Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Oct 30th 2004, 9:48 am
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Rod Speed wrote:
>"Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>>My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>>Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>>>
>
>>That is an exception, not the rule (two weeks is the average).
>>
>I doubt it, particularly with those who actually do get vacations, as
>opposed to those employed casually or who work for themselves etc.
>
Sigh--so I guess you didn't bother to actually do research or even read
the links that I posted verifying this. From these various sources:
"Statisticians say American vacations are the shortest in the
industrialized world: 8.1 days a year. That's just enough to be above
the British poverty line.
The result, says the International Labor Organization, is that Americans
work twelve weeks a year more than Europeans."
"It's well-documented that Americans work more and play less than
citizens of any other industrialized nation. The 14 days of paid
vacation and holidays received on average by U.S. workers are but half
of what their counterparts get in many European countries, where
employers generally must provide at least four weeks of paid leave
annually."
"The average number of vacation days provided for new employees is 10
per year, with increases to 15 after five years and 20 after 10 to 15
years. Vacation time is accrued on a monthly or quarterly basis, and
most companies use a calendar year to make their recordkeeping easier."
>
>>I am not condoning the stupid comment about Americans, but it is well known
>>that we get on the average get less vacation and work longer hours than any
>>other industrial country.
>>
>That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
No it is not. Do some homework. We have now surpassed Japan in days we work.
"In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours,
becoming the workaholics of the world."
>
>>Americans call a lot of vacation time being lazy and unproductive, Europeans
>>call it quality of life.
>>
>Its nothing like as black and white as that.
Close.
>
>>There has always been very different views on "quality of life" between
>>Europeans and the US.
>>
>Wrong again, particularly back say 150 years ago.
We are talking about the present.
>
>>I remember seeing a study that was done asking people if they could choose
>>between getting a few more weeks off or getting a few extra weeks salary which
>>would they take? Americans took the money.
>>
>But clearly quite a few choose not to. And lets not forget the 60s.
Again. We are talking about the present.
You don't do much actual reading do you?
>
>>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in634664.shtml
>>http://www.post-gazette.com/lifestyl...tion0824p1.asp
>>http://money.howstuffworks.com/benefits3.htm
>>http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate...ts/6049680.htm
>>http://www.commonground.ca/iss/04101...9_Europe.shtml
>>
>
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
>"Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>>My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>>Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>>>
>
>>That is an exception, not the rule (two weeks is the average).
>>
>I doubt it, particularly with those who actually do get vacations, as
>opposed to those employed casually or who work for themselves etc.
>
Sigh--so I guess you didn't bother to actually do research or even read
the links that I posted verifying this. From these various sources:
"Statisticians say American vacations are the shortest in the
industrialized world: 8.1 days a year. That's just enough to be above
the British poverty line.
The result, says the International Labor Organization, is that Americans
work twelve weeks a year more than Europeans."
"It's well-documented that Americans work more and play less than
citizens of any other industrialized nation. The 14 days of paid
vacation and holidays received on average by U.S. workers are but half
of what their counterparts get in many European countries, where
employers generally must provide at least four weeks of paid leave
annually."
"The average number of vacation days provided for new employees is 10
per year, with increases to 15 after five years and 20 after 10 to 15
years. Vacation time is accrued on a monthly or quarterly basis, and
most companies use a calendar year to make their recordkeeping easier."
>
>>I am not condoning the stupid comment about Americans, but it is well known
>>that we get on the average get less vacation and work longer hours than any
>>other industrial country.
>>
>That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
No it is not. Do some homework. We have now surpassed Japan in days we work.
"In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours,
becoming the workaholics of the world."
>
>>Americans call a lot of vacation time being lazy and unproductive, Europeans
>>call it quality of life.
>>
>Its nothing like as black and white as that.
Close.
>
>>There has always been very different views on "quality of life" between
>>Europeans and the US.
>>
>Wrong again, particularly back say 150 years ago.
We are talking about the present.
>
>>I remember seeing a study that was done asking people if they could choose
>>between getting a few more weeks off or getting a few extra weeks salary which
>>would they take? Americans took the money.
