OT: America bomb Iraq
Aug 14th 2004, 6:23 am
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
devil extrapolated from data available...
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>
>> And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
>> fear of ending up in a mass grave.
>
>
> Dream on.
>
> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> under Saddam.
>
Well, I don't know too many Iraqis, but the few I do are mainly Kurds and
their perspective seems somewhat at odds with the Iraqis with whom you come
in contact. Of course, your Iraqis likely laughingly acceded to and
participated in the gassing of Kurdish children, while mine preferred to
terrorize Iraqi soldiers with occasional acts of mutilation, both processes
serving in the Napoleonic sense as "an example for the others".
On the other hand, maybe you simply are acquainted with a particularly
nasty bunch of buggers....
TMO
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>
>> And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
>> fear of ending up in a mass grave.
>
>
> Dream on.
>
> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> under Saddam.
>
Well, I don't know too many Iraqis, but the few I do are mainly Kurds and
their perspective seems somewhat at odds with the Iraqis with whom you come
in contact. Of course, your Iraqis likely laughingly acceded to and
participated in the gassing of Kurdish children, while mine preferred to
terrorize Iraqi soldiers with occasional acts of mutilation, both processes
serving in the Napoleonic sense as "an example for the others".
On the other hand, maybe you simply are acquainted with a particularly
nasty bunch of buggers....
TMO
Aug 14th 2004, 8:00 am
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
"devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
news:[email protected]. ..
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
fear
> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> Dream on.
> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> under Saddam.
Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
ago.
Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from the
old regime.
May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being from
Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic.
For the first time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives
at home.
news:[email protected]. ..
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
fear
> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> Dream on.
> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> under Saddam.
Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
ago.
Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from the
old regime.
May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being from
Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic.
For the first time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives
at home.
Aug 14th 2004, 11:07 am
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 13:23:41 -0500, Olivers wrote:
> devil extrapolated from data available...
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>>
>>> And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
>>> fear of ending up in a mass grave.
>>
>>
>> Dream on.
>>
>> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> under Saddam.
>>
> Well, I don't know too many Iraqis, but the few I do are mainly Kurds and
> their perspective seems somewhat at odds with the Iraqis with whom you come
> in contact. Of course, your Iraqis likely laughingly acceded to and
> participated in the gassing of Kurdish children, while mine preferred to
> terrorize Iraqi soldiers with occasional acts of mutilation, both processes
> serving in the Napoleonic sense as "an example for the others".
My Iraqi colleagues are admittedly of the sunni persuasion.
> On the other hand, maybe you simply are acquainted with a particularly
> nasty bunch of buggers....
They certainly had no sympathy for Saddam. OTOH, they see the US presence
as even worse from a political standpoint. But more to the point, they
still have relatives there, and the one thing that's abundantly clear is
that their situation is now considerably worse.
The other point I hear is that the Sadr character apparently is nowhere
near the Shia extremist that the US make sound like, but that he appears
to be a reasonable player even in Sunni eyes. With good family
connections on both sides.
Of course, when looking at Kurds, things get tough. One must remember,
however, that Saddam's repression dealt with a US-engineered Kurd
rebellion. Part of the Iraq destabilization plan after the first gulf
war. Seems to me that to some extent, there should be some shared
responsibility there too?
Anyway, it seems the Kurds are the unlucky guys that always end up on the
wrong side of history. I suspect history will eventually repeat itself
this time again. :-)
> devil extrapolated from data available...
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>>
>>> And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
>>> fear of ending up in a mass grave.
>>
>>
>> Dream on.
>>
>> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> under Saddam.
>>
> Well, I don't know too many Iraqis, but the few I do are mainly Kurds and
> their perspective seems somewhat at odds with the Iraqis with whom you come
> in contact. Of course, your Iraqis likely laughingly acceded to and
> participated in the gassing of Kurdish children, while mine preferred to
> terrorize Iraqi soldiers with occasional acts of mutilation, both processes
> serving in the Napoleonic sense as "an example for the others".
My Iraqi colleagues are admittedly of the sunni persuasion.
> On the other hand, maybe you simply are acquainted with a particularly
> nasty bunch of buggers....
They certainly had no sympathy for Saddam. OTOH, they see the US presence
as even worse from a political standpoint. But more to the point, they
still have relatives there, and the one thing that's abundantly clear is
that their situation is now considerably worse.
The other point I hear is that the Sadr character apparently is nowhere
near the Shia extremist that the US make sound like, but that he appears
to be a reasonable player even in Sunni eyes. With good family
connections on both sides.
