nitram

On 20 Sep 2004 21:06:22 -0600, [email protected] (Bill Moore)
wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> I found driving in California and Nevada safer than anywhere else I
    >>> have driven in the world.
    >>In Palo Alto, nobody goes faster than 5mph and they stop for butterflies
    >I agree, though I'm not sure this makes it safe (or if you were
    >implying that it does).
    >>crossing the road. In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    >>red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    >I'm less sure that I agree with this.

I had no problems driving in either.

Martin Bienwald

Miguel Cruz schrieb:

    > In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    > red light if you put a freight train in the way.

They do stop regularly for pedestrians, which is a lot more than many
European drivers do ...

... Martin

Hatunen

On 21 Sep 2004 11:26:58 GMT, Martin Bienwald
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >Miguel Cruz schrieb:
    >> In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    >> red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    >They do stop regularly for pedestrians, which is a lot more than many
    >European drivers do ...

Finns stop for pedestrians with considrable universality; it was
a bit of a shock for me, even after living for 16 years in the SF
Bay area.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Hatunen

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:43 +0300, "Markku Grönroos"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti viestissä
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> On 21 Sep 2004 11:26:58 GMT, Martin Bienwald
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >Miguel Cruz schrieb:
    >> >
    >> >> In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    >> >> red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    >> >
    >> >They do stop regularly for pedestrians, which is a lot more than many
    >> >European drivers do ...
    >> Finns stop for pedestrians with considrable universality; it was
    >> a bit of a shock for me, even after living for 16 years in the SF
    >> Bay area.
    >It is just funny that someone finds it shocking when cars stop at red
    >lights.

Crosswalks are not always at red lights, you know.




************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Markku Grönroos

"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti viestissä
news:[email protected]...
    > On 21 Sep 2004 11:26:58 GMT, Martin Bienwald
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Miguel Cruz schrieb:
    > >
    > >> In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    > >> red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    > >
    > >They do stop regularly for pedestrians, which is a lot more than many
    > >European drivers do ...
    > Finns stop for pedestrians with considrable universality; it was
    > a bit of a shock for me, even after living for 16 years in the SF
    > Bay area.
It is just funny that someone finds it shocking when cars stop at red
lights.

Markku Grönroos

"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti viestissä
news:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:03:43 +0300, "Markku Grönroos"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti viestissä
    > >news:[email protected].. .
    > >> On 21 Sep 2004 11:26:58 GMT, Martin Bienwald
    > >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Miguel Cruz schrieb:
    > >> >
    > >> >> In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    > >> >> red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    > >> >
    > >> >They do stop regularly for pedestrians, which is a lot more than many
    > >> >European drivers do ...
    > >>
    > >> Finns stop for pedestrians with considrable universality; it was
    > >> a bit of a shock for me, even after living for 16 years in the SF
    > >> Bay area.
    > >>
    > >It is just funny that someone finds it shocking when cars stop at red
    > >lights.
    > Crosswalks are not always at red lights, you know.
And you rely on the Finnish drivers when crossing a road at such a point?
Finns are actually pretty notorious in this for instance when compared to
their Swedish collagues. I would say that by far MOST drivers do not drive
you over only if you stand on the kerb. They typically do so even when
another car[s] into the same direction are stopped in front of a zebra
crossing, which is about as sinful an act as a driver can commit to himself.

Hatunen

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:36:11 +0300, "Markku Grönroos"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti viestissä
    >news:[email protected].. .

    >> >It is just funny that someone finds it shocking when cars stop at red
    >> >lights.
    >> Crosswalks are not always at red lights, you know.
    >And you rely on the Finnish drivers when crossing a road at such a point?
    >Finns are actually pretty notorious in this for instance when compared to
    >their Swedish collagues. I would say that by far MOST drivers do not drive
    >you over only if you stand on the kerb. They typically do so even when
    >another car[s] into the same direction are stopped in front of a zebra
    >crossing, which is about as sinful an act as a driver can commit to himself.
I'm having trouble parsing that paragraph, but if I understand
what you said, I will say that Finnish drivers have been quite
good about stopping as soon as I set my foot off the curb.

************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Julie

On 18 Sep 2004 23:53:21 -0700, [email protected] (Cindy Mao)
wrote:

    >I am not a native English speaker. Are you interested in why I am
    >here? Actually this is my homework to discuss with you guys through
    >the newsgroups. Confused? It is really hard for me to explain it to
    >you. In short, now I am experiencing using the newsgroups.

So you have been taught to cross-post messages in newsgroups, even
though this is completely against netiquette?



--

Julie S

Miguel Cruz

Bill Moore <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> I found driving in California and Nevada safer than anywhere else I
    >>> have driven in the world.
    >> In Palo Alto, nobody goes faster than 5mph and they stop for butterflies
    > I agree, though I'm not sure this makes it safe (or if you were
    > implying that it does).
    >> crossing the road. In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    >> red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    > I'm less sure that I agree with this.

As someone who is primarily a pedestrian and bicyclist I am very sensitive
to driver behavior (since my life is in their hands). I don't know of
anywhere in the US with worse red-light obedience than San Francisco proper.
At night people just blow through them at full speed like they're not there.
In the daytime you'll often see three or four cars speed through after the
opposing light is clearly green. In part this may be due to the lack of
clearing time (a few seconds of red in all four directions), a safety
measure tragically underused in San Francisco.