>>
>But clearly quite a few choose not to. And lets not forget the 60s.
Again. We are talking about the present.
You don't do much actual reading do you?
>
>>http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in634664.shtml
>>http://www.post-gazette.com/lifestyl...tion0824p1.asp
>>http://money.howstuffworks.com/benefits3.htm
>>http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate...ts/6049680.htm
>>http://www.commonground.ca/iss/04101...9_Europe.shtml
>>
>
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
Oct 30th 2004, 9:54 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>
>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>
> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
Then they are not doing their fact checking. The ILO says otherwise.
http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>
>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>
> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
Then they are not doing their fact checking. The ILO says otherwise.
http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
Oct 30th 2004, 10:02 am
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Sara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>>
>>That is an exception, not the rule (two weeks is the average).
>>
> Two weeks is the average only for entry-level jobs. Bureau of Labor
> Statistics (www.bls.gov) has a ton of data on paid vacation time
> (nothing more recent than 1997-98, though). For example, the average
> paid vacation time (this doesn't include paid personal leave days and
> sick days) after 10 years of service is 16.9 days (almost 3.5 weeks)
> for employees in private establishments, 18.6 days for employees of
> state and local governments.
Average for 10 years of service! How many Americans are staying at
companies for 10 years these days?
The average American worker gets two weeks and it does not mean only
entry-level workers. That statement is correct. They don't even reach
an average of 13.5 days until they've been at a company for 5 years.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/1999/nov/wk2/art02.htm
> For what it's worth, I worked for a couple of private companies in
> the US, and both times my vacation started at 15 workdays per year
> plus several personal leave days, and increased at the rate of 1-2
> days per year.
>
>>I am not
>>condoning the stupid comment about Americans, but it is well known that
>>we get on the average get less vacation and work longer hours than any
>>other industrial country.
>>
> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>
You are incorrect.
http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
>In article <[email protected]>, Sara <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>>
>>That is an exception, not the rule (two weeks is the average).
>>
> Two weeks is the average only for entry-level jobs. Bureau of Labor
> Statistics (www.bls.gov) has a ton of data on paid vacation time
> (nothing more recent than 1997-98, though). For example, the average
> paid vacation time (this doesn't include paid personal leave days and
> sick days) after 10 years of service is 16.9 days (almost 3.5 weeks)
> for employees in private establishments, 18.6 days for employees of
> state and local governments.
Average for 10 years of service! How many Americans are staying at
companies for 10 years these days?
The average American worker gets two weeks and it does not mean only
entry-level workers. That statement is correct. They don't even reach
an average of 13.5 days until they've been at a company for 5 years.
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/1999/nov/wk2/art02.htm
> For what it's worth, I worked for a couple of private companies in
> the US, and both times my vacation started at 15 workdays per year
> plus several personal leave days, and increased at the rate of 1-2
> days per year.
>
>>I am not
>>condoning the stupid comment about Americans, but it is well known that
>>we get on the average get less vacation and work longer hours than any
>>other industrial country.
>>
> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>
You are incorrect.
http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
Oct 30th 2004, 10:08 am
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
> Two weeks is the average only for entry-level jobs. Bureau of Labor
> Statistics (www.bls.gov) has a ton of data on paid vacation time
> (nothing more recent than 1997-98, though). For example, the average
> paid vacation time (this doesn't include paid personal leave days and
> sick days) after 10 years of service is 16.9 days (almost 3.5 weeks)
> for employees in private establishments, 18.6 days for employees of
> state and local governments.
And in today's Bush environment, working for a single company for
ten years is almost impossible. Being laid-off is quite common. And
after you are laid-off, your vacation clock starts from scratch. I have
only received personal days from one of the companies I worked for.
> For what it's worth, I worked for a couple of private companies in
> the US, and both times my vacation started at 15 workdays per year
> plus several personal leave days, and increased at the rate of 1-2
> days per year.
And to counter that, I have worked for companies where vacation
started at two weeks and did not extend upwards for many years.
Sick time was lumped in with all categories of "lost time" and we
were expected to make up all lost time through unpaid overtime.
