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the supertrain delayed for ten years
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1821094.ece
>From The Times May 22, 2007 Finally going somewhere in a hurry, the supertrain delayed for ten years Roger Boyes in Berlin Arriving soon on Platform 2 is the latest contribution by Germany and France to fast-track European integration: a high-speed train that will slice two hours off the journey from Frankfurt to Paris. It is being hailed as a breakthrough for the European Union, which trumpets the merits of more closely knit transport links but which all too often buckles under the weight of competing national bureaucracies. By the time the whistle blows for the final test drive on Friday, the 320 km/h (199mph) express will have spent almost a decade in the sidings because of Franco-German quarrels about coffee cups, braking systems, on-board handcuffs and little red flags. �The French SNCF, the national carrier, slowed down things a lot during the initial years,� admits Peter Lankes, of German Railways� high-speed technology department. That is putting it mildly: there has been a veritable clash of railway civilisations since the two neighbours developed their sleek engines, the French TGV and the German ICE. Berlin first allowed the TGV to operate on German track in 2001 � a service from Paris to Stuttgart that takes 5 hours 56 minutes. First, though, the French had to meet German standards: stronger brakes because Germany insists on shorter braking times, drinkable water in the lavatories and real porcelain rather than plastic crockery in the dining car. It was probably the affront of the Germans telling the French how to eat that released the counter-blast. Before the ICE was allowed to enter France, it had to accept dozens of alterations, adding �8 million (�5.5 million) of additional expense to every train on the route. French trains have a special seat with metal rings to hold any criminal detained on board; the German trains did not. Each French train has, under rules drawn up in the steam age, an emergency kit that includes red flags and flares � pointless, say the Germans, when travelling at these kinds of speeds. The new German trains, in order to meet French specifications, now have three wiring systems and five different fuses. �It�s as if trucks were obliged to have diesel, super and ordinary petrol tanks before crossing the French border,� grumbled the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Before the French were wholly satisfied, the ICE had to complete 120,000km of tests and more than 30 drivers had to pass an exam in the French language. But the biggest non-technical sticking point was the refusal of French ticket inspectors to serve coffee and meals to first- class customers. This is a normal part of the service for German ICE trains but was a step too far for the proud controlleurs. German inspectors will now double as waiters for the whole journey to Paris. It has been a long wait, and a great deal of aggravation, but the Germans clearly believe it was worth it. �We are optimistic that we will be able to double our market share on these routes to 40 per cent within five years compared to cars and air traffic,� says Mr Lankes. The TGV travelling from Paris to Stuttgart will be able to trim travel time to 3 hours 39 minutes. The same train will be able to reach Munich in 6 hours 11 minutes, saving almost two and a half hours on the current journey. The Frankfurt to Paris line will take 4 hours 11 minutes, saving just over two hours. By the end of the year, the train should shave another 20 minutes off the trip. Among the first beneficiaries will be employees of the European Central Bank, based in Frankfurt, but headed by the Frenchman Jean-Claude Trichet. If the final test drive goes according to plan this week, the service will begin on June 10. The timesaving comes largely because locomotives will no longer be changed at the border. The ICE, with its bilingual drivers and joint Franco-German ticket inspection team, will drive straight through to Paris. Just be sure not to shout �Gar�on!� at the inspector when ordering your meal on porcelain plates. However, �Herr Ober!� might do the trick. |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
n. shunta a �crit :
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1821094.ece > >>From The Times > May 22, 2007 > > Finally going somewhere in a hurry, the supertrain delayed for ten > years > Roger Boyes in Berlin > > Arriving soon on Platform 2 is the latest contribution by Germany and > France to fast-track European integration: a high-speed train that > will slice two hours off the journey from Frankfurt to Paris. The customary typical anti french paper in the Times... On one side the good German with "decent" requests (better brakes, drinkable water, etc.) on the other side the bad guys (guess who?) with stupid requirements ... Let's have a look: "French trains have a special seat with metal rings to hold any criminal detained on board; the German trains did not. " So one serie of seat per car need to have an additional ring. Not that bad! "Each French train has, under rules drawn up in the steam age, an emergency kit that includes red flags and flares � pointless, say the Germans, when travelling at these kinds of speeds. " Stupid at 320 kmh, but not so stupid at 100, 80 or 60 kmh... It's still been used on standard lines when necessary. Aside I found a bit strange that a UK newspaper tries to decide what safety rules are good or not in continental EU... Better examine the rail problems and rail safety issues in UK first! "The new German trains, in order to meet French specifications, now have three wiring systems and five different fuses. �It�s as if trucks were obliged to have diesel, super and ordinary petrol tanks before crossing the French border,� grumbled the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. The advice from another newspaper, very technical indeed! Well, to be able to circulate on Belgian, French, German and Deutch lines, the Thalys has four power supply capabilities, at least three different track signalization systems and multiple over current protection. Nobody complains (and certainely not the French) because that's the only way it will work. "Before the French were wholly