Mxsmanic

Ralph writes:

    > But the member states are still allowed to
    > ask you to register and get an official approval.
    > They cannot deny it to you, though - strange
    > but true.

Nor can they deport you if you don't do it, which is stranger still.

--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Barbara Vaughan

Tim wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 21:53:30 +0200, Barbara Vaughan
    > wrote:
    >
    > > I went yesterday to renew my "permesso di soggiorno" and learned that
    > > I'll have to be fingerprinted. I haven't heard any huge outcry from the
    > > freedom lovers who were castigating the US over this.
    >
    > Is that for all foreigners or just non-EU citizens? Maybe it's a sort of
    > tit-for-tat thing. (You are from the US aren't you?)

It's for any foreigner who requires a permesso di soggiorno (literally
"permission to stay), which I believe excludes EU citizens. It would
also exclude those who don't need a visa (i.e., tourists from countries
with a visa waiver.)

Barbara

Barbara Vaughan

Ralph wrote:
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > > I went yesterday to renew my "permesso di soggiorno" and learned that
    > > I'll have to be fingerprinted. I haven't heard any huge outcry from the
    > > freedom lovers who were castigating the US over this. As a matter of
    > > fact, I knew that such a measure was being discussed, but didn't realize
    > > that it had already been implemented. In some things, the Italian
    > > government is really fast.
    >
    > I find that disturbing, actually. It wouldn't happen, though, if it wasn't
    > for that right-wing Berlusconi regime.
    >
    > I'm wondering, actually, whether this is still in concordance with the EU
    > treaties - which state that EU foreigners to a country must not suffer from
    > discriminations that the locals don't have to endure. Usually that refers
    > to economical issues, though. Hm. Better to read up the EU treaties. ;-)

This fingerprinting applies only to those who need a permesso di
soggiorno, thus it would exclude EU citizens. I was told by the woman
who fingerprinted me that all EU countries are now fingerprinting
foreigners. I replied that I specifically knew someone in Germany who
told me that Germany doesn't require fingerprints. She replied that this
can't be true, she had read that Germany is doing laser fingerprinting.
The only explanation is that one of us is wrong, or that Germany has a
restricted subset of foreigners who need fingerprints. Actually, I would
find it much more offensive if a country exempted certain elite
categories and fingerprinted only refugee seekers or some other
unprivileged category.

I don't think you can blame it on Berlusconi. There was almost no
opposition to this measure even from most of the left.

Barbara

Go Fig

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

    > Nancy Kay writes:
    >
    > > Where in the US is ths being done?
    >
    > http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/living/...on/5957915.htm

In the first place, what a waste of $700k, when the kids can't read.

I can't understand why kids need to be identified to get a meal, Im sure
it gets back to the meal being free....

jay
Fri, Jun 6, 2003
mailto:[email protected]

--

Legend insists that as he finished his abject...
Galileo muttered under his breath: "Nevertheless, it does move."

Ralph

    > This fingerprinting applies only to those who need a permesso di
    > soggiorno, thus it would exclude EU citizens. I was told by the woman

EU citizens do need the permesso - it's just a formality. I know that for
sure because I stayed 4 weeks in Italy.

    > who fingerprinted me that all EU countries are now fingerprinting
    > foreigners. I replied that I specifically knew someone in Germany who
    > told me that Germany doesn't require fingerprints. She replied that

I believe you're right there. I'm fairly up-to-date with the news, and
haven't heard of it. There would be quite an outcry.

    > I don't think you can blame it on Berlusconi. There was almost no
    > opposition to this measure even from most of the left.

L'ulivo non esiste piu... well, at least they're no match for the centre-
right at the moment.

Ralph

Cristina

"Barbara Vaughan" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > It's for any foreigner who requires a permesso di soggiorno (literally
    > "permission to stay), which I believe excludes EU citizens. It would
    > also exclude those who don't need a visa (i.e., tourists from countries
    > with a visa waiver.)