Of course, when looking at Kurds, things get tough. One must remember,
however, that Saddam's repression dealt with a US-engineered Kurd
rebellion. Part of the Iraq destabilization plan after the first gulf
war. Seems to me that to some extent, there should be some shared
responsibility there too?
Anyway, it seems the Kurds are the unlucky guys that always end up on the
wrong side of history. I suspect history will eventually repeat itself
this time again. :-)
Aug 14th 2004, 11:15 am
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:04:37 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, devil
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>>
>> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without fear
>> > of ending up in a mass grave.
>>
>>
>> Dream on.
>>
>> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> under Saddam.
>
>
> You hang out with street thugs ?
I don't hang on with conservative republicans, no, thank you.
> In article <[email protected]>, devil
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>>
>> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without fear
>> > of ending up in a mass grave.
>>
>>
>> Dream on.
>>
>> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> under Saddam.
>
>
> You hang out with street thugs ?
I don't hang on with conservative republicans, no, thank you.
Aug 14th 2004, 12:25 pm
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
>
> "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> news:[email protected]. ..
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
> fear
>> > of ending up in a mass grave.
>> Dream on.
>> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> under Saddam.
> Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
> Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
> collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
> probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
> ago.
> Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
> the old regime.
> May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
> stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
> from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
> time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
"victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
>
> "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> news:[email protected]. ..
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
> fear
>> > of ending up in a mass grave.
>> Dream on.
>> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> under Saddam.
> Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
> Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
> collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
> probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
> ago.
> Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
> the old regime.
> May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
> stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
> from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
> time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
"victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
Aug 14th 2004, 1:05 pm
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
In article <[email protected]>, devil
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
>
> >
> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:[email protected]. ..
> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> >>
> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
> > fear
> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dream on.
> >>
> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> >> under Saddam.
> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
>
> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
>
> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
>
> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
>
> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
> > ago.
> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
> > the old regime.
> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
>
> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
opinion... one from a clear agenda.
jay
Sat Aug 14, 2004
mailto:[email protected]
>
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
>
> >
> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:[email protected]. ..
> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> >>
> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
> > fear
> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dream on.
> >>
> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> >> under Saddam.
> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
>
> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
>
> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
>
> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
>
> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
> > ago.
> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
> > the old regime.
> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
>
> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
opinion... one from a clear agenda.
jay
Sat Aug 14, 2004
mailto:[email protected]
>
Aug 14th 2004, 2:16 pm
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:47 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, devil
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
>> > news:[email protected]. ..
>> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
>> > fear
>> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dream on.
>> >>
>> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> >> under Saddam.
>> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
>>
>> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
>>
>> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
>> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
>> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
>>
>> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
>>
>> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
>> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
>> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
>> > ago.
>> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
>> > the old regime.
>> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
>> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
>> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
>> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
>>
>> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
>> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
>> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
>> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
>> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
>> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
>
> That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
> opinion... one from a clear agenda.
Agenda, me?
A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda? I am
not into politics so far.
Can you seriously argue against my point, that this war thing was
predicated upon Iraq falling into American arms, and with no plan B in
case reality would be different? As it predictably was (except to the
idiots at the White House, that is). (Again, I don't think you can argue
with the fact that among many, I did then predict more or less that it
would turn out the way it did.)
> In article <[email protected]>, devil
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
>> > news:[email protected]. ..
>> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
>> > fear
>> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dream on.
>> >>
>> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
>> >> under Saddam.
>> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
>>
>> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
>>
>> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
>> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
>> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
>>
>> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
>>
>> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
>> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
>> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
>> > ago.
>> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
>> > the old regime.
>> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
>> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
>> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
>> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
>>
>> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
>> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
>> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
>> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
>> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
>> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
>
> That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
> opinion... one from a clear agenda.
Agenda, me?
A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda? I am
not into politics so far.
Can you seriously argue against my point, that this war thing was
predicated upon Iraq falling into American arms, and with no plan B in
case reality would be different? As it predictably was (except to the
idiots at the White House, that is). (Again, I don't think you can argue
with the fact that among many, I did then predict more or less that it
would turn out the way it did.)
Aug 14th 2004, 2:45 pm
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
"devil" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]. ..
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:47 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, devil
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> >> > news:[email protected]. ..
> >> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are
without
> >> > fear
> >> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dream on.
> >> >>
> >> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off
Iraq was
> >> >> under Saddam.
> >> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
> >>
> >> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
> >>
> >> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still
poeple
> >> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are
barricaded
> >> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
> >>
> >> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
> >>
> >> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under
Saddam,
> >> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There
was
> >> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than
20 years
> >> > ago.
> >> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being
different from
> >> > the old regime.