satisfied, the ICE had to complete 120,000km of tests and more than 30 drivers had to pass an exam in the French language". Nothing surprising regarding the fact that signals on conventional tracks are not standardized in UE, and some are written in french. Besides, radio transmissions of train controllers to trains, on French lines, are surprisingly done in French... " But the biggest non-technical sticking point was the refusal of French ticket inspectors to serve coffee and meals to first- class customers. This is a normal part of the service for German ICE trains but was a step too far for the proud controlleurs. " And this is not the case in France. So one has to find an agreement... What is less normal than that? A last word, technical again. France developped in the 70's an advanced train engine (type CC40100) that was able to run under 4 traction currents in Belgium, Netherlands, France and Germany. max spped ws 140 kmh, but thenecessary lines were not there at this time. The engine ran for years directly from paris to Amsterdam, but was prevented to circulate in Germany not for technical reasons but for political ones; It was a maater of train technic superiority already at this time. Cheers, YD |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:48:25 +0200, Yves Dessaux <[email protected]>
wrote: >A last word, technical again. France developped in the 70's an advanced >train engine (type CC40100) that was able to run under 4 traction >currents in Belgium, Netherlands, France and Germany. max spped ws 140 >kmh, but thenecessary lines were not there at this time. The engine ran >for years directly from paris to Amsterdam, but was prevented to >circulate in Germany not for technical reasons but for political ones; >It was a maater of train technic superiority already at this time. The use of the high speed trains at planned speed is about ten years late in the Netherlands too. The engines are in France being modified for safety reasons. -- Martin |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On 22 mai, 11:48, Yves Dessaux <[email protected]> wrote:
> n. shunta a �crit : > > >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1821094.ece > > >>From The Times > > May 22, 2007 > > > Finally going somewhere in a hurry, the supertrain delayed for ten > > years > > Roger Boyes in Berlin > > > Arriving soon on Platform 2 is the latest contribution by Germany and > > France to fast-track European integration: a high-speed train that > > will slice two hours off the journey from Frankfurt to Paris. > > The customary typical anti french paper in the Times... > > On one side the good German with "decent" requests (better brakes, > drinkable water, etc.) on the other side the bad guys (guess who?) with > stupid requirements ... Let's have a look: > > "French trains have a special seat with metal rings to hold any > criminal detained on board; the German trains did not. " > > So one serie of seat per car need to have an additional ring. Not that bad! > > "Each French train has, under rules drawn up in the steam age, an > emergency kit that includes red flags and flares - pointless, say the > Germans, when travelling at these kinds of speeds. " > > Stupid at 320 kmh, but not so stupid at 100, 80 or 60 kmh... It's still > been used on standard lines when necessary. Aside I found a bit strange > that a UK newspaper tries to decide what safety rules are good or not in > continental EU... Better examine the rail problems and rail safety > issues in UK first! > > "The new German trains, in order to meet French specifications, now have > three wiring systems and five different fuses. "It's as if trucks were > obliged to have diesel, super and ordinary petrol tanks before crossing > the French border," grumbled the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. > > The advice from another newspaper, very technical indeed! Well, to be > able to circulate on Belgian, French, German and Deutch lines, the > Thalys has four power supply capabilities, at least three different > track signalization systems and multiple over current protection. Nobody > complains (and certainely not the French) because that's the only way it > will work. So the Times deliberatly LIED at least... once in this single article by saying : "in order to meet French specifications" instead of "in order to meet BOTH French AND GERMAN specifications" (and perhaps more if the ICE reach one day Luxembourg, etc... like the TGV Est will do...) ! That's not very SERIOUS indeed :+) didier Meurgues > "Before the French were wholly satisfied, the ICE had to complete > 120,000km of tests and more than 30 drivers had to pass an exam in the > French language". > > Nothing surprising regarding the fact that signals on conventional > tracks are not standardized in UE, and some are written in french. > Besides, radio transmissions of train controllers to trains, on French > lines, are surprisingly done in French... > > " But the biggest non-technical sticking point was the > refusal of French ticket inspectors to serve coffee and meals to first- > class customers. This is a normal part of the service for German ICE > trains but was a step too far for the proud controlleurs. " > > And this is not the case in France. So one has to find an agreement... > What is less normal than that? > > A last word, technical again. France developped in the 70's an advanced > train engine (type CC40100) that was able to run under 4 traction > currents in Belgium, Netherlands, France and Germany. max spped ws 140 > kmh, but thenecessary lines were not there at this time. The engine ran > for years directly from paris to Amsterdam, but was prevented to > circulate in Germany not for technical reasons but for political ones; > It was a maater of train technic superiority already at this time. > > Cheers, > > YD |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On 22 May 2007 03:32:50 -0700, didier Meurgues <[email protected]> wrote:
>So the Times deliberatly LIED at least... once in this single article >by saying : The Times is a Murdoch publication. His publications aren't supposed to be factual. -- Martin |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On 22 May, 12:52, Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 22 May 2007 03:32:50 -0700, didier Meurgues <[email protected]> wrote: > > >So the Times deliberatly LIED at least... once in this single article > >by saying : > > The Times is a Murdoch publication. His publications aren't supposed to be > factual. > -- > > Martin and yours are ): |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:48:25 +0200, Yves Dessaux