This was as a salaried employee for a Fortune 500 corporation,
by the way.
Pete
> Statistics (www.bls.gov) has a ton of data on paid vacation time
> (nothing more recent than 1997-98, though). For example, the average
> paid vacation time (this doesn't include paid personal leave days and
> sick days) after 10 years of service is 16.9 days (almost 3.5 weeks)
> for employees in private establishments, 18.6 days for employees of
> state and local governments.
And in today's Bush environment, working for a single company for
ten years is almost impossible. Being laid-off is quite common. And
after you are laid-off, your vacation clock starts from scratch. I have
only received personal days from one of the companies I worked for.
> For what it's worth, I worked for a couple of private companies in
> the US, and both times my vacation started at 15 workdays per year
> plus several personal leave days, and increased at the rate of 1-2
> days per year.
And to counter that, I have worked for companies where vacation
started at two weeks and did not extend upwards for many years.
Sick time was lumped in with all categories of "lost time" and we
were expected to make up all lost time through unpaid overtime.
This was as a salaried employee for a Fortune 500 corporation,
by the way.
Pete
Oct 30th 2004, 10:33 am
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 14:47:31 -0500, Auntie Em <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>Oh really?
>So HOW MANY YEARS have you (and your husband), been getting up every
>single morning and gone to the same, boring, useless job in order to
>obtain these wonderful vacations?
>Not brainwashed? Are you so sure about that?
Well, Im not the OP, but about five years (and I get four, not six
weeks, and all holidays ooff)
And fortunatlely, my job isnt boring. Is yours??
>Em
>Be careful what you wish for....
wrote:
>>My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>Oh really?
>So HOW MANY YEARS have you (and your husband), been getting up every
>single morning and gone to the same, boring, useless job in order to
>obtain these wonderful vacations?
>Not brainwashed? Are you so sure about that?
Well, Im not the OP, but about five years (and I get four, not six
weeks, and all holidays ooff)
And fortunatlely, my job isnt boring. Is yours??
>Em
>Be careful what you wish for....
Oct 30th 2004, 10:55 am
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Sara <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Sara <[email protected]> wrote
>>>> My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>>> Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>>> That is an exception, not the rule (two weeks is the average).
>> I doubt it, particularly with those who actually do get vacations, as
>> opposed to those employed casually or who work for themselves etc.
> Sigh--so I guess you didn't bother to actually do research or even read the
> links that I posted verifying this.
Guess again. Most of them are the usual mindlessly superficial
journalism, that cant even manage to get the basics right.
Particularly when starting with 2 weeks is very common, its
simple math that its unlikely to be 2 weeks on average when
plenty of operations give more after you've been their longer
and other huge swathes of employment like govt has more.
> From these various sources:
> "Statisticians say
Usual utterly mindless superficial journalistic bullshit.
No cite for that claim either.
> American vacations are the shortest in the industrialized world:
Even that is arguable with what is actually taken compared with the
Japs who are notorious for not taking all they are entitled to take.
> 8.1 days a year.
Pity thats just some number waved around without even specifying
if that includes those in casual jobs that done get any vacation time.
> That's just enough to be above the British poverty line.
The 'poverty line' is completely irrelevant. Most of those in
real poverty dont even work at all, thats why they are povs.
> The result, says the International Labor Organization,
Which has always had a particular barrow to push.
> is that Americans work twelve weeks a year more than Europeans."
Those numbers dont even add up. If your purported average of
two weeks in the US is correct, that means that the european
average is actually 14 weeks vacation and even you should be able
to grasp that that doesnt happen with very many europeans at all.
> "It's well-documented that Americans work more and play less than citizens of
> any other industrialized nation.
Separate issue entirely to YOUR comment about an average
of 2 weeks which is what I chose to comment on there.
> The 14 days of paid vacation and holidays received on average by U.S. workers
Again, no cite on where that number is coming from and that
number is nothing like YOUR claim of two weeks which is 10 days.
Just quoting what some damned journo spews cuts no mustard.
