Alan Harrison

"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 23:35:56 +0100, Ralph Holz <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    > >Hi,
    > >
    > >> We want to travel in Europe by Dec 23th to 31th. Here is the plan;
    > >> - arrive at Rome - spend 2 days
    > >
    > >Not much!
    > >
    > >> - drive up to Alpes to a city like Milano ot Torino (any suggestion?)
stay 3
    > >
    > >Suggestion: drop Milano (overrated),
    > Who on earth rates Milan highly?

I do! How about...
Pinacoteca di Brera
Pinacoteca Ambrosiana
SM delle Grazie
Galleria Vittorio Emanuele
Teatro alla Scala
Duomo (SM Nascente)
Sant'Ambrogio
Sant'Eustorgio
San Siro (not another God-box, but a footie stadium)
Navigli
Castello Sforzesco
Parco del Sempione
Science museum
Peter Witt trams (built 1928 and still going strong)
Birrificio di Lambrate (real ale brewery and adjacent pub)

Alan Harrison

Deirdre Straughan

Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence, Rome,
or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual tourist;
you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
you a very good idea; see
http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
and tips.

    >From Milan, you can take a train to Lake Como
<http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/lake_como.htm> , one of the most
beautiful places on earth. Hop off the train in Lecco, take the #5 bus
(stops across from the railway station) up to the funivia (cable car),
and take the cable car up the mountain (il Resegone) - at that point
you are ON an Alp, with plenty of view.
best regards,
Deirdré Straughan

http://www.straughan.com

Dr . George O . Bizzigotti

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 10:10:28 +0000 (UTC), "Alan Harrison"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >San Siro (not another God-box, but a footie stadium)

But a focus of religious fervor, and for two sects at that!

Regards,

George
************************************************** ********************
Dr. George O. Bizzigotti Telephone: (703) 610-2115
Mitretek Systems, Inc. Fax: (703) 610-1558
3150 Fairview Park Drive South E-Mail: [email protected]
Falls Church, Virginia, 22042-4519
************************************************** ********************

Deep Frayed Morgues

On 2 Dec 2004 02:41:11 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

    >Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence, Rome,
    >or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual tourist;
    >you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
    >you a very good idea; see
    >http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
    >and tips.

OK, let's see if I can cause some offence... :o)

Milan is not worth going out of your way to see. The first impressions
are lousy, as it's high density, with lots of traffic, and high costs.
Note also that it rains a lot too, far more than, say, Rome. It's a
city built for workers, not for tourists.

In winter it's freezing, in summer the heat is oppressive. It's an
incredibly 'wet' city, meaning that the effects of the heat and cold
are accentuated. You certainly wont be lonely in summer, because the
place is infested with millions of savage mosquitoes. The Milanese
love their dogs too, and despite efforts to make pooping areas, there
are often dog turds on the street.

Currently, the Duomo has scaffolding covering the entire front, so is
sure to dissapoint tourists. The Castello is interesting for a stroll,
but not worth writing home about. Outside of that, there are no major
tourist attractions, and you can see both of these in an afternoon.

There is also far fewer good restaurants than in other cities such as
Rome. The bars in Milan are ridiculously expensive too. You can pay 10
euros for a single beer when they have the appertivos out. Also public
transport is quite mediocre, with a reasonable metro, rattly old
trams, and buses that will shake you to pieces when they go over the
cobbled streets.

Italy has a hell of a lot to offer, but put Milan down the bottom of
your list somewhere.
---
DFM

nitram

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 16:08:54 GMT, Deep Frayed Morgues
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >On 2 Dec 2004 02:41:11 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    >>Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence, Rome,
    >>or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual tourist;
    >>you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
    >>you a very good idea; see
    >>http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
    >>and tips.
    >OK, let's see if I can cause some offence... :o)
    >Milan is not worth going out of your way to see. The first impressions
    >are lousy, as it's high density, with lots of traffic, and high costs.
    >Note also that it rains a lot too, far more than, say, Rome. It's a
    >city built for workers, not for tourists.
    >In winter it's freezing, in summer the heat is oppressive. It's an
    >incredibly 'wet' city, meaning that the effects of the heat and cold
    >are accentuated. You certainly wont be lonely in summer, because the
    >place is infested with millions of savage mosquitoes. The Milanese
    >love their dogs too, and despite efforts to make pooping areas, there
    >are often dog turds on the street.
    >Currently, the Duomo has scaffolding covering the entire front, so is
    >sure to dissapoint tourists. The Castello is interesting for a stroll,
    >but not worth writing home about. Outside of that, there are no major
    >tourist attractions, and you can see both of these in an afternoon.
    >There is also far fewer good restaurants than in other cities such as
    >Rome. The bars in Milan are ridiculously expensive too. You can pay 10
    >euros for a single beer when they have the appertivos out. Also public
    >transport is quite mediocre, with a reasonable metro, rattly old
    >trams, and buses that will shake you to pieces when they go over the
    >cobbled streets.
    >Italy has a hell of a lot to offer, but put Milan down the bottom of
    >your list somewhere.