Nope, also EU citizens need a permesso and need to show proof of health
insurance as well. It can be denied as well if the EU citizen is a felon.
Also, those who are staying longer than 8 days (but less than 90 which would
mean no visa) would essentially need one but if staying in hotels, the
hotel registers you with the questura and this is then considered complete.
If not staying in a hotel then you are supposed to go to the questura and
register yourself (no forms, pictures or money needed for this).

Cristina

Mason Barge

On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 12:53:39 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

    >R@L writes:
    >> We, EU citizens, do not need a permesso di soggiorno
    >> -we are free to live in any EU state just like you
    >> US citizens.
    >States of the European Union are sovereign. States of the United States
    >of America are not.

*Cough* Actually, they are. Or I should probably say, arguably they are --
fitting them into the word "sovereign" is like asking what is the capital of The
Netherlands.

Like the EU, the US was formed by a group of sovereign states who agreed to give
enumerated powers to a group government. All powers not specifically granted to
the federal government are retained by the states. The United States, in
essence, only operates with powers vested in it by the sovereign states that
comprise it. The US and the EU are very similar in this regard.

I don't want to take this too far. As a practical matter, a state is not
"sovereign" in the sense that it could make a treaty with a foreign country, for
example. It has renounced the right in favor of the US government.

I think a lot of people in Washington don't understand this, and they are
utterly shocked when their jurisdiction over some area is challenged in court.
The US government has tried, unsuccessfully, to do such things as regulate real
estate sales, regulate discrimination in state employment (although here the
14th amendment does apply to state governments and so some basic
anti-discrimination protection is available, especially concerning race),
regulate state employees workers compensation, etc. Most recently, the federal
government has tried to require states to pay employees federally-mandated
overtime (time-and-a-half after 40 hours per week) -- the Supreme Court tossed
it out, saying that the Constitution did not abrogate state sovereignty in this
regard.

If you want to sue the state of South Carolina, you might find that you have to
sue them in the courts of South Carolina, whereas you can usually sue an
individual in federal court if you live in different states.

You generally cannot get damages against a state in federal court, under the
doctrine of sovereign immunity (although there are some inroads on this). In
fact, unless the state allows damage suits against itself, you cannot sue for
damages against a state, period.

One other notable case recently, before I shut up -- a few years ago, Congress
passed the Brady Act to tighten restrictions on handgun sales. The scheme
required a purchaser to submit a form to the local police chief. It got tossed
out by the Supreme Court, on grounds that the federal government has no power to
regulate the conduct of state officers.
--
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea. If this is tea, please bring me some coffee."
- Abraham Lincoln

Barbara Vaughan

Judith Umbria wrote:

    > Barbara, I have to re-up in November. I'm not disturbed, as I had to be
    > fingerprinted for the criminal (non) record in the US to get a visa.
    > Is this 7 a day rule national? The office here is only open to foreigners
    > twice a week and there are always at least 24 waiting, so I'd guess you'd
    > have to show up at 1 AM here.

I arrived at the office at 5:45 (due to light traffic!). There was
already a Chinese family waiting. The man took my name and put it on a
list that had a heading at the top regarding deliveries of food items.
He seemed very familiar with the procedure and told me that sometimes 10
or even 15 people gain admission. Feeling sorry that I hadn't slept a
bit longer, I settled down to wait with a book: Indro Montanelli's
"L'Italia dei Secoli di Oro". I've been reading my way through a series
of Montanelli's books on Italian history; I didn't bring it to curry
favor from the carabinieri, but it couldn't hurt.

At nine the office opened, and a young official came out to tell us we
could enter. She firmly announced that today a maximum of five people
could be seen. This of course caused an enormous amount of consternation
among people who had been waiting for several hours. They began to
plead, referring to the list kept by the Chinese man. She yelled, "I
don't want to hear anything about your list; it's not an official list.
I just want to know who were the first five people to arrive." (Of
course, the only way to establish that was the list she refused to
recognize.) Eventually, she relented and allowed a sixth person to
enter. She then demanded that all of the other people go away. Almost
none of them did; they wanted to wait to see if at the end of the
morning there would be a change of heart.

