Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Aug 16th 2004, 9:03 pm
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
>>>>> "Watcher" == Watcher <[email protected]> writes:
Watcher> For me, it's English (native), German, Italian, French,
Watcher> and Spanish, pretty much in that order. I can read a
Watcher> newspaper or magazine in all 5 languages, can converse
Watcher> and write fluently in English and fairly fluently in
Watcher> German, can converse passably as a tourist in Italian,
Watcher> less so in French and Spanish.
I speak Cantonese natively, and English, Mandarin, German in that
order. I normally won't say I speak French, Japanese, Spanish or
Italian, because I just know enough of these to get around as a
tourist. I do know enough of them, though, to read easy books and
manuals.
Watcher> It seems that the more languages you learn, the easier it
Watcher> is to learn new ones. For example, the construction
Watcher> "avoir besoin de" is strange and a little hard to grasp
Watcher> if you first encounter it in French, but if you already
Watcher> know "avere bisogna" in Italian, then you will learn it
Watcher> in French without batting an eyelash. And once you're
Watcher> familiar with the concepts of declensions, conjugations,
Watcher> and agreement of gender, number and case in one language,
Watcher> you've already overcome major hurdles in the next
Watcher> language you study.
Your examples only works for *related* languages. All the languages
you listed are either Romance or Germanic, and even these two groups a
very closely related. Try to do that with Japanese or Chinese and see
how far that holds.
Watcher> My favorite languages (other than English, which is still
Watcher> for me the richest language) are German and Italian.
Watcher> Italian, because it is such fun to speak and such a
Watcher> beautiful language -- they seem to go out of their way to
Watcher> make it sound beautiful --
But I find it sound so strange.
Watcher> and because Italy is my favorite tourist destination.
Watcher> German, because it is intellectually satisfying -- all
Watcher> the pieces fit together like a puzzle --
What do you mean by that? You mean the compound words? Then, you
haven't seen the real thing: Chinese.
Watcher> and because I think it's really neat to speak a language
Watcher> with a different word order than English;
Try also Japanese and Tagalog.
Watcher> the effect this has on one's thinking processes always
Watcher> fascinates me.
Yeah. But I'm already used to that because of computer programming
languages.
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm- ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Watcher> For me, it's English (native), German, Italian, French,
Watcher> and Spanish, pretty much in that order. I can read a
Watcher> newspaper or magazine in all 5 languages, can converse
Watcher> and write fluently in English and fairly fluently in
Watcher> German, can converse passably as a tourist in Italian,
Watcher> less so in French and Spanish.
I speak Cantonese natively, and English, Mandarin, German in that
order. I normally won't say I speak French, Japanese, Spanish or
Italian, because I just know enough of these to get around as a
tourist. I do know enough of them, though, to read easy books and
manuals.
Watcher> It seems that the more languages you learn, the easier it
Watcher> is to learn new ones. For example, the construction
Watcher> "avoir besoin de" is strange and a little hard to grasp
Watcher> if you first encounter it in French, but if you already
Watcher> know "avere bisogna" in Italian, then you will learn it
Watcher> in French without batting an eyelash. And once you're
Watcher> familiar with the concepts of declensions, conjugations,
Watcher> and agreement of gender, number and case in one language,
Watcher> you've already overcome major hurdles in the next
Watcher> language you study.
Your examples only works for *related* languages. All the languages
you listed are either Romance or Germanic, and even these two groups a
very closely related. Try to do that with Japanese or Chinese and see
how far that holds.
Watcher> My favorite languages (other than English, which is still
Watcher> for me the richest language) are German and Italian.
Watcher> Italian, because it is such fun to speak and such a
Watcher> beautiful language -- they seem to go out of their way to
Watcher> make it sound beautiful --
But I find it sound so strange.
Watcher> and because Italy is my favorite tourist destination.