> are but half of what their counterparts get in many European countries,
Even you should have noticed the discrepency between that particular
claim and the one you previously quoted the ILO claiming.
> where employers generally must provide at least four weeks of paid leave
> annually."
I didnt dispute that western europeans are generally entitled to more
vacation time, I JUST commented on your 2 week average claim for
the US which you clearly mindlessly just got from some damned journo.
Soorree, just because it appears in some
rag doesnt make it gospel any time soon.
> "The average number of vacation days provided for new employees is 10 per
> year, with increases to 15 after five years and 20 after 10 to 15 years.
And this bit alone blows a damned great hole in your original average 2
weeks claim, when that is in fact just the average FOR NEW EMPLOYEES.
Even you should be able to grasp that there must be some employees
who have been with the organisation for more than 5 years, and so the
average over all cant possibly be 2 weeks vacation time. Basic math.
> Vacation time is accrued on a monthly or quarterly basis, and most companies
> use a calendar year to make their recordkeeping easier."
>>> I am not condoning the stupid comment about Americans, but it is well known
>>> that we get on the average get less vacation and work longer hours than any
>>> other industrial country.
>> That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
> No it is not.
Yes it is.
> Do some homework.
Dont need to.
> We have now surpassed Japan in days we work.
Different number to the original claim you made.
> "In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours, becoming
> the workaholics of the world."
Just another journo spewing without even a cite to backup that claim.
And I was actually commenting on the 'get less vacation'
bit, not the hours worked, because it was clearly the
vacation time that is the subject of this thread.
>>> Americans call a lot of vacation time being lazy and unproductive, Europeans
>>> call it quality of life.
>> Its nothing like as black and white as that.
> Close.
Nope, just another example of mindlessly superficial silly stuff.
>>> There has always been very different views on "quality of life" between
>>> Europeans and the US.
>> Wrong again, particularly back say 150 years ago.
> We are talking about the present.
Clearly that is NOT what the words 'There has always been' mean.
>>> I remember seeing a study that was done asking people if they could choose
>>> between getting a few more weeks off or getting a few extra weeks salary
>>> which would they take? Americans took the money.
>> But clearly quite a few choose not to. And lets not forget the 60s.
> Again. We are talking about the present.
Again, clearly that is NOT what the words 'There has always been' mean.
> You don't do much actual reading do you?
You couldnt actually bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag,
even if your pathetic excuse for a 'life' depended on it, could you ?
>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in634664.shtml
>>> http://www.post-gazette.com/lifestyl...tion0824p1.asp
>>> http://money.howstuffworks.com/benefits3.htm
>>> http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate...ts/6049680.htm
>>> http://www.commonground.ca/iss/04101...9_Europe.shtml
message news:[email protected]...
> Rod Speed wrote
>> Sara <[email protected]> wrote
>>>> My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>>>> Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>>> That is an exception, not the rule (two weeks is the average).
>> I doubt it, particularly with those who actually do get vacations, as
>> opposed to those employed casually or who work for themselves etc.
> Sigh--so I guess you didn't bother to actually do research or even read the
> links that I posted verifying this.
Guess again. Most of them are the usual mindlessly superficial
journalism, that cant even manage to get the basics right.
Particularly when starting with 2 weeks is very common, its
simple math that its unlikely to be 2 weeks on average when
plenty of operations give more after you've been their longer
and other huge swathes of employment like govt has more.
> From these various sources:
> "Statisticians say
Usual utterly mindless superficial journalistic bullshit.
No cite for that claim either.
> American vacations are the shortest in the industrialized world:
Even that is arguable with what is actually taken compared with the
Japs who are notorious for not taking all they are entitled to take.
> 8.1 days a year.
Pity thats just some number waved around without even specifying
if that includes those in casual jobs that done get any vacation time.
> That's just enough to be above the British poverty line.
The 'poverty line' is completely irrelevant. Most of those in
real poverty dont even work at all, thats why they are povs.
> The result, says the International Labor Organization,
Which has always had a particular barrow to push.
> is that Americans work twelve weeks a year more than Europeans."
