Audet

I though I was pretty good at Italian pronunciation, but something I have
just come across has me puzzled. The David Hewson novel "The Villa of
Mysteries" has on page 2 the following line:

"...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on how wrong
it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way.

I thought the correct pronunciation of the words was with the Italian /a/
sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the novel
wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?

Thanks for any help.

Ron

Audet

Sorry about all the typos in my message. I was only half awake when I wrote
it.

Here is a corrected version:



----- Original Message -----
From: "Audet" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:44 PM
Subject: Question on Italian Pronunciation


    > I thought I was pretty good at Italian pronunciation, but something I have
    > just come across has me puzzled. The David Hewson novel "The Villa of
    > Mysteries" has on page 2 the following line:
    > "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on how
wrong
    > it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way."
    > I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the Italian /a/
    > sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the novel
    > wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?
    > Thanks for any help.

Ron

Dave Frightens Me

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:51:19 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >Sorry about all the typos in my message. I was only half awake when I wrote
    >it.
    >Here is a corrected version:
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "Audet" <[email protected]>
    >Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
    >Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:44 PM
    >Subject: Question on Italian Pronunciation
    >> I thought I was pretty good at Italian pronunciation, but something I have
    >> just come across has me puzzled. The David Hewson novel "The Villa of
    >> Mysteries" has on page 2 the following line:
    >> "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on how
    >wrong
    >> it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way."
    >> I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the Italian /a/
    >> sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the novel
    >> wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?

Americans say "pasta" with a different sound for each 'a'. Use the
sound of the second 'a' for both instances.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Runge

lol he's gonna teach us the italian pronounciation

"Dave Frightens Me" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> a �crit dans
le message de news: [email protected]...
    > On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:51:19 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >>Sorry about all the typos in my message. I was only half awake when I
    >>wrote
    >>it.
    >>Here is a corrected version:
    >>----- Original Message -----
    >>From: "Audet" <[email protected]>
    >>Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
    >>Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:44 PM
    >>Subject: Question on Italian Pronunciation
    >>> I thought I was pretty good at Italian pronunciation, but something I
    >>> have
    >>> just come across has me puzzled. The David Hewson novel "The Villa of
    >>> Mysteries" has on page 2 the following line:
    >>> "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on how
    >>wrong
    >>> it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way."
    >>> I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the Italian /a/
    >>> sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the novel
    >>> wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?
    > Americans say "pasta" with a different sound for each 'a'. Use the
    > sound of the second 'a' for both instances.
    > --
    > ---
    > DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
    > ---
    > --

Audet

"Dave Frightens Me" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
    > On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:51:19 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    > >Sorry about all the typos in my message. I was only half awake when I
wrote
    > >it.
    > >
    > >Here is a corrected version:
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >----- Original Message -----
    > >From: "Audet" <[email protected]>
    > >Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
    > >Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:44 PM
    > >Subject: Question on Italian Pronunciation
    > >
    > >
    > >> I thought I was pretty good at Italian pronunciation, but something I
have
    > >> just come across has me puzzled. The David Hewson novel "The Villa of
    > >> Mysteries" has on page 2 the following line:
    > >>
    > >> "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on how
    > >wrong
    > >> it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way."
    > >>
    > >> I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the Italian
/a/
    > >> sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the novel
    > >> wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?
    > Americans say "pasta" with a different sound for each 'a'. Use the
    > sound of the second 'a' for both instances.
    > --
    > ---
    > DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
    > ---
    > --

I'm not clear on what you mean here. If you are talking about pronouncing
the first /a/ with the flat sound of the vowel in "fat," then I have never
heard that in the US, though I have encountered it in England. All Americans
I know use the broad /a/ of "father" for both vowels.

Ron

{{{{{Welcome}}}}}

Thus spaketh Audet:
    > "Dave Frightens Me" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote
    > in message news:[email protected]...
    >> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:51:19 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >>> Sorry about all the typos in my message. I was only half awake when
    >>> I wrote it.
    >>> Here is a corrected version:
    >>> ----- Original Message -----
    >>> From: "Audet" <[email protected]>
    >>> Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
    >>> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:44 PM
    >>> Subject: Question on Italian Pronunciation
    >>>> I thought I was pretty good at Italian pronunciation, but
    >>>> something I have just come across has me puzzled. The David Hewson
    >>>> novel "The Villa of Mysteries" has on page 2 the following line:
    >>>> "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on
    >>>> how wrong it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the
    >>>> American way."
    >>>> I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the
    >>>> Italian /a/ sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the
    >>>> author of the novel wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of
    >>>> this common word?
    >> Americans say "pasta" with a different sound for each 'a'. Use the
    >> sound of the second 'a' for both instances.
    >> --
    >> ---
    >> DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
    >> ---
    >> --
    > I'm not clear on what you mean here. If you are talking about
    > pronouncing the first /a/ with the flat sound of the vowel in "fat,"
    > then I have never heard that in the US, though I have encountered it
    > in England. All Americans I know use the broad /a/ of "father" for
    > both vowels.
    > Ron

Being English I say pasta with the 1st a flat as you state as people say
in England, not broad as in the USA, as the broad a sounds wrong.

