Paris Ticket Scam
Aug 4th 2004, 5:09 pm
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
> > No chip. Dumb card to match the user.
> How does the machine read it?
Via the magnetic strip on the back. I've bought Metro tickets both at the
machines and the ticket windows with my standard dumb card.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
> How does the machine read it?
Via the magnetic strip on the back. I've bought Metro tickets both at the
machines and the ticket windows with my standard dumb card.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Aug 4th 2004, 7:31 pm
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
In <[email protected]>, Mxsmanic wrote:
> Which machines? The usual ticket machines in Métro stations have no
> provision for reading magnetic stripes that I can see.
The bicycle-shop-owning gentleman has already described the particular
machines in greater detail. But just in the interest of science, the three
machines I have used with striped credit cards have been in Châtelet, Orly,
and the Vincennes RER station. While the latter two may not have technically
been in Métro stations, they did offer Métro tickets for sale.
--
Herbie J.
Famous Curator
> Which machines? The usual ticket machines in Métro stations have no
> provision for reading magnetic stripes that I can see.
The bicycle-shop-owning gentleman has already described the particular
machines in greater detail. But just in the interest of science, the three
machines I have used with striped credit cards have been in Châtelet, Orly,
and the Vincennes RER station. While the latter two may not have technically
been in Métro stations, they did offer Métro tickets for sale.
--
Herbie J.
Famous Curator
Aug 4th 2004, 8:20 pm
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
In article <[email protected]>,
"Joe Gradeless" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BD359A4E.1EA01%[email protected]...
> > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam, the
> > > perp showed you a better way.
> >
> > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
> >
>
> My UK credit card has a chip and PIN but I have only been required to use
> the PIN once is the 3 months I have had the card - all other times including
> France I have used a signature.
>
> I think the reason is that PIN cards are only just now being introduced in
> the UK so many businesses will not have the facility to read PIN cards. In
> France they assume that my card is of the signature type.
>
> A nice bit of technology I found in the French restaurants is a mobile
> wireless card reader into which the waiter places your card. The
> verifiaction and printing of the transaction slip takes place at your table.
> It saves staff time and means your card does not disappear from view.
>
> Jo
>
>
The interesting thing is that it's not even new technology. I saw these devices
were in action in France in 1996. As nobody in the vicinity raised eyebrows, it
was obvious that all the locals were quite used to it, suggesting that its
introduction was some years prior to 1996.
--
Cheers!
Terry
"Joe Gradeless" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:BD359A4E.1EA01%[email protected]...
> > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam, the
> > > perp showed you a better way.
> >
> > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
> >
>
> My UK credit card has a chip and PIN but I have only been required to use
> the PIN once is the 3 months I have had the card - all other times including
> France I have used a signature.
>
> I think the reason is that PIN cards are only just now being introduced in
> the UK so many businesses will not have the facility to read PIN cards. In
> France they assume that my card is of the signature type.
>
> A nice bit of technology I found in the French restaurants is a mobile
> wireless card reader into which the waiter places your card. The
> verifiaction and printing of the transaction slip takes place at your table.
> It saves staff time and means your card does not disappear from view.
>
> Jo
>
>
The interesting thing is that it's not even new technology. I saw these devices
were in action in France in 1996. As nobody in the vicinity raised eyebrows, it
was obvious that all the locals were quite used to it, suggesting that its
introduction was some years prior to 1996.
--
Cheers!
Terry
Aug 4th 2004, 9:38 pm
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Joe Gradeless writes:
> > I can buy up to £40 (60 euros) worth of petrol at my local supermarket
using
> > my credit card and no PIN or signature.
> So can anyone who steals your card. That's why crooks like non-French
> credit cards.
Yes, but this is one of the few services which allows me to pay by CC
without signature or PIN. The CC company/ supermarket bears the cost of any
fraud as THEY have chosen to allow my card to be used in this way.
Jo
> --
> Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
news:[email protected]...
> Joe Gradeless writes:
> > I can buy up to £40 (60 euros) worth of petrol at my local supermarket
using
> > my credit card and no PIN or signature.