Anyway, I don't think either of the two extremes is particularly safe. My
idea of a traffic utopia is somewhere where everyone follows the rules to
the letter (excepting completely unantcipated emergencies, of course)), so
that their behavior is 100% predictable. I am looking forward to the science
fiction future when cars are controlled by computers that take suggestions
about how to drive rather than yielding direct control to humans, who
clearly are unable to keep their personality problems from interfering with
safety on the road.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 31 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu

Icono Clast

Miguel Cruz wrote:
    > Bill Moore <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:>>
    >>><[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>>I found driving in California and Nevada safer than anywhere else I
    >>>>have driven in the world.
    >>>In Palo Alto, nobody goes faster than 5mph and they stop for butterflies

They usually do 50 in a 45 and run red lights.

    >>>crossing the road. In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    >>>red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    >>I'm less sure that I agree with this.

I sure don't. Yes, from time to time I see people ignoring red
lights. On the way home a bit before Sunday Midnight, it was one of
those things with a bumper at the height of my head who rode my rear
window for a few blocks then crossed Market Street from Montgomery
Street through a light that had been red for at least a second before
he got to it. It then turned Right onto Mission Street, without
slowing much, through a red light.

    > I don't know of anywhere in the US with worse red-light obedience than San
> Francisco

Try Philadelphia!
__________________________________________________ __________
A San Franciscan in (where else?) San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net

Markku Grönroos

"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti viestissä
news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > I'm having trouble parsing that paragraph, but if I understand
    > what you said, I will say that Finnish drivers have been quite
    > good about stopping as soon as I set my foot off the curb.
You are alive to write these texts. Finnish mobilists have improved a lot
during the last decades. However, the fact is that too many pedestrians get
injured or even worse in Finland. Naturally the situation is much worse in
about all Asians countries for instance, where the discipline is very poor.
However, when compared to other Western European countries or more
specifically to other Nordic countries, Finland certainly is not an ideal
example about considerate car drivers towards pedestrians.

In early 1970's the effective frequency for traffic deaths in Finland was
surmounted in Western Europe only by West Germany.

Devil

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:12:17 +0100, Julie wrote:

    > On 18 Sep 2004 23:53:21 -0700, [email protected] (Cindy Mao)
    > wrote:
    >
    >>I am not a native English speaker. Are you interested in why I am
    >>here? Actually this is my homework to discuss with you guys through
    >>the newsgroups. Confused? It is really hard for me to explain it to
    >>you. In short, now I am experiencing using the newsgroups.
    >
    > So you have been taught to cross-post messages in newsgroups, even
    > though this is completely against netiquette?


Uh?

Bill Moore

In article <[email protected]>,
Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Bill Moore <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> Miguel Cruz <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>> I found driving in California and Nevada safer than anywhere else I
    >>>> have driven in the world.
    >>> In Palo Alto, nobody goes faster than 5mph and they stop for butterflies
    >> I agree, though I'm not sure this makes it safe (or if you were
    >> implying that it does).
    >>> crossing the road. In San Francisco you couldn't get someone to stop for a
    >>> red light if you put a freight train in the way.
    >> I'm less sure that I agree with this.
    >As someone who is primarily a pedestrian and bicyclist I am very sensitive
    >to driver behavior (since my life is in their hands). I don't know of
    >anywhere in the US with worse red-light obedience than San Francisco proper.
    >At night people just blow through them at full speed like they're not there.
    >In the daytime you'll often see three or four cars speed through after the
    >opposing light is clearly green. In part this may be due to the lack of
    >clearing time (a few seconds of red in all four directions), a safety
    >measure tragically underused in San Francisco.

Agree about the 3-4 cars flying through after the light has changed.
I've also heard that the police were planing to crack down on that
but I'm not sure to what extent it's happened. I know there have been
a few pedestrian deaths in the last year or so that have focused attention
on the problem.


    >Anyway, I don't think either of the two extremes is particularly safe. My
    >idea of a traffic utopia is somewhere where everyone follows the rules to
    >the letter (excepting completely unantcipated emergencies, of course)), so
    >that their behavior is 100% predictable. I am looking forward to the science
    >fiction future when cars are controlled by computers that take suggestions
    >about how to drive rather than yielding direct control to humans, who
    >clearly are unable to keep their personality problems from interfering with
    >safety on the road.
    >miguel
    >--
    >Hit The Road! Photos from 31 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu

Bill Jackson

What are you interested in?

Hatunen

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 01:28:59 -0500, [email protected] (Miguel Cruz)
wrote:


    >As someone who is primarily a pedestrian and bicyclist I am very sensitive
    >to driver behavior (since my life is in their hands). I don't know of
    >anywhere in the US with worse red-light obedience than San Francisco proper.
    >At night people just blow through them at full speed like they're not there.
    >In the daytime you'll often see three or four cars speed through after the
    >opposing light is clearly green. In part this may be due to the lack of
    >clearing time (a few seconds of red in all four directions), a safety
    >measure tragically underused in San Francisco.

I spent 16 years on the northern Peninsula, including a lot of
time in SF, and I can say with some assurance that red-light
running is nothing in SF compared to Tucson.

    >Anyway, I don't think either of the two extremes is particularly safe. My
    >idea of a traffic utopia is somewhere where everyone follows the rules to
    >the letter (excepting completely unantcipated emergencies, of course)), so
    >that their behavior is 100% predictable.

I do hope, then, that you are not one of those cyclists who
pedals across in int crosswalk when the walk light is on, and you
always come to a full stop at stop signs.

Personally, I've never seen a cyclist who came even close to
obeying the traffic laws, but I reckon they may exist.


************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *