Paris Notes (1)
Aug 2nd 2004, 7:34 am
#61
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Re: Paris Notes (1)
Jesper Lauridsen <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 2004-07-24, Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I know this, and my sympathy lies with those French people who bristle
>> at the assumption some visitors make that they can expect to be dealt
>> with in English.
>My sympathy with mono-lingual people working in the tourist industry
>is very limited.
You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
industries are paid. I am impressed by the number who can operate in
more than one language, but I don't see it as a right that I have. It
costs me nothing to ask if people speak English, and I think that
asking them is a reasonable courtesy.
I hope that you agree that people in the service industries are
entitled to be treated with courtesy.
--
PB
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>On 2004-07-24, Padraig Breathnach <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I know this, and my sympathy lies with those French people who bristle
>> at the assumption some visitors make that they can expect to be dealt
>> with in English.
>My sympathy with mono-lingual people working in the tourist industry
>is very limited.
You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
industries are paid. I am impressed by the number who can operate in
more than one language, but I don't see it as a right that I have. It
costs me nothing to ask if people speak English, and I think that
asking them is a reasonable courtesy.
I hope that you agree that people in the service industries are
entitled to be treated with courtesy.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Aug 2nd 2004, 7:34 am
#62
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Re: Paris Notes (1)
Padraig Breathnach writes:
> You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
> industries are paid.
Sure you can. Multilingualism is fairly common, even in France. It's
not considered a rare and special qualification, as it is in the U.S.
--
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> You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
> industries are paid.
Sure you can. Multilingualism is fairly common, even in France. It's
not considered a rare and special qualification, as it is in the U.S.
--
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Aug 2nd 2004, 7:45 am
#63
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Paris Notes (1)
Dans l'article <[email protected]>, jenn <[email protected]> a
écrit :
> exactly -- tourists are likely to visit dozens of countries with
> different languages in their lives -- do the French master dozens of
> languages for their travel? Tourists shouldn't be boors -- but neither
> should French people in the tourist industry.
You're tempting me. I am a dual national, American/French, and have always
had a fantasy of going to the US as my French persona, speaking only French
when I am there, and seeing what happens. How many boors will I run into?
Hopefully none, Americans have led me to expect higher standards than that.
Donna Evleth
écrit :
> exactly -- tourists are likely to visit dozens of countries with
> different languages in their lives -- do the French master dozens of
> languages for their travel? Tourists shouldn't be boors -- but neither
> should French people in the tourist industry.
You're tempting me. I am a dual national, American/French, and have always
had a fantasy of going to the US as my French persona, speaking only French
when I am there, and seeing what happens. How many boors will I run into?
Hopefully none, Americans have led me to expect higher standards than that.
Donna Evleth
Aug 2nd 2004, 7:45 am
#64
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Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Notes (1)
Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
>> industries are paid.
>Sure you can. Multilingualism is fairly common, even in France. It's
>not considered a rare and special qualification, as it is in the U.S.
Yes, I know. I meant it in the sense that you are not entitled to
expect it. And, of course, a polyglot might not speak your particular
language.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
>> industries are paid.
>Sure you can. Multilingualism is fairly common, even in France. It's
>not considered a rare and special qualification, as it is in the U.S.
Yes, I know. I meant it in the sense that you are not entitled to
expect it. And, of course, a polyglot might not speak your particular
language.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Aug 2nd 2004, 9:17 am
#65
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Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Notes (1)
"Donna Evleth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You're tempting me. I am a dual national, American/French, and
> have always had a fantasy of going to the US as my French persona,
> speaking only French when I am there, and seeing what happens.
> How many boors will I run into? Hopefully none, Americans have
> led me to expect higher standards than that.
I don't know that you'd run into many boors, you probably would run into the
odd French-Canadian or Haitian (or maybe Earl would become exasperated by
your fantasy and start translating for you...) but overall, you'd have a
hard time.
If the French start visiting the US in bigger numbers, I'm sure your fantasy
would become less frustrating to live out, as I've heard of hotels in
Florida hiring French-speaking staff because of the number of Quebecois who
drive down for the winter months.