Dave Frightens Me

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:36:29 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >"Dave Frightens Me" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >message news:[email protected]...
    >> On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:51:19 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >> >Sorry about all the typos in my message. I was only half awake when I
    >wrote
    >> >it.
    >> >
    >> >Here is a corrected version:
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >----- Original Message -----
    >> >From: "Audet" <[email protected]>
    >> >Newsgroups: rec.travel.europe
    >> >Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:44 PM
    >> >Subject: Question on Italian Pronunciation
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >> I thought I was pretty good at Italian pronunciation, but something I
    >have
    >> >> just come across has me puzzled. The David Hewson novel "The Villa of
    >> >> Mysteries" has on page 2 the following line:
    >> >>
    >> >> "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on how
    >> >wrong
    >> >> it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way."
    >> >>
    >> >> I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the Italian
    >/a/
    >> >> sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the novel
    >> >> wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?
    >> Americans say "pasta" with a different sound for each 'a'. Use the
    >> sound of the second 'a' for both instances.
    >> --
    >> ---
    >> DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
    >> ---
    >> --
    >I'm not clear on what you mean here. If you are talking about pronouncing
    >the first /a/ with the flat sound of the vowel in "fat," then I have never
    >heard that in the US, though I have encountered it in England. All Americans
    >I know use the broad /a/ of "father" for both vowels.

Both 'a's are pronounced like in "America". I can't think of a better
example.
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--

Alan Harrison

"{{{{{Welcome}}}}}" <bhx___spam@trapped___hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]. uk...

    > Being English I say pasta with the 1st a flat as you state as people say
    > in England, not broad as in the USA, as the broad a sounds wrong.

I have frequently heard staff in British cafes pronounce "latte" as
"lah-tay" - Yank influence from Starbuck's????? (Not to mention the
possibilities for misunderstanding when people thinking "latte" is Italian
for a kind of coffee order it in Italy!)

Alan Harrison

Miss L. Toe

"ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "{{{{{Welcome}}}}}" <bhx___spam@trapped___hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]. uk...
    > > Being English I say pasta with the 1st a flat as you state as people say
    > > in England, not broad as in the USA, as the broad a sounds wrong.
    > I have frequently heard staff in British cafes pronounce "latte" as
    > "lah-tay" - Yank influence from Starbuck's????? (Not to mention the
    > possibilities for misunderstanding when people thinking "latte" is Italian
    > for a kind of coffee order it in Italy!)
    > Alan Harrison

Those are the people who get a shcok when ordering a pepperoni pizza in
Italy.

B Vaughan

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:36:29 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
wrote:

    >"Dave Frightens Me" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >message news:[email protected]...


    >> >> "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on how
    >> >wrong
    >> >> it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way."
    >> >>
    >> >> I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the Italian
    >/a/
    >> >> sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the novel
    >> >> wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?
    >> Americans say "pasta" with a different sound for each 'a'. Use the
    >> sound of the second 'a' for both instances.

    >I'm not clear on what you mean here. If you are talking about pronouncing
    >the first /a/ with the flat sound of the vowel in "fat," then I have never
    >heard that in the US, though I have encountered it in England. All Americans
    >I know use the broad /a/ of "father" for both vowels.

I think there are two different issues here. I think the waiter in the
book is complaining about people pronounce the "a" in "pasta" like the
"a" in "fat". 30 years ago, it was the most common pronunciation in
the US, and the Italian pronunciation sounded a bit affected. Now the
Italian pronunciation of the first "a" is probably the most common,
although I still hear the "fat a" fairly often.

However, I also agree with DFM (and disagree with you) about the
pronunciation of the second "a", even by those who get the first "a"
right. Almost all Americans actually say "pastuh". Listen to yourself
say it. It's very difficult for an English speaker (not just an
American) to get the vowels right in unstressed syllables. The
fictional waiter doesn't seem to be complaining about this, though,
because it's written "pahstah", with both vowels identical.