> So can anyone who steals your card. That's why crooks like non-French
> credit cards.
Yes, but this is one of the few services which allows me to pay by CC
without signature or PIN. The CC company/ supermarket bears the cost of any
fraud as THEY have chosen to allow my card to be used in this way.
Jo
> --
> Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 4th 2004, 10:02 pm
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
Mike Jacoubowsky writes:
> Via the magnetic strip on the back. I've bought Metro tickets both at the
> machines and the ticket windows with my standard dumb card.
No doubt. But to read a stripe, the card must be moved past a read
station. The machines I've used don't suck up the card and spit it back
out; you just slide it in and it is never completely inside the machine.
Since there's no movement of the card, it cannot be reading the stripe.
Unless there is some sort of stop inside the machine that unlocks if the
machine cannot find a chip (?).
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> Via the magnetic strip on the back. I've bought Metro tickets both at the
> machines and the ticket windows with my standard dumb card.
No doubt. But to read a stripe, the card must be moved past a read
station. The machines I've used don't suck up the card and spit it back
out; you just slide it in and it is never completely inside the machine.
Since there's no movement of the card, it cannot be reading the stripe.
Unless there is some sort of stop inside the machine that unlocks if the
machine cannot find a chip (?).
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 4th 2004, 10:02 pm
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
Terry Simmons writes:
> The interesting thing is that it's not even new technology. I saw these devices
> were in action in France in 1996. As nobody in the vicinity raised eyebrows, it
> was obvious that all the locals were quite used to it, suggesting that its
> introduction was some years prior to 1996.
Long prior. I don't have an exact date, but it has been considerably
longer than a decade.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> The interesting thing is that it's not even new technology. I saw these devices
> were in action in France in 1996. As nobody in the vicinity raised eyebrows, it
> was obvious that all the locals were quite used to it, suggesting that its
> introduction was some years prior to 1996.
Long prior. I don't have an exact date, but it has been considerably
longer than a decade.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 4th 2004, 10:56 pm
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
[email protected] (David Horne) wrote in message news:<1ghyols.1bo7b2p1vcmn4aN%this_address_is_for_ [email protected]>...
> Tam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam, the
> > > perp showed you a better way.
> >
> > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
>
> I have a chip + PIN on my UK credit card, and I couldn't use the ticket
> machines there either. I'm pretty sure I read here a while back that
> they only accept French-issued cards.
>
> David
This thread is quite interesting because some people say that they
have been able to use their cards with or without chip in France and
some not. But since the french network is totally interoperable
(intercompatible) and perfectly homogeneous this question is becomming
more and more mysterious to me. Thanks to this total interoperability
I only need a single bank card and I never had a single problem
nationwide and abroad except of course when the ATM indicates me that
it is out of cash or order (not taking in count the isolated "Point
argent" in France all closed since a recent decree taken for security
reasons).
Historically, the french network Carte Bleue founded in 1967 was
implemented that way according to their website, but a french
specialist should complete my interrogations... :
Between 1971 and 1986 only magnetic stripe cards could be used in
french ATMs until the introduction of chip cards in France.
Between 1986 and 1993 chip cards +¨PIN and magnetic cards (don't know
if PIN was nevertheless already required) could be apparently used
indifferently in ATMs, since the chip was not yet generalised for the
french.
Between 1993, when all bank cards issued in France were equipped with
chips, and 2002 the original french standard was used in all french
ATMs and equipped shops with a 4 digits PIN and "apparently" the chip
card technology was virtually only used in France (my first bank card
was issued during this period). When was introduced the chip in your
countries ?
Between 2002 and today the new EMV chip card standards + PIN is used
in France. Apparently the pre-existing implementation of chip card
technology allowed a simply up-dating of the perfectly reliable and
efficient (I precise...) former mathematical protocole, before any
other country..., despite a recent mediatic campaign in UK of which we
had the echo right here on this newsgroup few months ago... "Pretty
sure that you read it"... I doubt not !