Watcher> German, because it is intellectually satisfying -- all
Watcher> the pieces fit together like a puzzle --
What do you mean by that? You mean the compound words? Then, you
haven't seen the real thing: Chinese.
Watcher> and because I think it's really neat to speak a language
Watcher> with a different word order than English;
Try also Japanese and Tagalog.
Watcher> the effect this has on one's thinking processes always
Watcher> fascinates me.
Yeah. But I'm already used to that because of computer programming
languages.
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm- ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Aug 16th 2004, 10:36 pm
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
"Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )" <[email protected]> wrote:
> In a TV drama, characters might use fairly simple language but add in
> slang and accents that the non-fluent language learner has to fight with.
Good point. Although fairly fluent in Spanish, and although I had no
trouble speaking or understanding while in Colombia, I had some
difficulty with the spoken language in the move "MarÃa Eres Lllena de
Gracia" (I recommend it).
The "translation", however, was remarkable. It's the best
interpretation I've ever seen in a movie as the dialogue was not
translated but interpreted. The interpreter is probably a well-read
natural speaker of both languages.
A recent President of Mexico had an interpreter who I regarded with
awe. Whether going from/to English/Spanish, her interpretations were
absolutely incredible, so rich, precise, and nuanced that I gasped in
admiration.
__________________________________________________ __________
Un San Francisqueño en San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net
> In a TV drama, characters might use fairly simple language but add in
> slang and accents that the non-fluent language learner has to fight with.
Good point. Although fairly fluent in Spanish, and although I had no
trouble speaking or understanding while in Colombia, I had some
difficulty with the spoken language in the move "MarÃa Eres Lllena de
Gracia" (I recommend it).
The "translation", however, was remarkable. It's the best
interpretation I've ever seen in a movie as the dialogue was not
translated but interpreted. The interpreter is probably a well-read
natural speaker of both languages.
A recent President of Mexico had an interpreter who I regarded with
awe. Whether going from/to English/Spanish, her interpretations were
absolutely incredible, so rich, precise, and nuanced that I gasped in
admiration.
__________________________________________________ __________
Un San Francisqueño en San Francisco
http://geocities.com/dancefest/ http://geocities.com/iconoc/
ICQ: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103 IClast at SFbay Net
Aug 16th 2004, 11:44 pm
#63
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:47:28 -0700, in rec.travel.europe, "Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo
Gloria'' )" <[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
... [email protected] wrote:
... >
...
... > If you try to learn Spanish now you run the danger of getting lots of
... > interference from your other Romance languages.
... >
... Does this really *have* to be?
Alas, yes. I speak Portuguese, French and Italian, but if I read in Spanish for a while
all the first three go down the drain. Spanish is like the flu virus for me... better
avoid it.
Gloria'' )" <[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :
... [email protected] wrote:
... >
...
... > If you try to learn Spanish now you run the danger of getting lots of
... > interference from your other Romance languages.
... >
... Does this really *have* to be?
Alas, yes. I speak Portuguese, French and Italian, but if I read in Spanish for a while
all the first three go down the drain. Spanish is like the flu virus for me... better
avoid it.
Aug 17th 2004, 12:09 am
#64
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] (Wassup its Will) wrote:
> 2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
> idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
> of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
My take on it is that for purposes of travel and general education, one is
a lot better off learning a little of many languages rather than attaining
great fluency in one. If your life develops in such a way that you need
one language more than the others, inevitably you tend to get better at
that one anyway.
I also believe that in general, if you're not aiming to speak a language
fluently but just to use it passably, you are better off learning lots of
vocabulary and not paying too much attention to the more complex elements
of grammar. ("I like ham sandwich" is understandable; "I would like a kjh
mnbdgtwf" is not.) Of course I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't learn
how to form plurals, important irregular verbs, and so on.
However, as said elsewhere in the thread, it might be awkward at this
stage to add Spanish to the mix (as someone with passable day-to-day
Italian and very little Spanish, I find it extremely confusing in Spain
when a word /doesn't/ mean what a similar Italian word suggests it might).