Those numbers dont even add up. If your purported average of
two weeks in the US is correct, that means that the european
average is actually 14 weeks vacation and even you should be able
to grasp that that doesnt happen with very many europeans at all.
> "It's well-documented that Americans work more and play less than citizens of
> any other industrialized nation.
Separate issue entirely to YOUR comment about an average
of 2 weeks which is what I chose to comment on there.
> The 14 days of paid vacation and holidays received on average by U.S. workers
Again, no cite on where that number is coming from and that
number is nothing like YOUR claim of two weeks which is 10 days.
Just quoting what some damned journo spews cuts no mustard.
> are but half of what their counterparts get in many European countries,
Even you should have noticed the discrepency between that particular
claim and the one you previously quoted the ILO claiming.
> where employers generally must provide at least four weeks of paid leave
> annually."
I didnt dispute that western europeans are generally entitled to more
vacation time, I JUST commented on your 2 week average claim for
the US which you clearly mindlessly just got from some damned journo.
Soorree, just because it appears in some
rag doesnt make it gospel any time soon.
> "The average number of vacation days provided for new employees is 10 per
> year, with increases to 15 after five years and 20 after 10 to 15 years.
And this bit alone blows a damned great hole in your original average 2
weeks claim, when that is in fact just the average FOR NEW EMPLOYEES.
Even you should be able to grasp that there must be some employees
who have been with the organisation for more than 5 years, and so the
average over all cant possibly be 2 weeks vacation time. Basic math.
> Vacation time is accrued on a monthly or quarterly basis, and most companies
> use a calendar year to make their recordkeeping easier."
>>> I am not condoning the stupid comment about Americans, but it is well known
>>> that we get on the average get less vacation and work longer hours than any
>>> other industrial country.
>> That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
> No it is not.
Yes it is.
> Do some homework.
Dont need to.
> We have now surpassed Japan in days we work.
Different number to the original claim you made.
> "In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours, becoming
> the workaholics of the world."
Just another journo spewing without even a cite to backup that claim.
And I was actually commenting on the 'get less vacation'
bit, not the hours worked, because it was clearly the
vacation time that is the subject of this thread.
>>> Americans call a lot of vacation time being lazy and unproductive, Europeans
>>> call it quality of life.
>> Its nothing like as black and white as that.
> Close.
Nope, just another example of mindlessly superficial silly stuff.
>>> There has always been very different views on "quality of life" between
>>> Europeans and the US.
>> Wrong again, particularly back say 150 years ago.
> We are talking about the present.
Clearly that is NOT what the words 'There has always been' mean.
>>> I remember seeing a study that was done asking people if they could choose
>>> between getting a few more weeks off or getting a few extra weeks salary
>>> which would they take? Americans took the money.
>> But clearly quite a few choose not to. And lets not forget the 60s.
> Again. We are talking about the present.
Again, clearly that is NOT what the words 'There has always been' mean.
> You don't do much actual reading do you?
You couldnt actually bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag,
even if your pathetic excuse for a 'life' depended on it, could you ?
>>> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in634664.shtml
>>> http://www.post-gazette.com/lifestyl...tion0824p1.asp
>>> http://money.howstuffworks.com/benefits3.htm
>>> http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate...ts/6049680.htm
>>> http://www.commonground.ca/iss/04101...9_Europe.shtml
Oct 30th 2004, 11:00 am
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
"Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
> Then they are not doing their fact checking.
Is that right ?
> The ILO says otherwise.
The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
> http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
> http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
> http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
> http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
> http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
All just mindlessly respouting the ILO line without even bothering to
mention the OECD numbers that produce a completely different result.
I'll take The Economist over those rags any day thanks.
> Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
> Then they are not doing their fact checking.
Is that right ?
> The ILO says otherwise.
The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
> http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
> http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
> http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
> http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
> http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
All just mindlessly respouting the ILO line without even bothering to
mention the OECD numbers that produce a completely different result.
I'll take The Economist over those rags any day thanks.
Oct 30th 2004, 11:06 am
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Rod Speed wrote:
>Sara <[email protected]> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>>
>
>>>That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
>>>
>
>>No it is not.