The questions are consequently :
Was the PIN code required in France since 1993 and when was the PIN
first used abroad ? If the PIN exists since a long time abroad it's up
to your network to make international cards with PIN use and to ask
this kind for France in particular. A Pin has been required for my
card use in nearly all western european countries much before 2002
(that prooves that they are compatible with PIN french system), in
some countries of eastern Europe and even in the US if I remember well
(I'm confused because the PIN was not recently asked to me in NYC
metro machines and in youthhostels ATMs). I can't even imagine that
chip cards were ONLY required in french ATMs since 1993, since it
would have totally isolated France from foreign tourists use... And
I've never heard such a thing. So I suppose that a magnetic cards +
PIN (always required first by the ATMs and shop machines in France as
far as I've seen) is still possible for them like between 1986 and
1993, at least until 2002.
So if SOME foreigners say that they have been able to use their card
in France that means that abroad there is at least a bank which made
cards compatible with the french network. And if one has been able to
do so that means that it's perfectly possible and that logically any
others could do so as well... The simple fact that the french MADE
THEMSELF SURE that their own PRE-EXISTING chip card protocole was
compatible to the others for french going abroad prooves that they
have checked its compatibility in CONCERTATION with these other
networks... This concertation begun with Visa in 1973. My logical
conclusion is consequently that it's up to the other banks, only to
blame..., to make cards compatible to the french network, France being
obviously part of an "international area card". I personnaly choosed a
"bank card" (in France we say "carte bancaire") fitted for
international transactions. If some foreign banks make cards for
international transactions but, deliberatly or not, FORGET France in
its list of foreign countries on the pretext that it had during years
a more secured network with a different but possible compatible
protocole, IMO that's THEIR problem.
But now that the chip card technology is knowed outside France, if
some french machine have finally switched to exclusive chip card use
(metro tickets ?), it's up to you to ask a chip card to your own bank
when going to France. And this time if your CHIP card doesn't work in
France that's OBVIOUSLY because YOUR bank deliberatly choosed to not
be compatible with french chip card PRE-EXISTING protocole, including
the EMV one...! (1) And it's easy to guess why : commercial
competition reasons. I precise that the wireless small shop ATMs used
in shops and restaurants exist since years in France (not far to 10
years IMO) and that chip cards transactions are generalised in
virtually all french shops since years too.
(1) Peut-on être plus tordu que ça...!
So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
is "obviously" unimaginable"...
didier Meurgues
> Tam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam, the
> > > perp showed you a better way.
> >
> > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
>
> I have a chip + PIN on my UK credit card, and I couldn't use the ticket
> machines there either. I'm pretty sure I read here a while back that
> they only accept French-issued cards.
>
> David
This thread is quite interesting because some people say that they
have been able to use their cards with or without chip in France and
some not. But since the french network is totally interoperable
(intercompatible) and perfectly homogeneous this question is becomming
more and more mysterious to me. Thanks to this total interoperability
I only need a single bank card and I never had a single problem
nationwide and abroad except of course when the ATM indicates me that
it is out of cash or order (not taking in count the isolated "Point
argent" in France all closed since a recent decree taken for security
reasons).
Historically, the french network Carte Bleue founded in 1967 was
implemented that way according to their website, but a french
specialist should complete my interrogations... :
Between 1971 and 1986 only magnetic stripe cards could be used in
french ATMs until the introduction of chip cards in France.
Between 1986 and 1993 chip cards +¨PIN and magnetic cards (don't know
if PIN was nevertheless already required) could be apparently used
indifferently in ATMs, since the chip was not yet generalised for the
french.
Between 1993, when all bank cards issued in France were equipped with
chips, and 2002 the original french standard was used in all french
ATMs and equipped shops with a 4 digits PIN and "apparently" the chip
card technology was virtually only used in France (my first bank card
was issued during this period). When was introduced the chip in your
countries ?
Between 2002 and today the new EMV chip card standards + PIN is used
in France. Apparently the pre-existing implementation of chip card
technology allowed a simply up-dating of the perfectly reliable and
efficient (I precise...) former mathematical protocole, before any
other country..., despite a recent mediatic campaign in UK of which we
had the echo right here on this newsgroup few months ago... "Pretty
sure that you read it"... I doubt not !