German would be a good choice, I think. But if you need to learn Spanish,
go right ahead; just be aware that the similarities with Italian are traps
as well as signposts.
[email protected] (Wassup its Will) wrote:
> 2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
> idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
> of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?
My take on it is that for purposes of travel and general education, one is
a lot better off learning a little of many languages rather than attaining
great fluency in one. If your life develops in such a way that you need
one language more than the others, inevitably you tend to get better at
that one anyway.
I also believe that in general, if you're not aiming to speak a language
fluently but just to use it passably, you are better off learning lots of
vocabulary and not paying too much attention to the more complex elements
of grammar. ("I like ham sandwich" is understandable; "I would like a kjh
mnbdgtwf" is not.) Of course I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't learn
how to form plurals, important irregular verbs, and so on.
However, as said elsewhere in the thread, it might be awkward at this
stage to add Spanish to the mix (as someone with passable day-to-day
Italian and very little Spanish, I find it extremely confusing in Spain
when a word /doesn't/ mean what a similar Italian word suggests it might).
German would be a good choice, I think. But if you need to learn Spanish,
go right ahead; just be aware that the similarities with Italian are traps
as well as signposts.
Aug 17th 2004, 1:05 am
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
[email protected] (Watcher) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> It seems that the more languages you learn, the easier it is to learn
> new ones. For example, the construction "avoir besoin de" is strange
> and a little hard to grasp if you first encounter it in French, but if
> you already know "avere bisogna" in Italian, then you will learn it in
> French without batting an eyelash. And once you're familiar with the
> concepts of declensions, conjugations, and agreement of gender, number
> and case in one language, you've already overcome major hurdles in the
> next language you study.
Perhaps the main point is that it is difficult to learn basic French,
Spanish and Italian on the same time. When you allready know one of
the languages pretty well, it would of course make it easier to learn
another closely related language. There isn't necesarily any conflict
between those statements. On the other hand I know lots of exsamples
of that one language suffers when you learn a new closely related
language and seldom practice the first you learned. For instance I
know several Norwegians that have lived in Sweden or Denmark for
decades and their spelling in Norwegian is awful.
Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the more you
are exposed to that language. I think this is an important explanation
why people in The Scandianivian countries and the Netherlands
generally speaks better English than in onter countries on the
European continent. The use subtitles instead of dubbing English
speaking movies and tv programs.
Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
know. It is limited how many languages the human brain is capable of
learning though. Most people will have great difficulties learning say
more than 10 languages fluently. I also think that it is easier to
learn another language if you know another language with fairly the
same grammar to begin with.
Jan
> It seems that the more languages you learn, the easier it is to learn
> new ones. For example, the construction "avoir besoin de" is strange
> and a little hard to grasp if you first encounter it in French, but if
> you already know "avere bisogna" in Italian, then you will learn it in
> French without batting an eyelash. And once you're familiar with the
> concepts of declensions, conjugations, and agreement of gender, number
> and case in one language, you've already overcome major hurdles in the
> next language you study.
Perhaps the main point is that it is difficult to learn basic French,
Spanish and Italian on the same time. When you allready know one of
the languages pretty well, it would of course make it easier to learn
another closely related language. There isn't necesarily any conflict
between those statements. On the other hand I know lots of exsamples
of that one language suffers when you learn a new closely related
language and seldom practice the first you learned. For instance I
know several Norwegians that have lived in Sweden or Denmark for
decades and their spelling in Norwegian is awful.
Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the more you
are exposed to that language. I think this is an important explanation
why people in The Scandianivian countries and the Netherlands
generally speaks better English than in onter countries on the
European continent. The use subtitles instead of dubbing English
speaking movies and tv programs.
Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
know. It is limited how many languages the human brain is capable of
learning though. Most people will have great difficulties learning say
more than 10 languages fluently. I also think that it is easier to
learn another language if you know another language with fairly the
same grammar to begin with.