>>
>Yes it is.
>
>>Do some homework.
>>
>Dont need to.
Yeah, you do. Your opinion just doesn't make it so Sparky.
http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
>
>>"In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours, becoming
>>the workaholics of the world."
>>
>Just another journo spewing without even a cite to backup that claim.
And you're just another Usenet poster spewing without even a cite to
back up your claims. Let's see 'em.
>
>Sara <[email protected]> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>>
>
>>>That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
>>>
>
>>No it is not.
>>
>Yes it is.
>
>>Do some homework.
>>
>Dont need to.
Yeah, you do. Your opinion just doesn't make it so Sparky.
http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
>
>>"In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours, becoming
>>the workaholics of the world."
>>
>Just another journo spewing without even a cite to backup that claim.
And you're just another Usenet poster spewing without even a cite to
back up your claims. Let's see 'em.
>
Oct 30th 2004, 11:23 am
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Rod Speed wrote:
>"
>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>>>
>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>>
>
>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
>>
>Is that right ?
>
>>The ILO says otherwise.
>>
>The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
>I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
>
>>
>>
Really? Ok. Read it and find that you are wrong.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/8/51/2080270.pdf
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
>"
>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>>>
>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>>
>
>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
>>
>Is that right ?
>
>>The ILO says otherwise.
>>
>The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
>I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
>
>>
>>
Really? Ok. Read it and find that you are wrong.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/8/51/2080270.pdf
--
"Too many OB/GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country.'' -- George Bush, Sept 7
Oct 30th 2004, 11:27 am
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
The most likely thing is that they are using different definitions. For
example, if you include part time workers then a difference in the
proportion that is partially employed will have an effect. Another
simpler possibility is that they are using different meanings of
"average" median vs mean. Anyone inclined to look up the reports?
Rod Speed wrote:
> "Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
> Is that right ?
>>The ILO says otherwise.
> The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
> I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
>
>>http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
>
>
>>http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
>
>
>>http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
>
>
>>http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
>
>
>>http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
>
> All just mindlessly respouting the ILO line without even bothering to
> mention the OECD numbers that produce a completely different result.
>
> I'll take The Economist over those rags any day thanks.
>
>
example, if you include part time workers then a difference in the
proportion that is partially employed will have an effect. Another
simpler possibility is that they are using different meanings of
"average" median vs mean. Anyone inclined to look up the reports?
Rod Speed wrote:
> "Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>>Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
> Is that right ?
>>The ILO says otherwise.
> The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
> I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
>
>>http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
>
>
>>http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
>
>
>>http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
>
>
>>http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
>
>
>>http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>
>
> All just mindlessly respouting the ILO line without even bothering to
> mention the OECD numbers that produce a completely different result.
>
> I'll take The Economist over those rags any day thanks.
>
>
Oct 30th 2004, 11:28 am
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Phyl wrote:
>
> Jacques Chirac wrote:
>
> > Jonathan wrote:
> >
> >
> >>When an American friend told me people in the US only have two weeks
> >>of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it. He said yeah but
> >>we get paid public holidays.
> >>
> >>In the UK we get 4 to 5 weeks paid leave plus public holidays . Other
> >>countries like France get 5 to 6 weeks plus public holidays. Plus
> >>they only work 35 hours per week yet they are one of the most
> >>productive countries in the world.
> >>
> >>If this is true about the US, how can the average American live under
> >>such a system and not lose their mind???
> >>
> >>Life can't all be about work. It seems such a system would breed
> >>highly neurotic and hysterical people. I wouldn't want to live like
> >>that no matter how much they paid me.
> >
> >
> > Everybody around the world knows that Americans are highly neurotic
> > and hysterical - and now you have discovered the reason.
> >
> > Americans live to work. The rest of the people in the world work to
> > live.
> >
> > Americans don't have enough vacation time to travel to other countries
> > and see how other people live so they think they live in "the best
> > country in the world" and other such propaganda that their government
> > feeds them. They don't know that many millions of people live better,
> > especially in Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland, etc.