The questions are consequently :
Was the PIN code required in France since 1993 and when was the PIN
first used abroad ? If the PIN exists since a long time abroad it's up
to your network to make international cards with PIN use and to ask
this kind for France in particular. A Pin has been required for my
card use in nearly all western european countries much before 2002
(that prooves that they are compatible with PIN french system), in
some countries of eastern Europe and even in the US if I remember well
(I'm confused because the PIN was not recently asked to me in NYC
metro machines and in youthhostels ATMs). I can't even imagine that
chip cards were ONLY required in french ATMs since 1993, since it
would have totally isolated France from foreign tourists use... And
I've never heard such a thing. So I suppose that a magnetic cards +
PIN (always required first by the ATMs and shop machines in France as
far as I've seen) is still possible for them like between 1986 and
1993, at least until 2002.
So if SOME foreigners say that they have been able to use their card
in France that means that abroad there is at least a bank which made
cards compatible with the french network. And if one has been able to
do so that means that it's perfectly possible and that logically any
others could do so as well... The simple fact that the french MADE
THEMSELF SURE that their own PRE-EXISTING chip card protocole was
compatible to the others for french going abroad prooves that they
have checked its compatibility in CONCERTATION with these other
networks... This concertation begun with Visa in 1973. My logical
conclusion is consequently that it's up to the other banks, only to
blame..., to make cards compatible to the french network, France being
obviously part of an "international area card". I personnaly choosed a
"bank card" (in France we say "carte bancaire") fitted for
international transactions. If some foreign banks make cards for
international transactions but, deliberatly or not, FORGET France in
its list of foreign countries on the pretext that it had during years
a more secured network with a different but possible compatible
protocole, IMO that's THEIR problem.
But now that the chip card technology is knowed outside France, if
some french machine have finally switched to exclusive chip card use
(metro tickets ?), it's up to you to ask a chip card to your own bank
when going to France. And this time if your CHIP card doesn't work in
France that's OBVIOUSLY because YOUR bank deliberatly choosed to not
be compatible with french chip card PRE-EXISTING protocole, including
the EMV one...! (1) And it's easy to guess why : commercial
competition reasons. I precise that the wireless small shop ATMs used
in shops and restaurants exist since years in France (not far to 10
years IMO) and that chip cards transactions are generalised in
virtually all french shops since years too.
(1) Peut-on être plus tordu que ça...!
So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
is "obviously" unimaginable"...
didier Meurgues
Aug 4th 2004, 11:09 pm
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
[email protected] (David Horne) wrote in message news:<1ghyols.1bo7b2p1vcmn4aN%this_address_is_for_ [email protected]>...
> Tam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam, the
> > > perp showed you a better way.
> >
> > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
>
> I have a chip + PIN on my UK credit card, and I couldn't use the ticket
> machines there either. I'm pretty sure I read here a while back that
> they only accept French-issued cards.
>
> David
I precise that the wireless small shop ATMs used
in shops and restaurants
I meant :
I precise that the wireless small shop PAYMENT MACHINES used
in shops and restaurants
of course
see former mail.
didier Meurgues
> Tam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam, the
> > > perp showed you a better way.
> >
> > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
>
> I have a chip + PIN on my UK credit card, and I couldn't use the ticket
> machines there either. I'm pretty sure I read here a while back that
> they only accept French-issued cards.
>
> David
I precise that the wireless small shop ATMs used
in shops and restaurants
I meant :
I precise that the wireless small shop PAYMENT MACHINES used
in shops and restaurants
of course
see former mail.
didier Meurgues
Aug 5th 2004, 12:58 am
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
German and French rail ticket machines
Does any of this explain why my U.S. MasterCard wont work in the German and
French rail ticket machines?
Interestingly, it does work in the Paris Metro ticket machines.
I've complained to MasterCard and my bank and they both say they haven't had
this problem (probably because they never travel overseas).