Jan
Aug 17th 2004, 4:24 am
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' ) writes:
>
> > Yes, but what is causing the problem?
>
> Their extensive dependency on context to help them with their inability
> to understand what is actually being said.
>
Watch a movie with the sound turned down. How much did you miss that you
would have remembered later? It depends on the movie, of course. Don't
do this with "My Dinner With Andre".
> Unfortunately, to use the language effectively in real-world situations,
> they'll have to be able to deal often with unexpected or unfamiliar
> contexts.
>
What I was driving at was that needing to use context to guess at what
is being said is a symptom of several (at least) possible underlying
problems. If you want to correct the underlying problems, just
commenting on the need for context doesn't do that.
--
"It has to be big", Tyler says. "Picture this: you on top of the world’s
tallest building, the whole building taken over by Project Mayhem. Smoke
rolling out of the windows. Desks falling into the crowds on the street.
A real opera of death, that’s what you’re going to get." -+Chuck
Palahniuk, "Fight Club"
>
> Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' ) writes:
>
> > Yes, but what is causing the problem?
>
> Their extensive dependency on context to help them with their inability
> to understand what is actually being said.
>
Watch a movie with the sound turned down. How much did you miss that you
would have remembered later? It depends on the movie, of course. Don't
do this with "My Dinner With Andre".
> Unfortunately, to use the language effectively in real-world situations,
> they'll have to be able to deal often with unexpected or unfamiliar
> contexts.
>
What I was driving at was that needing to use context to guess at what
is being said is a symptom of several (at least) possible underlying
problems. If you want to correct the underlying problems, just
commenting on the need for context doesn't do that.
--
"It has to be big", Tyler says. "Picture this: you on top of the world’s
tallest building, the whole building taken over by Project Mayhem. Smoke
rolling out of the windows. Desks falling into the crowds on the street.
A real opera of death, that’s what you’re going to get." -+Chuck
Palahniuk, "Fight Club"
Aug 17th 2004, 5:59 am
#67
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
On 17 Aug 2004 06:05:30 -0700, [email protected] (?ystein)
wrote:
>Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the more you
>are exposed to that language. I think this is an important explanation
>why people in The Scandianivian countries and the Netherlands
>generally speaks better English than in onter countries on the
>European continent. The use subtitles instead of dubbing English
>speaking movies and tv programs.
We spent ten weeks in a flat in Helsinki this summer past (save
for two weeks traveling through Germany) and caught up on a lot
of American television we hadn't seen before, e.g, "Friends",
which we never watched at home. This was possible because the
Finns don't dub in Finn in TV shows or movies, but rather use
Finnish subtitles. Younger Finns are remarkable fluent in
English, generally with an American accent.
In Germany we couldn't watch American shows because they were
dubbed into German. Although I know some German, I'm rusty enough
that I can't follow the rapid speech on TV.
I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild having appeared on
American TV in the 1979s. I used to receive residual payments
from time to tome for repeat showings of the program, and often
wondered when I received a check for the showing in Austria
whether I had been dubbed in.
>Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
>it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
>know.
Or it may simply be that you know more languages because you are
somewhat gifted at learning languages. Correlation does not
necesarily mean causation.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
wrote:
>Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the more you
>are exposed to that language. I think this is an important explanation
>why people in The Scandianivian countries and the Netherlands
>generally speaks better English than in onter countries on the
>European continent. The use subtitles instead of dubbing English
>speaking movies and tv programs.
We spent ten weeks in a flat in Helsinki this summer past (save
for two weeks traveling through Germany) and caught up on a lot
of American television we hadn't seen before, e.g, "Friends",
which we never watched at home. This was possible because the
Finns don't dub in Finn in TV shows or movies, but rather use
Finnish subtitles. Younger Finns are remarkable fluent in
English, generally with an American accent.