The thing is that English is a language that is commonly used by people who
don't speak the same first language, French isn't. As a result, an American
hotel clerk who can only speak English is better suited to his job then a
French hotel clerk who can't speak English.
Almost everywhere I go (and I travel 10+ times a year) I see people who
obviously don't speak English natively using it to communicate. The only
times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when two
anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French to
one and other.
Richard
news:[email protected]...
> You're tempting me. I am a dual national, American/French, and
> have always had a fantasy of going to the US as my French persona,
> speaking only French when I am there, and seeing what happens.
> How many boors will I run into? Hopefully none, Americans have
> led me to expect higher standards than that.
I don't know that you'd run into many boors, you probably would run into the
odd French-Canadian or Haitian (or maybe Earl would become exasperated by
your fantasy and start translating for you...) but overall, you'd have a
hard time.
If the French start visiting the US in bigger numbers, I'm sure your fantasy
would become less frustrating to live out, as I've heard of hotels in
Florida hiring French-speaking staff because of the number of Quebecois who
drive down for the winter months.
The thing is that English is a language that is commonly used by people who
don't speak the same first language, French isn't. As a result, an American
hotel clerk who can only speak English is better suited to his job then a
French hotel clerk who can't speak English.
Almost everywhere I go (and I travel 10+ times a year) I see people who
obviously don't speak English natively using it to communicate. The only
times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when two
anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French to
one and other.
Richard
Aug 2nd 2004, 9:47 am
#66
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Re: Paris Notes (1)
Richard writes:
> The only
> times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when two
> anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French to
> one and other.
Don't they hear each other's accent?
--
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> The only
> times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when two
> anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French to
> one and other.
Don't they hear each other's accent?
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 2nd 2004, 9:47 am
#67
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Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Notes (1)
Padraig Breathnach writes:
> Yes, I know. I meant it in the sense that you are not entitled to
> expect it. And, of course, a polyglot might not speak your particular
> language.
Perhaps. But English is a formal job requirement in France for many
positions. If you don't pass the TOEIC or the SPEAK, you don't get the
job.
--
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> Yes, I know. I meant it in the sense that you are not entitled to
> expect it. And, of course, a polyglot might not speak your particular
> language.
Perhaps. But English is a formal job requirement in France for many
positions. If you don't pass the TOEIC or the SPEAK, you don't get the
job.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 2nd 2004, 9:51 am
#68
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Re: Paris Notes (1)
"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Richard writes:
> > The only times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in
> > Montreal when two anglophones assume the other is a franco-
> > phone and start speaking French to one and other.
> Don't they hear each other's accent?
More often than not. It depends on how well they speak French.
Richard
news:[email protected]...
> Richard writes:
> > The only times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in
> > Montreal when two anglophones assume the other is a franco-
> > phone and start speaking French to one and other.
> Don't they hear each other's accent?
More often than not. It depends on how well they speak French.
Richard
Aug 2nd 2004, 12:32 pm
#69
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Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Notes (1)
Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> Yes, I know. I meant it in the sense that you are not entitled to
>> expect it. And, of course, a polyglot might not speak your particular
>> language.
>Perhaps. But English is a formal job requirement in France for many
>positions. If you don't pass the TOEIC or the SPEAK, you don't get the
>job.
Does that include bar staff?
--
PB
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>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> Yes, I know. I meant it in the sense that you are not entitled to
>> expect it. And, of course, a polyglot might not speak your particular
>> language.
>Perhaps. But English is a formal job requirement in France for many
>positions. If you don't pass the TOEIC or the SPEAK, you don't get the
>job.
Does that include bar staff?
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Aug 2nd 2004, 3:24 pm
#70
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Re: Paris Notes (1)
Padraig Breathnach writes:
> Does that include bar staff?
It can, for upscale bars.
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> Does that include bar staff?
It can, for upscale bars.
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Aug 2nd 2004, 8:41 pm
#71
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Re: Paris Notes (1)
Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> Does that include bar staff?