The card is always accepted at the ticket counter. Since some stations are not
manned, this isn't good enough.
John
French rail ticket machines?
Interestingly, it does work in the Paris Metro ticket machines.
I've complained to MasterCard and my bank and they both say they haven't had
this problem (probably because they never travel overseas).
The card is always accepted at the ticket counter. Since some stations are not
manned, this isn't good enough.
John
Aug 5th 2004, 1:02 am
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, meurgues wrote:
>[email protected] (David Horne) wrote in message news:<1ghyols.1bo7b2p1vcmn4aN%this_address_is_for_ [email protected]>...
[...]
>So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
>read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
>made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
>incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
>reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
>is "obviously" unimaginable"...
phew! "follow that", as we say this side of La Manche.
I won't try, merely to comment that the UK tabloid press is garbage, and
largely Europhobe, and the UK "quality press" is not much better, with
one or two possible exceptions.
A serious question though, which has occurred to me about the forthcoming
UK "Chip and Pin" adventure, and since you seem to have good experience
of the French long-standing version:
Do Chip and Pin cards make any difference at all to the situation when
buying goods or services online? Is there any mechanism whereby
the online site can ask you to type in your PIN?
I am guessing not, and that the same is true for phone purchases.
Thus, although we are told that C+P will "solve" all the card-fraud
problems at a stroke, it does not seem to improve online or phone-call
credit card buying security at all. Is that right?
And are C+P cards clone-proof?
--
[email protected]
>[email protected] (David Horne) wrote in message news:<1ghyols.1bo7b2p1vcmn4aN%this_address_is_for_ [email protected]>...
[...]
>So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
>read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
>made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
>incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
>reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
>is "obviously" unimaginable"...
phew! "follow that", as we say this side of La Manche.
I won't try, merely to comment that the UK tabloid press is garbage, and
largely Europhobe, and the UK "quality press" is not much better, with
one or two possible exceptions.
A serious question though, which has occurred to me about the forthcoming
UK "Chip and Pin" adventure, and since you seem to have good experience
of the French long-standing version:
Do Chip and Pin cards make any difference at all to the situation when
buying goods or services online? Is there any mechanism whereby
the online site can ask you to type in your PIN?
I am guessing not, and that the same is true for phone purchases.
Thus, although we are told that C+P will "solve" all the card-fraud
problems at a stroke, it does not seem to improve online or phone-call
credit card buying security at all. Is that right?
And are C+P cards clone-proof?
--
[email protected]
Aug 5th 2004, 5:50 am
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
"tim" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Joe Gradeless" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:BD359A4E.1EA01%[email protected]...
> > > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam,
> the
> > > > perp showed you a better way.
> > >
> > > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
> > >
> >
> > My UK credit card has a chip and PIN but I have only been required to use
> > the PIN once is the 3 months I have had the card - all other times
> including
> > France I have used a signature.
> >
> > I think the reason is that PIN cards are only just now being introduced in
> > the UK so many businesses will not have the facility to read PIN cards. In
> > France they assume that my card is of the signature type.
>
> The reason is that the french C+P system despite being the first
> is not compatable with the new international standard that the
> rest of the world is introducing. A UK C+P card will not
> work an old french C+P machine, of course, as the frence change
> over to the international standard there will be machines where
> UK cards will work in the future
>
> tim
According to the french network website "carte bleue" the french made,
as soon as 2002..., their original chip card system compatible with
the new EMV international chip card standard contrary to what your
medias say. So I can only lead to the conclusion that if some UK
cards, which begun to use this standard only in 2003 if I've well
understood, don't work in France that's only because UK banks
introduced later a slightly special protocole in order to not work in
France...
See my previous mail.
didier Meurgues
> "Joe Gradeless" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Tam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:BD359A4E.1EA01%[email protected]...
> > > On 3/8/04 13:08, in article [email protected],
> > > "jcoulter" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > So why not use your card to get the tickets? even if it was a scam,
> the
> > > > perp showed you a better way.
> > >
> > > I think he was telling the truth: you have to have chip + PIN to use the
> > > French ticket machines and foreign cards won't work in that case.