In Germany we couldn't watch American shows because they were
dubbed into German. Although I know some German, I'm rusty enough
that I can't follow the rapid speech on TV.
I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild having appeared on
American TV in the 1979s. I used to receive residual payments
from time to tome for repeat showings of the program, and often
wondered when I received a check for the showing in Austria
whether I had been dubbed in.
>Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
>it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
>know.
Or it may simply be that you know more languages because you are
somewhat gifted at learning languages. Correlation does not
necesarily mean causation.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Aug 17th 2004, 6:41 am
#68
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
[email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
> it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
> know. It is limited how many languages the human brain is capable of
> learning though.
It is highly unlikely that the human brain has such a limit.
> Most people will have great difficulties learning say
> more than 10 languages fluently.
Only because it takes so darn long that they have difficulty finding
enough time and/or motivation to do it.
Bjorn
> Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
> it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
> know. It is limited how many languages the human brain is capable of
> learning though.
It is highly unlikely that the human brain has such a limit.
> Most people will have great difficulties learning say
> more than 10 languages fluently.
Only because it takes so darn long that they have difficulty finding
enough time and/or motivation to do it.
Bjorn
Aug 17th 2004, 8:09 am
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
"Hatunen" <[email protected]> kirjoitti viestissä
news:[email protected]...
> I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild having appeared on
> American TV in the 1979s. I used to receive residual payments
> from time to tome for repeat showings of the program, and often
> wondered when I received a check for the showing in Austria
> whether I had been dubbed in.
> >Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
> >it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
> >know.
I didn't know you are a celebrity mr. John Saffro.
news:[email protected]...
> I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild having appeared on
> American TV in the 1979s. I used to receive residual payments
> from time to tome for repeat showings of the program, and often
> wondered when I received a check for the showing in Austria
> whether I had been dubbed in.
> >Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
> >it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
> >know.
I didn't know you are a celebrity mr. John Saffro.
Aug 17th 2004, 9:26 am
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
Hatunen writes:
> I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild having appeared on
> American TV in the 1979s.
As John Saffro in "Petrocelli"?
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
> I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild having appeared on
> American TV in the 1979s.
As John Saffro in "Petrocelli"?
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
Aug 17th 2004, 9:27 am
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
>>>>> "Jan" == ?ystein <[email protected]> writes:
Jan> Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the
Jan> more you are exposed to that language. I think this is an
Jan> important explanation why people in The Scandianivian
Jan> countries and the Netherlands generally speaks better English
Jan> than in onter countries on the European continent. The use
Jan> subtitles instead of dubbing English speaking movies and tv
Jan> programs.
Maybe, the English speakers should start consider adding English
subtitles to their English movies, so as to improve their capability
of spelling English correctly? :)
Jan> Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably
Jan> true that it comes easier to learn new languages the more
Jan> languages you allready know. It is limited how many languages
Jan> the human brain is capable of learning though.
Has this limit been scientifically found? Has its existence been even
proved?
(Of course, human beings have a limited lifespan. Assuming one can
live up to 140 years and one can learn one language in a year, that
would still give a limit of 140. Definitely a finite number. But
don't forget that most parts of our brains are still underutilized.)
Jan> Most people will have great difficulties learning say more
Jan> than 10 languages fluently. I also think that it is easier to
Jan> learn another language if you know another language with
Jan> fairly the same grammar to begin with.
I don't have problems learning and keeping to know 10 or more computer
languages. The problem with human languages seems not the complexity
(quantity), but the size (quantity). You need to learn a lot of
words, often groups with subtle differences. You need to learn a lot
of idiomatic expressions, etc. Otherwise, you can't do much with a
language. Without computer languages, you can be already quite
expressive and productive (within the problem domain) with a very
limited vocabulary.
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm- ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Jan> Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the
Jan> more you are exposed to that language. I think this is an
Jan> important explanation why people in The Scandianivian
Jan> countries and the Netherlands generally speaks better English
Jan> than in onter countries on the European continent. The use
Jan> subtitles instead of dubbing English speaking movies and tv
Jan> programs.