>It can, for upscale bars.
Not relevant to me, then.
--
PB
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>Padraig Breathnach writes:
>> Does that include bar staff?
>It can, for upscale bars.
Not relevant to me, then.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Aug 3rd 2004, 2:52 am
#72
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Re: Paris Notes (1)
Mxsmanic extrapolated from data available...
> Padraig Breathnach writes:
>
>> You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
>> industries are paid.
>
> Sure you can. Multilingualism is fairly common, even in France. It's
> not considered a rare and special qualification, as it is in the U.S.
>
.....That depends on where you live. I'd suspect that a good 25%+ of the
population hereabouts is multilingual, aside from the 5% or so who speak no
English. Eventually, in both Texas and California, Hispanics will become
first, the largest ethnic group and soon after the majority ethnic group.
Most of them will be functionally if not in a literary sense, bilingual.
Already, in much of the US, especially big cities, from service staff in
hotels and restaurants to a dozen different niche vocations, speaking
Spanish can be a valuable assset. I'd hate to bea "Banquet Manager" in a
big US hotel and have no Spanish.
TMO
> Padraig Breathnach writes:
>
>> You can't expect polyglots on the wages most people in service
>> industries are paid.
>
> Sure you can. Multilingualism is fairly common, even in France. It's
> not considered a rare and special qualification, as it is in the U.S.
>
.....That depends on where you live. I'd suspect that a good 25%+ of the
population hereabouts is multilingual, aside from the 5% or so who speak no
English. Eventually, in both Texas and California, Hispanics will become
first, the largest ethnic group and soon after the majority ethnic group.
Most of them will be functionally if not in a literary sense, bilingual.
Already, in much of the US, especially big cities, from service staff in
hotels and restaurants to a dozen different niche vocations, speaking
Spanish can be a valuable assset. I'd hate to bea "Banquet Manager" in a
big US hotel and have no Spanish.
TMO
Aug 3rd 2004, 5:02 am
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Notes (1)
Olivers writes:
> Eventually, in both Texas and California, Hispanics will become
> first, the largest ethnic group and soon after the majority ethnic group.
Maybe. But the same was said about the Italians, and the Irish, and the
Chinese, and various other waves of immigrants.
As a general rule, immigrant populations eventually assimilate with the
mainstream, and not the other way around. The U.S. has remained an
English-speaking country despite many consecutive and large waves of
non-Anglophone immigrants.
> Already, in much of the US, especially big cities, from service staff in
> hotels and restaurants to a dozen different niche vocations, speaking
> Spanish can be a valuable assset. I'd hate to bea "Banquet Manager" in a
> big US hotel and have no Spanish.
In upper SES segments, Spanish isn't widely useful.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> Eventually, in both Texas and California, Hispanics will become
> first, the largest ethnic group and soon after the majority ethnic group.
Maybe. But the same was said about the Italians, and the Irish, and the
Chinese, and various other waves of immigrants.
As a general rule, immigrant populations eventually assimilate with the
mainstream, and not the other way around. The U.S. has remained an
English-speaking country despite many consecutive and large waves of
non-Anglophone immigrants.
> Already, in much of the US, especially big cities, from service staff in
> hotels and restaurants to a dozen different niche vocations, speaking
> Spanish can be a valuable assset. I'd hate to bea "Banquet Manager" in a
> big US hotel and have no Spanish.
In upper SES segments, Spanish isn't widely useful.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 3rd 2004, 5:30 am
#74
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Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Notes (1)
Richard wrote:
> "Donna Evleth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>You're tempting me. I am a dual national, American/French, and
>>have always had a fantasy of going to the US as my French persona,
>>speaking only French when I am there, and seeing what happens.
>>How many boors will I run into? Hopefully none, Americans have
>>led me to expect higher standards than that.
>
>
> I don't know that you'd run into many boors, you probably would run into the
> odd French-Canadian or Haitian (or maybe Earl would become exasperated by
> your fantasy and start translating for you...) but overall, you'd have a
> hard time.
