I know where the centre of the UK is, I always thought the
>government and the BBC thought it was London, whereas in reality, it's the
>area served by South West Trains.
In terms of wealth generation, that would be about right. Many of the
UK's weathiest people, and the highest priced real estate outside
London, live on or close to the SWT corridor, or on or close to other
routes into Waterloo.
>Well know I know where the centre of the UK is, I always thought the
>government and the BBC thought it was London, whereas in reality, it's the
>area served by South West Trains.
In terms of wealth generation, that would be about right. Many of the
UK's weathiest people, and the highest priced real estate outside
London, live on or close to the SWT corridor, or on or close to other
routes into Waterloo.
Sep 21st 2006, 12:17 pm
#87
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
"Jim Ley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:52:39 +0100, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm sure we will see Eurostar include
>>Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Amsterdam or Cologne on their map within
>>the
>>next 5 years.
> How long would London- Amsterdam take?
About 3h20 with a stop at Brussels only.
>>Secondly, all the parties involved - LCR, SNCF, SNCB etc - are saying
>>Eurostar will turn a profit in 2008. If they can do that with only 1/3 of
>>projected traffic then they must be doing something right.
> Yes AIUI they're gaining the ability to pay the tunnel per passenger
> rather than fixed fee for tunnel access and that's why they're going
> to be profitable no real improvement in strategy or anything, so all
> it really does is harm the tunnel yet further. Given that the tunnel
> disappearing is likely to result in a renegotiation of the contracts
> with Eurostar are you sure they'll remain profitable?
Is this strictly true? It appears that the French part of E* will hit profit
next year and UK in 2008, so how does that work? When was the per passenger
deal done?
Dave
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:52:39 +0100, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm sure we will see Eurostar include
>>Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Amsterdam or Cologne on their map within
>>the
>>next 5 years.
> How long would London- Amsterdam take?
About 3h20 with a stop at Brussels only.
>>Secondly, all the parties involved - LCR, SNCF, SNCB etc - are saying
>>Eurostar will turn a profit in 2008. If they can do that with only 1/3 of
>>projected traffic then they must be doing something right.
> Yes AIUI they're gaining the ability to pay the tunnel per passenger
> rather than fixed fee for tunnel access and that's why they're going
> to be profitable no real improvement in strategy or anything, so all
> it really does is harm the tunnel yet further. Given that the tunnel
> disappearing is likely to result in a renegotiation of the contracts
> with Eurostar are you sure they'll remain profitable?
Is this strictly true? It appears that the French part of E* will hit profit
next year and UK in 2008, so how does that work? When was the per passenger
deal done?
Dave
Sep 21st 2006, 1:11 pm
#88
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 01:17:24 +0100, "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Jim Ley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Yes AIUI they're gaining the ability to pay the tunnel per passenger
>> rather than fixed fee for tunnel access and that's why they're going
>> to be profitable no real improvement in strategy or anything, so all
>> it really does is harm the tunnel yet further. Given that the tunnel
>> disappearing is likely to result in a renegotiation of the contracts
>> with Eurostar are you sure they'll remain profitable?
>Is this strictly true? It appears that the French part of E* will hit profit
>next year and UK in 2008, so how does that work? When was the per passenger
>deal done?
Right from the beginning I believe, until November 2006 there's a
minimum usage charge that Eurostar must pay the rail operator
regardless of actual usage, after that it's per passenger.
Jim.
>"Jim Ley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Yes AIUI they're gaining the ability to pay the tunnel per passenger
>> rather than fixed fee for tunnel access and that's why they're going
>> to be profitable no real improvement in strategy or anything, so all
>> it really does is harm the tunnel yet further. Given that the tunnel
>> disappearing is likely to result in a renegotiation of the contracts
>> with Eurostar are you sure they'll remain profitable?
>Is this strictly true? It appears that the French part of E* will hit profit
>next year and UK in 2008, so how does that work? When was the per passenger
>deal done?
Right from the beginning I believe, until November 2006 there's a
minimum usage charge that Eurostar must pay the rail operator
regardless of actual usage, after that it's per passenger.
Jim.
Sep 21st 2006, 1:24 pm
#89
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
On 20 Sep 2006 04:36:26 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
<snip>
>"The TGV is the Concorde plus commercial success," Clive Lamming, a
>railway historian who wrote the Larousse des trains et des chemins de
>fer encyclopaedia, told The Times. "The TGV has virtually reduced
>France to one big suburb. This has increased the independence of
>businesses from Paris. Workers are more mobile and their costs are
>less."
I'm sure it will be all fish sticks and daisies until the inevitable
French labor strike, whereupon the TGV will go from 200mph to 0mph.
Commuters will sour and return to the stuffy, uncomfortables airlines
they were already used to.
- TR
Vive La France!
<snip>
>"The TGV is the Concorde plus commercial success," Clive Lamming, a
>railway historian who wrote the Larousse des trains et des chemins de
>fer encyclopaedia, told The Times. "The TGV has virtually reduced
>France to one big suburb. This has increased the independence of
>businesses from Paris. Workers are more mobile and their costs are
>less."
I'm sure it will be all fish sticks and daisies until the inevitable
French labor strike, whereupon the TGV will go from 200mph to 0mph.
Commuters will sour and return to the stuffy, uncomfortables airlines
they were already used to.
- TR
Vive La France!
Sep 21st 2006, 7:35 pm
#90
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Times: Train that changed a nation celebrates its 25th anniversary
In message <[email protected]>
Tony Polson <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Richard J." <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Jim Ley wrote:
> >> I think you have a very different view of the undergroung and of
> >> flying to me - the underground is something never to enter,
> >> especially during the summer months or if you have luggage,
> >
> >Well, yes, that is a very different view to mine and somewhat extreme.
>
>
> It is a view that is quite representative of a great many business
> travellers who have no interest in railways but a keen awareness of
> just how unpleasant it is to experience the many and various problems
> of using the London Underground.
>
What problems? There are remarkably few, and the number of the bowler hat
and briefcase brigade to be seen pouring down the escalators at Waterloo
every morning seems to indicate that relatively few businessman share your
dread of the UndergrounD.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Tony Polson <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Richard J." <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Jim Ley wrote:
> >> I think you have a very different view of the undergroung and of
> >> flying to me - the underground is something never to enter,
> >> especially during the summer months or if you have luggage,
> >
> >Well, yes, that is a very different view to mine and somewhat extreme.
>
>
> It is a view that is quite representative of a great many business
> travellers who have no interest in railways but a keen awareness of
> just how unpleasant it is to experience the many and various problems
> of using the London Underground.
>
What problems? There are remarkably few, and the number of the bowler hat
and briefcase brigade to be seen pouring down the escalators at Waterloo
every morning seems to indicate that relatively few businessman share your
dread of the UndergrounD.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