> >
> > Americans are ignorant and their government likes it that way, it
> > makes it easier to brainwash them.
>
> My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>
> Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>
> --
> Phyl
LOL! And not typical either. Although admittedly every time I've worked
in the US I did have at least 4 weeks holiday from work.
Not referring to you personally, but of course people who are ignorant
don't *know* that that they are and people who are brainwashed don't
*know* that they are either :)
>
> Jacques Chirac wrote:
>
> > Jonathan wrote:
> >
> >
> >>When an American friend told me people in the US only have two weeks
> >>of paid leave PER YEAR I could scarcely believe it. He said yeah but
> >>we get paid public holidays.
> >>
> >>In the UK we get 4 to 5 weeks paid leave plus public holidays . Other
> >>countries like France get 5 to 6 weeks plus public holidays. Plus
> >>they only work 35 hours per week yet they are one of the most
> >>productive countries in the world.
> >>
> >>If this is true about the US, how can the average American live under
> >>such a system and not lose their mind???
> >>
> >>Life can't all be about work. It seems such a system would breed
> >>highly neurotic and hysterical people. I wouldn't want to live like
> >>that no matter how much they paid me.
> >
> >
> > Everybody around the world knows that Americans are highly neurotic
> > and hysterical - and now you have discovered the reason.
> >
> > Americans live to work. The rest of the people in the world work to
> > live.
> >
> > Americans don't have enough vacation time to travel to other countries
> > and see how other people live so they think they live in "the best
> > country in the world" and other such propaganda that their government
> > feeds them. They don't know that many millions of people live better,
> > especially in Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Iceland, etc.
> >
> > Americans are ignorant and their government likes it that way, it
> > makes it easier to brainwash them.
>
> My husband gets six weeks of vacation, I get four.
>
> Not ignorant, not brainwashed. Next?
>
> --
> Phyl
LOL! And not typical either. Although admittedly every time I've worked
in the US I did have at least 4 weeks holiday from work.
Not referring to you personally, but of course people who are ignorant
don't *know* that that they are and people who are brainwashed don't
*know* that they are either :)
Oct 30th 2004, 11:48 am
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
"Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>>Sara <[email protected]> wrote in
>>message news:[email protected]...
>>>>That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
>>>No it is not.
>>Yes it is.
>>>Do some homework.
>>Dont need to.
> Yeah, you do. Your opinion just doesn't make it so Sparky.
You carefully deleting all the massive holes pointed out in
the crap you quoted cuts no mustard what so ever, Sary.
> http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
> http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
> http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
> http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
> http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
Completely useless on the particular silly claim you made,
that the average for the US is 2 weeks vacation.
>>> "In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours, becoming
>>> the workaholics of the world."
>> Just another journo spewing without even a cite to backup that claim.
> And you're just another Usenet poster spewing without even a cite to back up
> your claims.
Dont need to with the basic maths that I rubbed your
nose in and you carefully deleted from that quoting.
> Let's see 'em.
You just deleted the basic maths I rubbed your nose in.
> Rod Speed wrote:
>>Sara <[email protected]> wrote in
>>message news:[email protected]...
>>>>That is just plain wrong, most obviously with Japan.
>>>No it is not.
>>Yes it is.
>>>Do some homework.
>>Dont need to.
> Yeah, you do. Your opinion just doesn't make it so Sparky.
You carefully deleting all the massive holes pointed out in
the crap you quoted cuts no mustard what so ever, Sary.
> http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
> http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
> http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
> http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
> http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
Completely useless on the particular silly claim you made,
that the average for the US is 2 weeks vacation.
>>> "In 1996, Americans surpassed the Japanese in our long work hours, becoming
>>> the workaholics of the world."
>> Just another journo spewing without even a cite to backup that claim.
> And you're just another Usenet poster spewing without even a cite to back up
> your claims.
Dont need to with the basic maths that I rubbed your
nose in and you carefully deleted from that quoting.
> Let's see 'em.
You just deleted the basic maths I rubbed your nose in.