I couldn't have put it better. Have we been working in the same place?
--
Martin

Miss L. Toe

"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
    > On 2 Dec 2004 02:41:11 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    > >Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence, Rome,
    > >or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual tourist;
    > >you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
    > >you a very good idea; see
    > >http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
    > >and tips.
    > OK, let's see if I can cause some offence... :o)
    > Milan is not worth going out of your way to see. The first impressions
    > are lousy, as it's high density, with lots of traffic, and high costs.

High costs ? - Not compared to the UK.

    > Note also that it rains a lot too, far more than, say, Rome. It's a
    > city built for workers, not for tourists.

Rains more than the UK ???

    > In winter it's freezing, in summer the heat is oppressive. It's an
    > incredibly 'wet' city, meaning that the effects of the heat and cold
    > are accentuated. You certainly wont be lonely in summer, because the
    > place is infested with millions of savage mosquitoes. The Milanese
    > love their dogs too, and despite efforts to make pooping areas, there
    > are often dog turds on the street.

But not as many turds as Paris.

    > Currently, the Duomo has scaffolding covering the entire front, so is
    > sure to dissapoint tourists.

True but it isn't permanent

    > The Castello is interesting for a stroll,
    > but not worth writing home about.

But the fountain outside it is interesting :-)

    > Outside of that, there are no major
    > tourist attractions, and you can see both of these in an afternoon.

What about La Scala ?

And there is more to tourism than attractions, I like Milan partly because
it isn't totally full of Tourists, it is a working City, but with many
interesting things.

    > There is also far fewer good restaurants than in other cities such as
    > Rome. The bars in Milan are ridiculously expensive too. You can pay 10
    > euros for a single beer when they have the appertivos out. Also public
    > transport is quite mediocre, with a reasonable metro, rattly old
    > trams, and buses that will shake you to pieces when they go over the
    > cobbled streets.

But it is small enough to walk most of the main areas.

    > Italy has a hell of a lot to offer, but put Milan down the bottom of
    > your list somewhere.

It certainly shouldn't be at the top.

nitram

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:43:12 -0000, "Miss L. Toe"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >message news:[email protected]...
    >> On 2 Dec 2004 02:41:11 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    >> >Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence, Rome,
    >> >or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual tourist;
    >> >you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
    >> >you a very good idea; see
    >> >http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
    >> >and tips.
    >> OK, let's see if I can cause some offence... :o)
    >> Milan is not worth going out of your way to see. The first impressions
    >> are lousy, as it's high density, with lots of traffic, and high costs.
    >High costs ? - Not compared to the UK.

Compared to alternatives.

Odd how the UK has the lowest inflation for decades, the pound is at a
near all time low against the euro, mainland European inflation has
been up to 7% in some countries and yet UK has gone from being one of
the cheapest countries in Europe to one of the most expensive in less
than a decade.

    >> Note also that it rains a lot too, far more than, say, Rome. It's a
    >> city built for workers, not for tourists.
    >Rains more than the UK ???

It depends which part of the UK.

    >> In winter it's freezing, in summer the heat is oppressive. It's an
    >> incredibly 'wet' city, meaning that the effects of the heat and cold
    >> are accentuated. You certainly wont be lonely in summer, because the
    >> place is infested with millions of savage mosquitoes. The Milanese
    >> love their dogs too, and despite efforts to make pooping areas, there
    >> are often dog turds on the street.
    >But not as many turds as Paris.

Leave the frog poo out of this.

    >> Currently, the Duomo has scaffolding covering the entire front, so is
    >> sure to dissapoint tourists.
    >True but it isn't permanent
    >> The Castello is interesting for a stroll,
    >> but not worth writing home about.
    >But the fountain outside it is interesting :-)

but did you write home about it?

    >> Outside of that, there are no major
    >> tourist attractions, and you can see both of these in an afternoon.
    >What about La Scala ?

only in the evening :-)

    >And there is more to tourism than attractions, I like Milan partly because
    >it isn't totally full of Tourists, it is a working City, but with many
    >interesting things.

but next nothing for tourists.

Other than Charleroi, It's the only place I visited for work over a
long period, where I had absolutely no interest in spending a weekend.

    >> There is also far fewer good restaurants than in other cities such as
    >> Rome. The bars in Milan are ridiculously expensive too. You can pay 10
    >> euros for a single beer when they have the appertivos out. Also public
    >> transport is quite mediocre, with a reasonable metro, rattly old
    >> trams, and buses that will shake you to pieces when they go over the
    >> cobbled streets.
    >But it is small enough to walk most of the main areas.

and be bored to death doing it?