Maybe, the English speakers should start consider adding English
subtitles to their English movies, so as to improve their capability
of spelling English correctly? :)
Jan> Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably
Jan> true that it comes easier to learn new languages the more
Jan> languages you allready know. It is limited how many languages
Jan> the human brain is capable of learning though.
Has this limit been scientifically found? Has its existence been even
proved?
(Of course, human beings have a limited lifespan. Assuming one can
live up to 140 years and one can learn one language in a year, that
would still give a limit of 140. Definitely a finite number. But
don't forget that most parts of our brains are still underutilized.)
Jan> Most people will have great difficulties learning say more
Jan> than 10 languages fluently. I also think that it is easier to
Jan> learn another language if you know another language with
Jan> fairly the same grammar to begin with.
I don't have problems learning and keeping to know 10 or more computer
languages. The problem with human languages seems not the complexity
(quantity), but the size (quantity). You need to learn a lot of
words, often groups with subtle differences. You need to learn a lot
of idiomatic expressions, etc. Otherwise, you can't do much with a
language. Without computer languages, you can be already quite
expressive and productive (within the problem domain) with a very
limited vocabulary.
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm- ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Aug 17th 2004, 7:05 pm
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
>>>>> "Hatunen" == Hatunen <[email protected]> writes:
Hatunen> We spent ten weeks in a flat in Helsinki this summer past
Hatunen> (save for two weeks traveling through Germany) and caught
Hatunen> up on a lot of American television we hadn't seen before,
Hatunen> e.g, "Friends", which we never watched at home. This was
Hatunen> possible because the Finns don't dub in Finn in TV shows
Hatunen> or movies, but rather use Finnish subtitles.
My Finnish friend told me the TV stations once attempted to dub movies
in Finnish. The the audience all complained about that, even those
very old Finns who don't understand spoken English at all. So, they
went back to showing the movies in the original language, providing
subtitles.
Hatunen> In Germany we couldn't watch American shows because they
Hatunen> were dubbed into German.
And they showed Jacky Chan's HK-produced films in a dubbed version,
not in Cantonese! :(
Hatunen> Although I know some German, I'm rusty enough that I
Hatunen> can't follow the rapid speech on TV.
Me too. And I don't think it makes any sense to watch a Hollywood
film in a dubbed language which I'm less familiar with than English.
(I'm more familiar with British English than American, though.) I
have to catch the occasional time slots where the local German cinemas
would show an "o.V." (original version).
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm- ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Hatunen> We spent ten weeks in a flat in Helsinki this summer past
Hatunen> (save for two weeks traveling through Germany) and caught
Hatunen> up on a lot of American television we hadn't seen before,
Hatunen> e.g, "Friends", which we never watched at home. This was
Hatunen> possible because the Finns don't dub in Finn in TV shows
Hatunen> or movies, but rather use Finnish subtitles.
My Finnish friend told me the TV stations once attempted to dub movies
in Finnish. The the audience all complained about that, even those
very old Finns who don't understand spoken English at all. So, they
went back to showing the movies in the original language, providing
subtitles.
Hatunen> In Germany we couldn't watch American shows because they
Hatunen> were dubbed into German.
And they showed Jacky Chan's HK-produced films in a dubbed version,
not in Cantonese! :(
Hatunen> Although I know some German, I'm rusty enough that I
Hatunen> can't follow the rapid speech on TV.
Me too. And I don't think it makes any sense to watch a Hollywood
film in a dubbed language which I'm less familiar with than English.
(I'm more familiar with British English than American, though.) I
have to catch the occasional time slots where the local German cinemas
would show an "o.V." (original version).
--
Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm- ~{@nJX6X~}
E-mail: [email protected]
Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
Aug 17th 2004, 8:47 pm
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
[email protected] (Bjorn Olsson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
> > it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
> > know. It is limited how many languages the human brain is capable of
> > learning though.