> > >
> >
> > My UK credit card has a chip and PIN but I have only been required to use
> > the PIN once is the 3 months I have had the card - all other times
> including
> > France I have used a signature.
> >
> > I think the reason is that PIN cards are only just now being introduced in
> > the UK so many businesses will not have the facility to read PIN cards. In
> > France they assume that my card is of the signature type.
>
> The reason is that the french C+P system despite being the first
> is not compatable with the new international standard that the
> rest of the world is introducing. A UK C+P card will not
> work an old french C+P machine, of course, as the frence change
> over to the international standard there will be machines where
> UK cards will work in the future
>
> tim
According to the french network website "carte bleue" the french made,
as soon as 2002..., their original chip card system compatible with
the new EMV international chip card standard contrary to what your
medias say. So I can only lead to the conclusion that if some UK
cards, which begun to use this standard only in 2003 if I've well
understood, don't work in France that's only because UK banks
introduced later a slightly special protocole in order to not work in
France...
See my previous mail.
didier Meurgues
Aug 5th 2004, 6:48 am
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
"a.n.other" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] l.ac.uk>...
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, meurgues wrote:
>
> >[email protected] (David Horne) wrote in message news:<1ghyols.1bo7b2p1vcmn4aN%this_address_is_for_ [email protected]>...
>
> [...]
>
>
> >So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
> >read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
> >made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
> >incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
> >reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
> >is "obviously" unimaginable"...
Hi David,
I think that I've been a bit rude with Tim few minutes ago (my message
has not yet appeared right now)... My nerves finally broke this time,
indeed... And considering your magnanimity I think that I must
apologise to him.
In fact despite the fact that the new EMV international standard is
already implemented in France for transactions it could be possible
that some machines could on the contrary not be already fixed for it.
Perhaps is it the case for train ticket machines, that someone was
talking about.
Considering your question, I virtually only buy press articles and
transport tickets online, not goods yet. I type my card number, then
each time my PIN is asked too and it is even generally asked a third
security number wich is written next to the signature on the back of
the card. Perhaps is it linked to my french bank card number which is
recognise as french, since abroad in western Europe my pin is normally
asked too in ATMs, even if it could be possible that it is not asked
to locals. But I think more probably that it's due to the fact that I
only bought on french websites so far.
For phone purchases, which I've rarely done, they didn't asked my PIN
code if I remember well. It's too condifential IMO. If I understand
well what you mean you fear the circulation of the card number + PIN
on the web network. I suppose that it is indeed dangerous and that's
why too I don't use it so much and buy only on french websites in
order to reduce the area of circulation of my numbers.
The carte bleue bank network has nevertheless created an internet card
that they call e-card. When I surfed their website yesterday they were
making publicity about it saying that the already 200.000 holders of
this internet card are satisfied. But I don't have one, since I don't
need it so much for the moment.
If I've well understood your real bank card number doesn't circulate
on the web. For each transaction you create a temporary number "in 3
clics" wich is used only for this very transaction. They say that
fraud is not possible that way.
Friendly
didier Meurgues
> phew! "follow that", as we say this side of La Manche.
> I won't try, merely to comment that the UK tabloid press is garbage, and
> largely Europhobe, and the UK "quality press" is not much better, with
> one or two possible exceptions.
>
> A serious question though, which has occurred to me about the forthcoming
> UK "Chip and Pin" adventure, and since you seem to have good experience
> of the French long-standing version:
>
> Do Chip and Pin cards make any difference at all to the situation when
> buying goods or services online? Is there any mechanism whereby
> the online site can ask you to type in your PIN?
> I am guessing not, and that the same is true for phone purchases.
>
> Thus, although we are told that C+P will "solve" all the card-fraud
> problems at a stroke, it does not seem to improve online or phone-call
> credit card buying security at all. Is that right?
>
> And are C+P cards clone-proof?
> On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, meurgues wrote:
>
> >[email protected] (David Horne) wrote in message news:<1ghyols.1bo7b2p1vcmn4aN%this_address_is_for_ [email protected]>...