> >> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the
situation
> >> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates
being
> >> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the
first
> >> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at
home.
> >>
> >> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US
invaded.
> >> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems
to me
> >> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after
their
> >> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should
have
> >> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy,
police,
> >> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working
etc.
> >
> > That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
> > opinion... one from a clear agenda.
> Agenda, me?
> A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda?
I am
> not into politics so far.
> Can you seriously argue against my point, that this war thing was
> predicated upon Iraq falling into American arms, and with no plan B in
> case reality would be different? As it predictably was (except to the
> idiots at the White House, that is). (Again, I don't think you can
argue
> with the fact that among many, I did then predict more or less that it
> would turn out the way it did.)
George W.'s daddy predicted almost exactly what eventually happened. He
gave those predictions as rationale for not continuing the 1991 war to a
conclusion in Baghdad (and the ouster of Saddam.) Too bad Jr. didn't
listen to Pappy.
Tom
news:[email protected]. ..
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:47 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, devil
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> >> > news:[email protected]. ..
> >> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are
without
> >> > fear
> >> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dream on.
> >> >>
> >> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off
Iraq was
> >> >> under Saddam.
> >> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
> >>
> >> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
> >>
> >> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still
poeple
> >> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are
barricaded
> >> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
> >>
> >> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
> >>
> >> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under
Saddam,
> >> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There
was
> >> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than
20 years
> >> > ago.
> >> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being
different from
> >> > the old regime.
> >> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the
situation
> >> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates
being
> >> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the
first
> >> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at
home.
> >>
> >> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US
invaded.
> >> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems
to me
> >> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after
their
> >> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should
have
> >> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy,
police,
> >> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working
etc.
> >
> > That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
> > opinion... one from a clear agenda.
> Agenda, me?
> A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda?
I am
> not into politics so far.
> Can you seriously argue against my point, that this war thing was
> predicated upon Iraq falling into American arms, and with no plan B in
> case reality would be different? As it predictably was (except to the
> idiots at the White House, that is). (Again, I don't think you can
argue
> with the fact that among many, I did then predict more or less that it
> would turn out the way it did.)
George W.'s daddy predicted almost exactly what eventually happened. He
gave those predictions as rationale for not continuing the 1991 war to a
conclusion in Baghdad (and the ouster of Saddam.) Too bad Jr. didn't
listen to Pappy.
Tom
Aug 14th 2004, 2:54 pm
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
In article <[email protected]>, devil
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:47 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, devil
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> >> > news:[email protected]. ..
> >> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
> >> > fear
> >> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dream on.
> >> >>
> >> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> >> >> under Saddam.
> >> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
> >>
> >> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
> >>
> >> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
> >> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
> >> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
> >>
> >> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
> >>
> >> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
> >> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
> >> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
> >> > ago.
> >> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
> >> > the old regime.
> >> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
> >> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
> >> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
> >> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
> >>
> >> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
> >> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
> >> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
> >> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
> >> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
> >> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
> >
> > That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
> > opinion... one from a clear agenda.
>
>
> Agenda, me?
>
> A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda? I am
> not into politics so far.
>
> Can you seriously argue against my point,
Gallop International has already done so.
jay
Sat Aug 14, 2004
mailto:[email protected]
> that this war thing was
> predicated upon Iraq falling into American arms, and with no plan B in
> case reality would be different? As it predictably was (except to the
> idiots at the White House, that is). (Again, I don't think you can argue
> with the fact that among many, I did then predict more or less that it
> would turn out the way it did.)
>
>
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:47 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, devil
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:00:03 +0000, Lennart Petersen wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "devil" <[email protected]> skrev i meddelandet
> >> > news:[email protected]. ..
> >> >> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:52:16 -0400, Mike wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without
> >> > fear
> >> >> > of ending up in a mass grave.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dream on.
> >> >>
> >> >> Most Iraqis I know are quick to point out how much better off Iraq was
> >> >> under Saddam.
> >> > Possibly you know wrong Iraqis ?
> >>
> >> Which ones are the right ones and which ones are the wrong ones?
> >>
> >> Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam, but still poeple
> >> had jobs, and life had a semblance of normalcy. Now people are barricaded
> >> in their basement and they are afraid of even going out.
> >>
> >> Yje whole place is in total chaos, from what I understand.
> >>
> >> > Indeed there was a number of Iraqis being well to do under Saddam,
> >> > collaborating or even being members of the Baath party. There was
> >> > probably a good time but that was before the Iran war more than 20 years
> >> > ago.
> >> > Today's situation in Iraq is indeed troublesome but being different from
> >> > the old regime.