>
> It is highly unlikely that the human brain has such a limit.
>
I have heard people refer to rewievs that suggest there is such a
limit. If you have heard about rewievs conculding otherwise that is
interesting. There are lots of opposite conclutions in this line of
reaseach.
> > Most people will have great difficulties learning say
> > more than 10 languages fluently.
>
> Only because it takes so darn long that they have difficulty finding
> enough time and/or motivation to do it.
>
As important is that the language has to be practiced regulary if you
should be able to use them over time.
Also you have the effect of living in a community with a very similar
language as in the Scandinavian country. It is typical that
Scandinavians living in another Scandianvian country for a long time
is not able to speak and write real either in their mothers tounge or
in the language spoken in the country they live, because they mix
their vocabulary, accent and grammar all the time.
Jan.
> [email protected] (?ystein) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
>
> > Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably true that
> > it comes easier to learn new languages the more languages you allready
> > know. It is limited how many languages the human brain is capable of
> > learning though.
>
> It is highly unlikely that the human brain has such a limit.
>
I have heard people refer to rewievs that suggest there is such a
limit. If you have heard about rewievs conculding otherwise that is
interesting. There are lots of opposite conclutions in this line of
reaseach.
> > Most people will have great difficulties learning say
> > more than 10 languages fluently.
>
> Only because it takes so darn long that they have difficulty finding
> enough time and/or motivation to do it.
>
As important is that the language has to be practiced regulary if you
should be able to use them over time.
Also you have the effect of living in a community with a very similar
language as in the Scandinavian country. It is typical that
Scandinavians living in another Scandianvian country for a long time
is not able to speak and write real either in their mothers tounge or
in the language spoken in the country they live, because they mix
their vocabulary, accent and grammar all the time.
Jan.
Aug 18th 2004, 1:38 am
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
LEE Sau Dan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >>>>> "Jan" == ?ystein <[email protected]> writes:
>
> Jan> Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the
> Jan> more you are exposed to that language. I think this is an
> Jan> important explanation why people in The Scandianivian
> Jan> countries and the Netherlands generally speaks better English
> Jan> than in onter countries on the European continent. The use
> Jan> subtitles instead of dubbing English speaking movies and tv
> Jan> programs.
>
> Maybe, the English speakers should start consider adding English
> subtitles to their English movies, so as to improve their capability
> of spelling English correctly? :)
>
For that particualt problem I guess the frightening truth is that it
is necesary to turn the tv off and read books insted ;D
> Jan> Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably
> Jan> true that it comes easier to learn new languages the more
> Jan> languages you allready know. It is limited how many languages
> Jan> the human brain is capable of learning though.
>
> Has this limit been scientifically found? Has its existence been even
> proved?
>
I have only heard so as second hand information.
>
> Jan> Most people will have great difficulties learning say more
> Jan> than 10 languages fluently. I also think that it is easier to
> Jan> learn another language if you know another language with
> Jan> fairly the same grammar to begin with.
>
> I don't have problems learning and keeping to know 10 or more computer
> languages. The problem with human languages seems not the complexity
> (quantity), but the size (quantity). You need to learn a lot of
> words, often groups with subtle differences. You need to learn a lot
> of idiomatic expressions, etc. Otherwise, you can't do much with a
> language. Without computer languages, you can be already quite
> expressive and productive (within the problem domain) with a very
> limited vocabulary.
Your example is better for illustrating the differences than the
similarities between programming and human commuication.
As you indicate you need no know just a few diffent programming
commands to make a lot of programs. If you know 2000 words (and the
basic grammars) of a language, you will probably read a lot of
unfamiliar words in a newspaper.
I guess you can suggest that computerprogramming has 2 different types
of grammer - objectoriented (is that the right English term?) and
"structural" (someuse that term for traditional programming
languages). Objectoriented is just a way to make the other way more
effective.