One poor guy from Bangladesh works from 4 AM to noon, and had to take
time off to come to the office. This was the second time he had taken
four hours off work, and the second time he hadn't arrived early enough.
His permesso di soggiorno was about to expire and he realistically was
worried about being stopped. He spoke excellent English and pretty good
Italian, but he had a stuttering problem, and the official very rudely
asked him, using the familiar form, "What language are you speaking?"

After the line had been sorted out, a man who had not been among the
lucky six asked me what number I had. I told him I was number 2, and he
said, "See, they let the Americans go to the front of the line!" I told
him I had been there at 5:45, but he still thought my nationality had
bought me the privileged place.

Everything went fairly smoothly for me; I had brought everything on the
list of required documents in duplicate copy. The actual original
permesso di soggiorno was not on the list, but I assumed rightly that it
would be required. For safety I had also made a photocopy of it,
fortunately, because although it wasn't listed, a duplicate copy was
also required of that.

I had my fingerprints entered on six different forms. One form required
only the thumbprints, and one required prints of both hands, including
the palms. The rest required 10 fingerprints.

I was finished at 10:30. I now have a receipt saying that my permesso di
soggiorno isn't on my person because the commissariato has it. I also
have an appointment to pick it up. It can be picked up on any Saturday
(only on Saturdays) after the 12th of July. This is something new; the
last time I renewed it, it took over six months and I had to keep
calling (never getting through) or dropping by (waiting in interminable
lines) only to be told to try again in a few weeks.

When I left, I saw a woman in a sari in tears as she was being led
upstairs to be fingerprinted. I asked the man from Bangladesh why she
was crying, and he said, "She's just tired." I wished him luck and went
home; I was tired also.

    > On the citizenship, will that affect in any way your ability to get SS when
    > that time comes around? I'm still 7 years from being able to even ask for
    > it, but that was my only reservation.

No, that doesn't affect social security. I had relatives in Ireland who
are not US citizens and who lived only briefly in the US and are getting
social security from the US. Since then, they've increased the minimum
number of years you have to work to get it and they now reduce it by a
fixed percent if you also collect a pension from another country, based
on how many years you paid into social security. I consider this a bit
unfair. To be eligible for some Italian social service benefits, I would
have to be registered in the Italian pension system, even though any
pension I might qualify for in Italy would be a pittance because of the
limited years I would work here. However, it would theoretically be a
good idea to be in the system in order to qualify for these other
benefits that I might someday need. The problem is that if I register in
the Italian pension system, my US social security would be chopped
drastically because of this new law. Since I stopped working before age
62, it's already quite reduced and I don't see why they see fit to
reduce it still further. I won't be able to use Medicare, so I'm
actually saving them a bundle by leaving the country.

Barbara

Nathalie Chiva

Barbara Vaughan a écrit :

    > Judith Umbria wrote:
    > > Barbara, I have to re-up in November. I'm not disturbed, as I had to be
    > > fingerprinted for the criminal (non) record in the US to get a visa.
    > > Is this 7 a day rule national? The office here is only open to foreigners
    > > twice a week and there are always at least 24 waiting, so I'd guess you'd
    > > have to show up at 1 AM here.
    > I arrived at the office at 5:45 (due to light traffic!).



Gee, I *love* Italy, but there are 2 things that would prevent me from living
there: Italian administration and Italian helath system (though I hear the latter
is better now).

Nathalie in Switzerland

Cristina

"Nathalie Chiva" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Gee, I *love* Italy, but there are 2 things that would prevent me from
living
    > there: Italian administration and Italian helath system (though I hear the
latter
    > is better now).

Now I wonder who you could have heard that from ;-) Hopefully you will hear
more good comments when I see you next month.