--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Ian Burton

"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:36:29 -0400, "Audet" <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >>"Dave Frightens Me" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >>message news:[email protected]...
    >>> >> "...the waiter [in a restaurant in Tuscany]...had lectured [us] on
    >>> >> how
    >>> >wrong
    >>> >> it was to pronounce the word "pasta" as "pahstah," the American way."
    >>> >>
    >>> >> I thought the correct pronunciation of the word was with the Italian
    >>/a/
    >>> >> sound as in "basta" or "casta." Am I wrong? Is the author of the
    >>> >> novel
    >>> >> wrong? What is the correct pronunciation of this common word?
    >>> Americans say "pasta" with a different sound for each 'a'. Use the
    >>> sound of the second 'a' for both instances.
    >>I'm not clear on what you mean here. If you are talking about pronouncing
    >>the first /a/ with the flat sound of the vowel in "fat," then I have never
    >>heard that in the US, though I have encountered it in England. All
    >>Americans
    >>I know use the broad /a/ of "father" for both vowels.
    > I think there are two different issues here. I think the waiter in the
    > book is complaining about people pronounce the "a" in "pasta" like the
    > "a" in "fat". 30 years ago, it was the most common pronunciation in
    > the US, and the Italian pronunciation sounded a bit affected. Now the
    > Italian pronunciation of the first "a" is probably the most common,
    > although I still hear the "fat a" fairly often.

I don't know where in the US 30 years ago you heard "pasta" pronounced with
the first "a" as in "fat," but in New York City I never heard it so
pronounced, not even 50 years ago. If people used the word, they pronounced
it correctly. People back then, though, generally didn't use the word.
--
Ian Burton
(Please reply to the Newsgroup)


    > However, I also agree with DFM (and disagree with you) about the
    > pronunciation of the second "a", even by those who get the first "a"
    > right. Almost all Americans actually say "pastuh". Listen to yourself
    > say it. It's very difficult for an English speaker (not just an
    > American) to get the vowels right in unstressed syllables. The
    > fictional waiter doesn't seem to be complaining about this, though,
    > because it's written "pahstah", with both vowels identical.
    > --
    > Barbara Vaughan
    > My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
    > it
    > I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

B Vaughan

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:54:19 -0700, "Ian Burton"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >I don't know where in the US 30 years ago you heard "pasta" pronounced with
    >the first "a" as in "fat," but in New York City I never heard it so
    >pronounced, not even 50 years ago. If people used the word, they pronounced
    >it correctly. People back then, though, generally didn't use the word.

Some of my relatives still pronounce it that way. Not that far from
New York, either.
--
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Audet

"B Vaughan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:54:19 -0700, "Ian Burton"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >I don't know where in the US 30 years ago you heard "pasta" pronounced
with
    > >the first "a" as in "fat," but in New York City I never heard it so
    > >pronounced, not even 50 years ago. If people used the word, they
pronounced
    > >it correctly. People back then, though, generally didn't use the word.
    > Some of my relatives still pronounce it that way. Not that far from
    > New York, either.
    > --
    > Barbara Vaughan
    > My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
it
    > I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

I am from Upstate New York (near Albany) and have lived most of my 67 years
in Virginia. I have never heard the short /a/ as in "fat" used in either
place, though, as I have indicated earlier, I often hear it in England.
Certainly the /a/ of "father" is far more common in the US.

Ron

Alan Harrison

"Audet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ...
    > I am from Upstate New York (near Albany) and have lived most of my 67
    > years
    > in Virginia. I have never heard the short /a/ as in "fat" used in either
    > place, though, as I have indicated earlier, I often hear it in England.
    > Certainly the /a/ of "father" is far more common in the US.

I'm trying to get my head round this. In British English pronunciation
("received pronunciation"), the use of /a/ in "father" in "pasta" would
result in that that word being pronounced "pahstah". The /a/ of "fat", as
pronounced in British English, isn't quite right for an authentic Italian
pronunciation, but I think it's closer than the /a/ of "father".

When the word occurs in English, I think most people I know would pronounce
the first /a/ as in "fat" and the second would be pronounced as a schwa (the
"obscure vowel" occurring in "the").

Alan Harrison

Audet

"ALAN HARRISON" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > "Audet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] ...
    > >
    > > I am from Upstate New York (near Albany) and have lived most of my 67
    > > years
    > > in Virginia. I have never heard the short /a/ as in "fat" used in either
    > > place, though, as I have indicated earlier, I often hear it in England.
    > > Certainly the /a/ of "father" is far more common in the US.
    > I'm trying to get my head round this. In British English pronunciation
    > ("received pronunciation"), the use of /a/ in "father" in "pasta" would
    > result in that that word being pronounced "pahstah". The /a/ of "fat", as
    > pronounced in British English, isn't quite right for an authentic Italian
    > pronunciation, but I think it's closer than the /a/ of "father".
    > When the word occurs in English, I think most people I know would
pronounce
    > the first /a/ as in "fat" and the second would be pronounced as a schwa
(the
    > "obscure vowel" occurring in "the").
    > Alan Harrison
I think you are quite right about the usual English pronunciation. In US
usage, however, the "pahstah" pronunciation is usual, and seems to me much
closer to the Italian.

Ron