<[email protected]> wrote: >Aside I found a bit strange >that a UK newspaper tries to decide what safety rules are good or not in >continental EU... Better examine the rail problems and rail safety >issues in UK first! Ah. The "So's your old man" argument. Britsh rail does have problems, but I fail to see how that precludes Brit newspapers and magazines from discussing problems in other parts of the EU. Or the world, for that matter. -- ************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
"n. shunta" <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1821094.ece > > Before the French were wholly satisfied, the ICE had to complete > 120,000km of tests and more than 30 drivers had to pass an exam in the > French language. But the biggest non-technical sticking point was the > refusal of French ticket inspectors to serve coffee and meals to first- > class customers. This is a normal part of the service for German ICE > trains but was a step too far for the proud controlleurs. German > inspectors will now double as waiters for the whole journey to Paris. I took the ICE from D�?sseldorf to Amsterdam a couple months back. The German conductors spoke flawless Dutch and English (either that, or they were Dutch, in which case it wouldn't be much of a surprise). Never in a million years would I expect that from SNCF staff. So I think on the net the customers are better off with this arrangement anyway. miguel -- Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
Make credence recognised that on Tue, 22 May 2007 08:42:52 -0700,
Hatunen <[email protected]> has scripted: >On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:48:25 +0200, Yves Dessaux ><[email protected]> wrote: >>Aside I found a bit strange >>that a UK newspaper tries to decide what safety rules are good or not in >>continental EU... Better examine the rail problems and rail safety >>issues in UK first! > >Ah. The "So's your old man" argument. > >Britsh rail does have problems, but I fail to see how that >precludes Brit newspapers and magazines from discussing problems >in other parts of the EU. Or the world, for that matter. Indeed, but then you're not really representative of the Britrail mentality. -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
Make credence recognised that on Wed, 23 May 2007 04:44:53 +0800,
Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> has scripted: >I took the ICE from Düsseldorf Wow. I guess my something it displaying it wrong. -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
Deeply Filled Mortician <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu>
wrote: > Make credence recognised that on Wed, 23 May 2007 04:44:53 +0800, > Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> has scripted: > > >I took the ICE from D�?�?�?sseldorf > > Wow. I guess my something it displaying it wrong. No, there's a little-known city called D�?�?�?sseldorf about 45km northeast of D�?sseldorf. Did it work this attempt? I'm using one of them fancy newfangled GUI newsreaders for the first time these days. miguel -- Hit the road! Photos from around the world: http://travel.u.nu Detailed airport information: http://airport.u.nu |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On Wed, 23 May 2007 16:03:38 +0800, Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
>Deeply Filled Mortician <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> > wrote: >> Make credence recognised that on Wed, 23 May 2007 04:44:53 +0800, >> Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> has scripted: >> >> >I took the ICE from DÃπsseldorf >> >> Wow. I guess my something it displaying it wrong. > >No, there's a little-known city called DÃπsseldorf about 45km northeast >of Düsseldorf. > >Did it work this attempt? Not on my DÃπLL PC. -- Martin |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On 22 mei, 22:44, Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
> I took the ICE from D�sseldorf to Amsterdam a couple months back. The > German conductors spoke flawless Dutch and English (either that, or they > were Dutch, in which case it wouldn't be much of a surprise). > > Never in a million years would I expect that from SNCF staff. So I think > on the net the customers are better off with this arrangement anyway. The French are known for not being the world's best linguists, but at least the Thalys in France is fast, not the pathetic milk-train it becomes in Holland. B; |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
On 23 May 2007 01:14:07 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>On 22 mei, 22:44, Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I took the ICE from D�sseldorf to Amsterdam a couple months back. The >> German conductors spoke flawless Dutch and English (either that, or they >> were Dutch, in which case it wouldn't be much of a surprise). >> >> Never in a million years would I expect that from SNCF staff. So I think >> on the net the customers are better off with this arrangement anyway. > >The French are known for not being the world's best linguists, but at >least the Thalys in France is fast, not the pathetic milk-train it >becomes in Holland. Try going to Liege from Leiden. -- Martin |
Re: the supertrain delayed for ten years
Make credence recognised that on Wed, 23 May 2007 16:03:38 +0800,
Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> has scripted: >Deeply Filled Mortician <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> > wrote: >> Make credence recognised that on Wed, 23 May 2007 04:44:53 +0800, >> Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> has scripted: >> >> >I took the ICE from D�?�?sseldorf >> >> Wow. I guess my something it displaying it wrong. > >No, there's a little-known city called D�?�?sseldorf about 45km northeast >of Düsseldorf. > >Did it work this attempt? No, it's bound to be my archaic version of Agent that I just can't bring myself to upgrade. -- --- DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com --- -- |
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