    >> Italy has a hell of a lot to offer, but put Milan down the bottom of
    >> your list somewhere.
    >It certainly shouldn't be at the top.

It's a place to work and little else.

--
Martin

Miss L. Toe

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:43:12 -0000, "Miss L. Toe"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    > >message news:[email protected]...
    > >> On 2 Dec 2004 02:41:11 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence,
Rome,
    > >> >or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual
tourist;
    > >> >you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
    > >> >you a very good idea; see
    > >> >http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
    > >> >and tips.
    > >>
    > >> OK, let's see if I can cause some offence... :o)
    > >>
    > >> Milan is not worth going out of your way to see. The first impressions
    > >> are lousy, as it's high density, with lots of traffic, and high costs.
    > >
    > >High costs ? - Not compared to the UK.
    > Compared to alternatives.
    > Odd how the UK has the lowest inflation for decades, the pound is at a
    > near all time low against the euro, mainland European inflation has
    > been up to 7% in some countries and yet UK has gone from being one of
    > the cheapest countries in Europe to one of the most expensive in less
    > than a decade.

That's what happens when you believe Phoney bLiar's statistics, which
measure of inflation are you talking about ?

    > >
    > >> The Castello is interesting for a stroll,
    > >> but not worth writing home about.
    > >
    > >But the fountain outside it is interesting :-)
    > but did you write home about it?

I got back home before I had the chance to... But I would have done.

    > >> Outside of that, there are no major
    > >> tourist attractions, and you can see both of these in an afternoon.
    > >>
    > >
    > >What about La Scala ?
    > only in the evening :-)

Or La Scala museum during the day :-)

    > >
    > >And there is more to tourism than attractions, I like Milan partly
because
    > >it isn't totally full of Tourists, it is a working City, but with many
    > >interesting things.
    > but next nothing for tourists.

No - several things, I also forgot 'The Last Supper'. But not as many as
Rome or Venice.

    > Other than Charleroi, It's the only place I visited for work over a
    > long period, where I had absolutely no interest in spending a weekend.

Fine - we each have our opinion - so what are your top 10 favorite European
places to visit ?

    > >
    > >> There is also far fewer good restaurants than in other cities such as
    > >> Rome. The bars in Milan are ridiculously expensive too. You can pay 10
    > >> euros for a single beer when they have the appertivos out. Also public
    > >> transport is quite mediocre, with a reasonable metro, rattly old
    > >> trams, and buses that will shake you to pieces when they go over the
    > >> cobbled streets.
    > >>
    > >
    > >But it is small enough to walk most of the main areas.
    > and be bored to death doing it?

Not if you are hunting for a certain sandwich shop.

    > >
    > >> Italy has a hell of a lot to offer, but put Milan down the bottom of
    > >> your list somewhere.
    > >
    > >It certainly shouldn't be at the top.
    > It's a place to work and little else.

Nowhere is a place to work - work should be banned.
I predict all European cities will be work free within a decade.
Just buy shares in Chineses and Indian companies and live off the dividends
    :-)

nitram

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 12:26:13 -0000, "Miss L. Toe"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    ><[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:43:12 -0000, "Miss L. Toe"
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >> >message news:[email protected]...
    >> >> On 2 Dec 2004 02:41:11 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence,
    >Rome,
    >> >> >or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual
    >tourist;
    >> >> >you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
    >> >> >you a very good idea; see
    >> >> >http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
    >> >> >and tips.
    >> >>
    >> >> OK, let's see if I can cause some offence... :o)
    >> >>
    >> >> Milan is not worth going out of your way to see. The first impressions
    >> >> are lousy, as it's high density, with lots of traffic, and high costs.
    >> >
    >> >High costs ? - Not compared to the UK.
    >> Compared to alternatives.
    >> Odd how the UK has the lowest inflation for decades, the pound is at a
    >> near all time low against the euro, mainland European inflation has
    >> been up to 7% in some countries and yet UK has gone from being one of
    >> the cheapest countries in Europe to one of the most expensive in less
    >> than a decade.
    >That's what happens when you believe Phoney bLiar's statistics, which
    >measure of inflation are you talking about ?

The one the EU published. The lack of British Govt. perception of
inflation is not a Tony B. original.


--
Martin

Deep Frayed Morgues

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 10:43:12 -0000, "Miss L. Toe"
<[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Deep Frayed Morgues" <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote in
    >message news:[email protected]...
    >> On 2 Dec 2004 02:41:11 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
    >> >Milan gets unfairly short shrift from travelers. Unlike Florence, Rome,
    >> >or Venice, Milan doesn't offer herself up easily to the casual tourist;
    >> >you have to look a little harder, but it's worth it. Alan's list gives
    >> >you a very good idea; see
    >> >http://www.straughan.com/italy/travel/milano.htm for some other links
    >> >and tips.
    >> OK, let's see if I can cause some offence... :o)
    >> Milan is not worth going out of your way to see. The first impressions
    >> are lousy, as it's high density, with lots of traffic, and high costs.
    >High costs ? - Not compared to the UK.