>
> If the French start visiting the US in bigger numbers, I'm sure your fantasy
> would become less frustrating to live out, as I've heard of hotels in
> Florida hiring French-speaking staff because of the number of Quebecois who
> drive down for the winter months.
>
> The thing is that English is a language that is commonly used by people who
> don't speak the same first language, French isn't. As a result, an American
> hotel clerk who can only speak English is better suited to his job then a
> French hotel clerk who can't speak English.
>
> Almost everywhere I go (and I travel 10+ times a year) I see people who
> obviously don't speak English natively using it to communicate. The only
> times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when two
> anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French to
> one and other.
>
> Richard
>
>
most people who tour in the US have a little English since it is such a
common second language -- years ago when I was working a summer job
retail there was a French customer -- a middle aged woman who was very
frustrated and speaking in loud French in hopes people would understand
[like the occasional American or British tourists who hopes loud and
slow is all it takes] People were trying to help her -- since I spoke
German fluently at that time, I tried that -- and she had a little
German and so we could help her.
of course with the idiotic 'anti=French' nonsense being fueled by the
right win media in the US at the moment I don't know that someone
wouldn't experience SOME problems -- but for the most part American
customer service folks tend to be very helpful and at least make the
effort --
> "Donna Evleth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>You're tempting me. I am a dual national, American/French, and
>>have always had a fantasy of going to the US as my French persona,
>>speaking only French when I am there, and seeing what happens.
>>How many boors will I run into? Hopefully none, Americans have
>>led me to expect higher standards than that.
>
>
> I don't know that you'd run into many boors, you probably would run into the
> odd French-Canadian or Haitian (or maybe Earl would become exasperated by
> your fantasy and start translating for you...) but overall, you'd have a
> hard time.
>
> If the French start visiting the US in bigger numbers, I'm sure your fantasy
> would become less frustrating to live out, as I've heard of hotels in
> Florida hiring French-speaking staff because of the number of Quebecois who
> drive down for the winter months.
>
> The thing is that English is a language that is commonly used by people who
> don't speak the same first language, French isn't. As a result, an American
> hotel clerk who can only speak English is better suited to his job then a
> French hotel clerk who can't speak English.
>
> Almost everywhere I go (and I travel 10+ times a year) I see people who
> obviously don't speak English natively using it to communicate. The only
> times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when two
> anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French to
> one and other.
>
> Richard
>
>
most people who tour in the US have a little English since it is such a
common second language -- years ago when I was working a summer job
retail there was a French customer -- a middle aged woman who was very
frustrated and speaking in loud French in hopes people would understand
[like the occasional American or British tourists who hopes loud and
slow is all it takes] People were trying to help her -- since I spoke
German fluently at that time, I tried that -- and she had a little
German and so we could help her.
of course with the idiotic 'anti=French' nonsense being fueled by the
right win media in the US at the moment I don't know that someone
wouldn't experience SOME problems -- but for the most part American
customer service folks tend to be very helpful and at least make the
effort --
Aug 3rd 2004, 7:24 am
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Paris Notes (1)
--
"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Richard writes:
> > The only
> > times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when
two
> > anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French
to
> > one and other.
> Don't they hear each other's accent?
> --
> Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
It happens all the time here in Brittany. There are a number of people that
I've spoken to in French several times before realizing that they were
English and I've spoken to many English people who have had the same
experience. I would say that most anglophones are ill-equipped to detect
anything "different" about a French accent. In fact, in Brittany, you are
just glad that they speak so clearly
T.
"Mxsmanic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Richard writes:
> > The only
> > times I've ever seen French used in that way is here in Montreal when
two
> > anglophones assume the other is a francophone and start speaking French
to
> > one and other.
> Don't they hear each other's accent?
> --
> Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
It happens all the time here in Brittany. There are a number of people that
I've spoken to in French several times before realizing that they were
English and I've spoken to many English people who have had the same
experience. I would say that most anglophones are ill-equipped to detect
anything "different" about a French accent. In fact, in Brittany, you are
just glad that they speak so clearly
T.