Cristina

Cristina

    > Judith Umbria wrote:
    > > Barbara, I have to re-up in November. I'm not disturbed, as I had to be
    > > fingerprinted for the criminal (non) record in the US to get a visa.
    > > Is this 7 a day rule national? The office here is only open to
foreigners
    > > twice a week and there are always at least 24 waiting, so I'd guess
you'd
    > > have to show up at 1 AM here.

Judith, call before to find out the situation. Here we go by appointment as
well as the long line of people who arrive at 6 am. to wait in line.

I went to the office because of an error (you know the long story about the
missing "h") and they gave me an appointment for 3 weeks from then. I did
not need to give fingerprints (new application was done in April of this
year) at that time. I was able to pick it up after a month. The whole
process took about 10 minutes as I had duplicates of everything I could
think of (I even copied my house purchase contract and my husband's work
contract). Was really a painless situation for me. And in the end I didn't
have to go to pick it up as I have a friend who works for the Guardia della
Finanza and he said he would do it for me. It's not what you know but who
you know.

So see how it is done there.

Cristina

Cristina

"Barbara Vaughan" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    >> I also learned recently that my Italian citizenship papers have been
    > forwarded from Rome. They now have to take a circuitous route through
    > some regional government offices, then they'll be sent to my local town
    > hall, where the town clerk has promised to call me the minute they
    > arrive.

Barbara, what did you get for the fedina penale for your citizenship
application? I guess I could go to the consulate and get a fingerprint card
for the FBI but was wondering if there was another way.

Cristina

Alec

"Ralph" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > > This fingerprinting applies only to those who need a permesso di
    > > soggiorno, thus it would exclude EU citizens. I was told by the woman
    > EU citizens do need the permesso - it's just a formality. I know that for
    > sure because I stayed 4 weeks in Italy.
    > > who fingerprinted me that all EU countries are now fingerprinting
    > > foreigners. I replied that I specifically knew someone in Germany who
    > > told me that Germany doesn't require fingerprints. She replied that
    > I believe you're right there. I'm fairly up-to-date with the news, and
    > haven't heard of it. There would be quite an outcry.
I've had a free morning so I scoured German documents on the net relating to
residence permit (Aufenthaltserlaubnis) and fingerprinting (Fingerabdruck).
Only thing I could find was a pilot scheme in Nigeria compelling those
seeking German visa to be fingerprinted. The source said if successful it
may be extended to all visa nationals before arrival and afterwards for
residence permit and its renewal. It further said the move was part of
increased security measure after 9/11, and the government was testing the
use of fingerprint-recognition technique at airports.

Alec

Barbara Vaughan

cristina wrote:
    >
    > "Barbara Vaughan" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > It's for any foreigner who requires a permesso di soggiorno (literally
    > > "permission to stay), which I believe excludes EU citizens. It would
    > > also exclude those who don't need a visa (i.e., tourists from countries
    > > with a visa waiver.)
    >
    > Nope, also EU citizens need a permesso and need to show proof of health
    > insurance as well. It can be denied as well if the EU citizen is a felon.
    > Also, those who are staying longer than 8 days (but less than 90 which would
    > mean no visa) would essentially need one but if staying in hotels, the
    > hotel registers you with the questura and this is then considered complete.
    > If not staying in a hotel then you are supposed to go to the questura and
    > register yourself (no forms, pictures or money needed for this).

That's very odd; there are lots of Europeans living in my province,
including hundreds, maybe thousands, of Germans. But the only Europeans
I've ever seen at the commissariato are from the former Soviet Union or
other countries outside the EU. Perhaps they have a streamlined way to
get the permesso di soggiorno?

Barbara

Barbara Vaughan

Ralph wrote:

    > L'ulivo non esiste piu... well, at least they're no match for the centre-
    > right at the moment.

However, they're very capable of making quite an uproar on issues dear
to their hearts. This issue wasn't one of them.

Barbara