> >> > May end up in horror but there's also possibilities that the situation
> >> > stabilizes and end up in a good scenario. I've a few work mates being
> >> > from Iraq and they're all somewhat guarded optimistic. For the first
> >> > time since long time ago they've a good contact with relatives at home.
> >>
> >> I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
> >> Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
> >> it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
> >> "victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
> >> dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
> >> army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
> >
> > That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
> > opinion... one from a clear agenda.
>
>
> Agenda, me?
>
> A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda? I am
> not into politics so far.
>
> Can you seriously argue against my point,
Gallop International has already done so.
jay
Sat Aug 14, 2004
mailto:[email protected]
> that this war thing was
> predicated upon Iraq falling into American arms, and with no plan B in
> case reality would be different? As it predictably was (except to the
> idiots at the White House, that is). (Again, I don't think you can argue
> with the fact that among many, I did then predict more or less that it
> would turn out the way it did.)
>
>
Aug 14th 2004, 5:11 pm
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
devil <[email protected]> climbed onto an orange crate and shouted:
>Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam,
It is an interesting turn of phrase to call torture and mass murder
"not terribly pleasant."
>I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
>Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
>it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
>"victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
>dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
>army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
You are absolutely right about this.
One of the other problems is that there were not enough troops to keep
order after the conventional military victory because of Dumbsfeld's
idea of "war on the cheap" as opposed to the Powell doctrine of
overwhelming force. Someone (unfortunately I've forgotten the
reference) pointed out that the number of Allied troops in occupied
Germany at the end of WWII was around 1 Allied soldier for every 40
Germans. There could be no effective resistance because there was
almost literally a soldier on every street corner. In contrast, after
the conventional military victory over Iraq there was only 1 soldier
for about every 200 Iraqis, the result being that opposition could
organize relatively unimpeded.
--
The bass player is like a good offensive line. The team sucks when you are not on
your game. When you're on your game, everyone congratulates the quarterback, running
back, and receivers. -- Dave in a.g.b.
>Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam,
It is an interesting turn of phrase to call torture and mass murder
"not terribly pleasant."
>I think it has already been horror, more or less since the US invaded.
>Even if one would agree with the invasion (which I don't), it seems to me
>it should be very clear that the way the US handled Iraq after their
>"victory" was a total disaster. For instance they never should have
>dismessed overnight the entire government structure, bureaucracy, police,
>army etc. They should have kept as much of what was still working etc.
You are absolutely right about this.
One of the other problems is that there were not enough troops to keep
order after the conventional military victory because of Dumbsfeld's
idea of "war on the cheap" as opposed to the Powell doctrine of
overwhelming force. Someone (unfortunately I've forgotten the
reference) pointed out that the number of Allied troops in occupied
Germany at the end of WWII was around 1 Allied soldier for every 40
Germans. There could be no effective resistance because there was
almost literally a soldier on every street corner. In contrast, after
the conventional military victory over Iraq there was only 1 soldier
for about every 200 Iraqis, the result being that opposition could
organize relatively unimpeded.
--
The bass player is like a good offensive line. The team sucks when you are not on
your game. When you're on your game, everyone congratulates the quarterback, running
back, and receivers. -- Dave in a.g.b.
Aug 14th 2004, 5:25 pm
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:54:18 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, devil
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:47 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
>>
>> > That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
>> > opinion... one from a clear agenda.
>>
>>
>> Agenda, me?
>>
>> A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda? I am
>> not into politics so far.
>>
>> Can you seriously argue against my point,
>
> Gallop International has already done so.
Who is that? A horse?
> In article <[email protected]>, devil
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:05:47 -0700, Go Fig wrote:
>>
>> > That an opinion, but as we have no control study... it is just a
>> > opinion... one from a clear agenda.
>>
>>
>> Agenda, me?
>>
>> A strong view, perhaps. Which I don't think I hide. But an agenda? I am
>> not into politics so far.
>>
>> Can you seriously argue against my point,
>
> Gallop International has already done so.
Who is that? A horse?
Aug 14th 2004, 5:32 pm
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 05:11:13 +0000, Charles Hawtrey wrote:
> devil <[email protected]> climbed onto an orange crate and shouted:
>
>>Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam,
>
> It is an interesting turn of phrase to call torture and mass murder
> "not terribly pleasant."
Of course. But let's put things under context, how many of the people
living in Iraq were really affected by that?
I lived in Brazil at the time of the military regime. I suppose torture,
disappearance and mass murder was not uncommon either, although since it
was with help and support of the CIA etc., that small detail might not
have received as much attention in the US as it should have. But anyway,
coming back to my point, what this really meant is that you would quickly
learn to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business.