>
> [...]
>
>
> >So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
> >read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
> >made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
> >incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
> >reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
> >is "obviously" unimaginable"...
Hi David,
I think that I've been a bit rude with Tim few minutes ago (my message
has not yet appeared right now)... My nerves finally broke this time,
indeed... And considering your magnanimity I think that I must
apologise to him.
In fact despite the fact that the new EMV international standard is
already implemented in France for transactions it could be possible
that some machines could on the contrary not be already fixed for it.
Perhaps is it the case for train ticket machines, that someone was
talking about.
Considering your question, I virtually only buy press articles and
transport tickets online, not goods yet. I type my card number, then
each time my PIN is asked too and it is even generally asked a third
security number wich is written next to the signature on the back of
the card. Perhaps is it linked to my french bank card number which is
recognise as french, since abroad in western Europe my pin is normally
asked too in ATMs, even if it could be possible that it is not asked
to locals. But I think more probably that it's due to the fact that I
only bought on french websites so far.
For phone purchases, which I've rarely done, they didn't asked my PIN
code if I remember well. It's too condifential IMO. If I understand
well what you mean you fear the circulation of the card number + PIN
on the web network. I suppose that it is indeed dangerous and that's
why too I don't use it so much and buy only on french websites in
order to reduce the area of circulation of my numbers.
The carte bleue bank network has nevertheless created an internet card
that they call e-card. When I surfed their website yesterday they were
making publicity about it saying that the already 200.000 holders of
this internet card are satisfied. But I don't have one, since I don't
need it so much for the moment.
If I've well understood your real bank card number doesn't circulate
on the web. For each transaction you create a temporary number "in 3
clics" wich is used only for this very transaction. They say that
fraud is not possible that way.
Friendly
didier Meurgues
> phew! "follow that", as we say this side of La Manche.
> I won't try, merely to comment that the UK tabloid press is garbage, and
> largely Europhobe, and the UK "quality press" is not much better, with
> one or two possible exceptions.
>
> A serious question though, which has occurred to me about the forthcoming
> UK "Chip and Pin" adventure, and since you seem to have good experience
> of the French long-standing version:
>
> Do Chip and Pin cards make any difference at all to the situation when
> buying goods or services online? Is there any mechanism whereby
> the online site can ask you to type in your PIN?
> I am guessing not, and that the same is true for phone purchases.
>
> Thus, although we are told that C+P will "solve" all the card-fraud
> problems at a stroke, it does not seem to improve online or phone-call
> credit card buying security at all. Is that right?
>
> And are C+P cards clone-proof?
Aug 5th 2004, 8:36 am
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
meurgues <[email protected]> wrote:
> So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
> read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
> made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
> incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
> reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
> is "obviously" unimaginable"...
I don't think that apportioning the blame is the point of the posts
here- I'm not in a position to do so, and in any case, other people from
abroad have used their cards, so some patently work. The point is,
regardless of who is at fault, they do seem to cause problems for many
people. There are enough posts to this effect, as you reading the same
question again and again would seem to indicate. And, it is a bit
frustrating to wait in a line for a machine, and then to find it doesn't
work for you- that's all. It's really hard to get a data point on this,
obviously, but I seem to have had more problems in France than in other
countries in this regard. It might be that all the other banks (and my
own) are to blame and France's are faultless- but that's not much
consolation when your own card doesn't work...
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
> So now you understand why on this newsgroup it gets on my nerve to
> read again and again to the same question : Are the french machines
> made incompatible with foreign cards or foreign cards made
> incompatible with french machines ?, always the same and constant
> reply in UK press : "the first solution of course, the second solution
> is "obviously" unimaginable"...
I don't think that apportioning the blame is the point of the posts
here- I'm not in a position to do so, and in any case, other people from
abroad have used their cards, so some patently work. The point is,
regardless of who is at fault, they do seem to cause problems for many
people. There are enough posts to this effect, as you reading the same
question again and again would seem to indicate. And, it is a bit
frustrating to wait in a line for a machine, and then to find it doesn't
work for you- that's all. It's really hard to get a data point on this,
obviously, but I seem to have had more problems in France than in other
countries in this regard. It might be that all the other banks (and my
own) are to blame and France's are faultless- but that's not much
consolation when your own card doesn't work...