No, but higher than Rome, and it has far less to offer tourists.

    >> Note also that it rains a lot too, far more than, say, Rome. It's a
    >> city built for workers, not for tourists.
    >Rains more than the UK ???

Possibly more than London. It rains a LOT here!

    >> In winter it's freezing, in summer the heat is oppressive. It's an
    >> incredibly 'wet' city, meaning that the effects of the heat and cold
    >> are accentuated. You certainly wont be lonely in summer, because the
    >> place is infested with millions of savage mosquitoes. The Milanese
    >> love their dogs too, and despite efforts to make pooping areas, there
    >> are often dog turds on the street.
    >But not as many turds as Paris.

They're trying to catch up.

    >> Currently, the Duomo has scaffolding covering the entire front, so is
    >> sure to dissapoint tourists.
    >True but it isn't permanent

It's Italians working remember. 27 years is technically not
permanent...!

    >> The Castello is interesting for a stroll,
    >> but not worth writing home about.
    >But the fountain outside it is interesting :-)

*tries to think of it*

mmmm.... I can only think of one, and can't recall it being special. I
do remember the lighting on the Castello at night being quite good
though...

    >> Outside of that, there are no major
    >> tourist attractions, and you can see both of these in an afternoon.
    >What about La Scala ?

And Brera.

    >And there is more to tourism than attractions, I like Milan partly because
    >it isn't totally full of Tourists, it is a working City, but with many
    >interesting things.

There is certainly plenty to do, like in any big city, just not much
really special. Remember, this is Italy we are talking about, so the
bar is set very high.

    >> There is also far fewer good restaurants than in other cities such as
    >> Rome. The bars in Milan are ridiculously expensive too. You can pay 10
    >> euros for a single beer when they have the appertivos out. Also public
    >> transport is quite mediocre, with a reasonable metro, rattly old
    >> trams, and buses that will shake you to pieces when they go over the
    >> cobbled streets.
    >But it is small enough to walk most of the main areas.

For an afternoon.

    >> Italy has a hell of a lot to offer, but put Milan down the bottom of
    >> your list somewhere.
    >It certainly shouldn't be at the top.

Did I mention that it's one of the most nervous cities I have ever
seen? On every street you can see people chewing their nails and
smoking cigarettes like the invading hordes are coming through the
alps.
---
DFM

nitram

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:20:58 GMT, Deep Frayed Morgues
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:


    >Did I mention that it's one of the most nervous cities I have ever
    >seen? On every street you can see people chewing their nails and
    >smoking cigarettes like the invading hordes are coming through the
    >alps.

I noticed that with the people I worked with in Milan.
--
Martin

Deep Frayed Morgues

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:26:06 +0100, [email protected] wrote:

    >On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:20:58 GMT, Deep Frayed Morgues
    ><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
    >>Did I mention that it's one of the most nervous cities I have ever
    >>seen? On every street you can see people chewing their nails and
    >>smoking cigarettes like the invading hordes are coming through the
    >>alps.
    >I noticed that with the people I worked with in Milan.

All of them, on edge, all the time. Leave the metro zone, and it
reverts back to Italy again.

Utterly mad I say.
---
DFM

nitram

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 19:20:55 GMT, Deep Frayed Morgues
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:

    >On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 18:26:06 +0100, [email protected] wrote:
    >>On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 17:20:58 GMT, Deep Frayed Morgues
    >><deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
    >>>Did I mention that it's one of the most nervous cities I have ever
    >>>seen? On every street you can see people chewing their nails and
    >>>smoking cigarettes like the invading hordes are coming through the
    >>>alps.
    >>I noticed that with the people I worked with in Milan.
    >All of them, on edge, all the time. Leave the metro zone, and it
    >reverts back to Italy again.
    >Utterly mad I say.

I thought perhaps brain damage caused by heavy pollution.
--
Martin

Poldy

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

    > Odd how the UK has the lowest inflation for decades, the pound is at a
    > near all time low against the euro, mainland European inflation has
    > been up to 7% in some countries and yet UK has gone from being one of
    > the cheapest countries in Europe to one of the most expensive in less
    > than a decade.

Thatcherism?

nitram

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:39:48 GMT, poldy <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >> Odd how the UK has the lowest inflation for decades, the pound is at a
    >> near all time low against the euro, mainland European inflation has
    >> been up to 7% in some countries and yet UK has gone from being one of
    >> the cheapest countries in Europe to one of the most expensive in less
    >> than a decade.
    >Thatcherism?

plus New Labour.
--
Martin