Of course, for the folks who insisted in politics, and had a conscience,
the story may well have been different. But these tend to be a small
minority.
for most people in Iraq today, life is hell, and much more so than under
Saddam. As to politics, keeping one's mouth shut, enemies and life being
dangerous, I am not so sure it's all that different. Except that the
people affected may not be quite the same guys. Are the US occupants all
that much nicer than Saddam, I wonder?
> devil <[email protected]> climbed onto an orange crate and shouted:
>
>>Life may not have been terribly pleasant under Saddam,
>
> It is an interesting turn of phrase to call torture and mass murder
> "not terribly pleasant."
Of course. But let's put things under context, how many of the people
living in Iraq were really affected by that?
I lived in Brazil at the time of the military regime. I suppose torture,
disappearance and mass murder was not uncommon either, although since it
was with help and support of the CIA etc., that small detail might not
have received as much attention in the US as it should have. But anyway,
coming back to my point, what this really meant is that you would quickly
learn to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business.
Of course, for the folks who insisted in politics, and had a conscience,
the story may well have been different. But these tend to be a small
minority.
for most people in Iraq today, life is hell, and much more so than under
Saddam. As to politics, keeping one's mouth shut, enemies and life being
dangerous, I am not so sure it's all that different. Except that the
people affected may not be quite the same guys. Are the US occupants all
that much nicer than Saddam, I wonder?
Aug 14th 2004, 7:30 pm
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
devil <[email protected]> wrote:
> for most people in Iraq today, life is hell, and much more so than under
> Saddam. As to politics, keeping one's mouth shut, enemies and life being
> dangerous, I am not so sure it's all that different. Except that the
> people affected may not be quite the same guys. Are the US occupants all
> that much nicer than Saddam, I wonder?
I thought this was an interesting read:
http://www.polosbastards.com/smithiraq110804.htm
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
> for most people in Iraq today, life is hell, and much more so than under
> Saddam. As to politics, keeping one's mouth shut, enemies and life being
> dangerous, I am not so sure it's all that different. Except that the
> people affected may not be quite the same guys. Are the US occupants all
> that much nicer than Saddam, I wonder?
I thought this was an interesting read:
http://www.polosbastards.com/smithiraq110804.htm
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Aug 14th 2004, 7:47 pm
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:02:05 +0200, Nils Zonneveld
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:32:26 +0200, Nils Zonneveld
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:09:42 +0200, Nils Zonneveld
>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>Mike wrote:
>>>>>>And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without fear
>>>>>>of ending up in a mass grave.
>>>>>What has that to do with spell checkers? Responding to your assertion
>>>>>though, the Iraqi's still have very good reason to fear for their lifes.
>>>>> Or did you think that when you bomb a city no one will get hurt?
>>>>No more than UN officials and thousands of other innocent victims are
>>>>hurt, when somebody blows them up with a car bomb.
>>>Since when do two wrongs make a right?
>>
>>
>> Who said they did?
>You did.
Where did I say two wrongs a right.
>You seem to want divert attention from one atrocity by naming
>another.
I did no such thing.
>> Why do you focus on just the Americans?
>If you broke into my house uninvited, I certainly would focus on just you.
Have you thought of having professional counseling?
<[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:32:26 +0200, Nils Zonneveld
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:09:42 +0200, Nils Zonneveld
>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>Mike wrote:
>>>>>>And now the Iraqis can even tell us yanks how arrogant we are without fear
>>>>>>of ending up in a mass grave.
>>>>>What has that to do with spell checkers? Responding to your assertion
>>>>>though, the Iraqi's still have very good reason to fear for their lifes.
>>>>> Or did you think that when you bomb a city no one will get hurt?
>>>>No more than UN officials and thousands of other innocent victims are
>>>>hurt, when somebody blows them up with a car bomb.
>>>Since when do two wrongs make a right?
>>
>>
>> Who said they did?
>You did.
Where did I say two wrongs a right.
>You seem to want divert attention from one atrocity by naming
>another.
I did no such thing.
>> Why do you focus on just the Americans?
>If you broke into my house uninvited, I certainly would focus on just you.
Have you thought of having professional counseling?
Aug 14th 2004, 8:07 pm
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America bomb Iraq
"Miguel Cruz" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> I thought this was an interesting read:
> http://www.polosbastards.com/smithiraq110804.htm
Tanks for that link. Sad reading.
Sjoerd
news:[email protected]...
> I thought this was an interesting read:
> http://www.polosbastards.com/smithiraq110804.htm
Tanks for that link. Sad reading.
Sjoerd