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Aug 5th 2004, 8:51 am
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
David Horne wrote:
..
>
>
> I don't think that apportioning the blame is the point of the posts
> here- I'm not in a position to do so, and in any case, other people from
> abroad have used their cards, so some patently work.
What hasn't been mentioned -- at least to my knowledge -- is
that you have to be using a machine that's on the correct network,
the one that matches the symbol on the back of your credit or ATM
card.
My ATM card only works on the Plus network. So when I want
cash I look for a machine that says it handles Plus network
transactions. My VISA card is also Plus. My MasterCard wants the
Cirrus network. Some cash machines are hooked up to both
networks, so I've been able to get cash using all three cards on a
single cash machine. (My cards are all Canadian-issued; none of
them have chips. I've used them in France, Italy and Greece.)
Could a mismatch of networks be responsible for some of the
"non-working" cards we're hearing about?
-- Ron
..
>
>
> I don't think that apportioning the blame is the point of the posts
> here- I'm not in a position to do so, and in any case, other people from
> abroad have used their cards, so some patently work.
What hasn't been mentioned -- at least to my knowledge -- is
that you have to be using a machine that's on the correct network,
the one that matches the symbol on the back of your credit or ATM
card.
My ATM card only works on the Plus network. So when I want
cash I look for a machine that says it handles Plus network
transactions. My VISA card is also Plus. My MasterCard wants the
Cirrus network. Some cash machines are hooked up to both
networks, so I've been able to get cash using all three cards on a
single cash machine. (My cards are all Canadian-issued; none of
them have chips. I've used them in France, Italy and Greece.)
Could a mismatch of networks be responsible for some of the
"non-working" cards we're hearing about?
-- Ron
Aug 5th 2004, 9:50 am
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Ticket Scam
> > Via the magnetic strip on the back. I've bought Metro tickets both at
the
> > machines and the ticket windows with my standard dumb card.
> No doubt. But to read a stripe, the card must be moved past a read
> station. The machines I've used don't suck up the card and spit it back
> out; you just slide it in and it is never completely inside the machine.
> Since there's no movement of the card, it cannot be reading the stripe.
> Unless there is some sort of stop inside the machine that unlocks if the
> machine cannot find a chip (?).
Sometimes it's easy to forget that things one takes for granted back home
work quite differently elsewhere. In the US, credit cards are read by
machines that you stick your card into and then pull back out (by hand).
The card is read simply from the sliding action *you* provide. There are
probably 200 million US folk who would think that's the only way credit
cards are read... the "smart" cards with embedded info on a chip simply
haven't happened here (they tried a few years ago, but they went nowhere).
The funny thing is that someone in the US has simply known no other way for
a credit card to work, and credit cards are such an integral part of life
that there's an assumption that that's simply the way the world must work.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member
the
> > machines and the ticket windows with my standard dumb card.
> No doubt. But to read a stripe, the card must be moved past a read
> station. The machines I've used don't suck up the card and spit it back
> out; you just slide it in and it is never completely inside the machine.
> Since there's no movement of the card, it cannot be reading the stripe.
> Unless there is some sort of stop inside the machine that unlocks if the
> machine cannot find a chip (?).
Sometimes it's easy to forget that things one takes for granted back home
work quite differently elsewhere. In the US, credit cards are read by
machines that you stick your card into and then pull back out (by hand).
The card is read simply from the sliding action *you* provide. There are
probably 200 million US folk who would think that's the only way credit
cards are read... the "smart" cards with embedded info on a chip simply
haven't happened here (they tried a few years ago, but they went nowhere).
The funny thing is that someone in the US has simply known no other way for
a credit card to work, and credit cards are such an integral part of life
that there's an assumption that that's simply the way the world must work.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
IMBA, BikesBelong, NBDA member