Oct 30th 2004, 11:54 am
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
"Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Rod Speed wrote:
>>"
>>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
>>Is that right ?
>>>The ILO says otherwise.
>>The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
>>I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
> Really?
Yes, really.
> Ok. Read it and find that you are wrong.
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/8/51/2080270.pdf
You're lying, again. It says nothing like what you claimed.
> Rod Speed wrote:
>>"
>>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
>>Is that right ?
>>>The ILO says otherwise.
>>The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
>>I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
> Really?
Yes, really.
> Ok. Read it and find that you are wrong.
> http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/8/51/2080270.pdf
You're lying, again. It says nothing like what you claimed.
Oct 30th 2004, 11:57 am
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote
in message news:[email protected]...
> The most likely thing is that they are using different definitions.
Correct. So its completely silly to proclaim that just because
the ILO claims it, thats absolutely guaranteed to be gospel.
> For example, if you include part time workers then a difference in the
> proportion that is partially employed will have an effect.
> Another simpler possibility is that they are using different meanings of
> "average" median vs mean. Anyone inclined to look up the reports?
The OECD report will do me fine. It says nothing like the ILO claim.
The ILO has always had a substantial bias in the numbers it
waves around. Hardly surprising given what the ILO is about.
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> "Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>>Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
>> Is that right ?
>>>The ILO says otherwise.
>> The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
>> I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
>>>http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
>>>http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
>>>http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
>>>http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
>>>http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>> All just mindlessly respouting the ILO line without even bothering to
>> mention the OECD numbers that produce a completely different result.
>> I'll take The Economist over those rags any day thanks.
>
in message news:[email protected]...
> The most likely thing is that they are using different definitions.
Correct. So its completely silly to proclaim that just because
the ILO claims it, thats absolutely guaranteed to be gospel.
> For example, if you include part time workers then a difference in the
> proportion that is partially employed will have an effect.
> Another simpler possibility is that they are using different meanings of
> "average" median vs mean. Anyone inclined to look up the reports?
The OECD report will do me fine. It says nothing like the ILO claim.
The ILO has always had a substantial bias in the numbers it
waves around. Hardly surprising given what the ILO is about.
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> "Sara" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>>Vitaly Shmatikov wrote:
>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>Frank F. Matthews <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Do Australia and Japan count as industrial countries? The average
>>>>>> worker there works longer hours than in the US.
>>>>>I don't know about Australia but if you check recent data the
>>>>>US is ahead of Japan.
>>>> I got it from the August 21-27 issue of the Economist that's been
>>>> lying around my office. It has a table of average annual hours per
>>>> worker for all OECD countries, and lists Australia, New Zealand,
>>>> Japan, and Spain ahead of the US. If you don't like the numbers,
>>>> complain to OECD (they are credited as the source of the table).
>>>Then they are not doing their fact checking.
>> Is that right ?
>>>The ILO says otherwise.
>> The ILO is hardly an unbiased source on stuff like that.
>> I'll take the OECD over the ILO any day.
>>>http://japanupdate.com/en/?id=4942
>>>http://www.poynter.org/dg.lts/id.2/aid.1940/column.htm
>>>http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/077.html
>>>http://www.shalomctr.org/freeourtime/labor03.html
>>>http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/we...ays_noovertime
>> All just mindlessly respouting the ILO line without even bothering to
>> mention the OECD numbers that produce a completely different result.
>> I'll take The Economist over those rags any day thanks.
>
Oct 30th 2004, 1:23 pm
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: AMERICANS ONLY GET TWO WEEKS VACATION PER YEAR???
> Particularly when starting with 2 weeks is very common, its [sic]
> simple math that its unlikely to be 2 weeks on average when
> plenty of operations give more after you've been their longer
> and other huge swathes of employment like govt has more.
Averages are just that, averages. Many people get no vacation at
all and that counter-balances the people with many weeks.
Pete
> simple math that its unlikely to be 2 weeks on average when
> plenty of operations give more after you've been their longer
> and other huge swathes of employment like govt has more.
Averages are just that, averages. Many people get no vacation at
all and that counter-balances the people with many weeks.
Pete