You use computer programming to solve problems. That is the easy part
when it comes to learning langues, in my experience. How to find the
way to the hotel, order a pizza with ham and cheese, tell your name
and ask for a ticket to Bergen on the right train, is the easy part.
The difficult part in my experience is discussions, unstructured
conversations and listen to someone talk about something you don't
know what is to begin with. Perhaps one could say, the more
unstructured the more difficult to communicate and the more
interesting conversation. Programming on the other hand one might
suggest is the science of structuring information to a degree where
every program is built from the same moduls of code used lots of times
before.
Jan
> >>>>> "Jan" == ?ystein <[email protected]> writes:
>
> Jan> Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the
> Jan> more you are exposed to that language. I think this is an
> Jan> important explanation why people in The Scandianivian
> Jan> countries and the Netherlands generally speaks better English
> Jan> than in onter countries on the European continent. The use
> Jan> subtitles instead of dubbing English speaking movies and tv
> Jan> programs.
>
> Maybe, the English speakers should start consider adding English
> subtitles to their English movies, so as to improve their capability
> of spelling English correctly? :)
>
For that particualt problem I guess the frightening truth is that it
is necesary to turn the tv off and read books insted ;D
> Jan> Within the numbers of languages you refer to it is probably
> Jan> true that it comes easier to learn new languages the more
> Jan> languages you allready know. It is limited how many languages
> Jan> the human brain is capable of learning though.
>
> Has this limit been scientifically found? Has its existence been even
> proved?
>
I have only heard so as second hand information.
>
> Jan> Most people will have great difficulties learning say more
> Jan> than 10 languages fluently. I also think that it is easier to
> Jan> learn another language if you know another language with
> Jan> fairly the same grammar to begin with.
>
> I don't have problems learning and keeping to know 10 or more computer
> languages. The problem with human languages seems not the complexity
> (quantity), but the size (quantity). You need to learn a lot of
> words, often groups with subtle differences. You need to learn a lot
> of idiomatic expressions, etc. Otherwise, you can't do much with a
> language. Without computer languages, you can be already quite
> expressive and productive (within the problem domain) with a very
> limited vocabulary.
Your example is better for illustrating the differences than the
similarities between programming and human commuication.
As you indicate you need no know just a few diffent programming
commands to make a lot of programs. If you know 2000 words (and the
basic grammars) of a language, you will probably read a lot of
unfamiliar words in a newspaper.
I guess you can suggest that computerprogramming has 2 different types
of grammer - objectoriented (is that the right English term?) and
"structural" (someuse that term for traditional programming
languages). Objectoriented is just a way to make the other way more
effective.
You use computer programming to solve problems. That is the easy part
when it comes to learning langues, in my experience. How to find the
way to the hotel, order a pizza with ham and cheese, tell your name
and ask for a ticket to Bergen on the right train, is the easy part.
The difficult part in my experience is discussions, unstructured
conversations and listen to someone talk about something you don't
know what is to begin with. Perhaps one could say, the more
unstructured the more difficult to communicate and the more
interesting conversation. Programming on the other hand one might
suggest is the science of structuring information to a degree where
every program is built from the same moduls of code used lots of times
before.
Jan
Aug 18th 2004, 4:00 am
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Let's talk about langages (Advice/Help)
On 17 Aug 2004 23:27:26 +0200, LEE Sau Dan
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> "Jan" == ?ystein <[email protected]> writes:
> Jan> Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the
> Jan> more you are exposed to that language. I think this is an
> Jan> important explanation why people in The Scandianivian
> Jan> countries and the Netherlands generally speaks better English
> Jan> than in onter countries on the European continent. The use
> Jan> subtitles instead of dubbing English speaking movies and tv
> Jan> programs.
>Maybe, the English speakers should start consider adding English
>subtitles to their English movies, so as to improve their capability
>of spelling English correctly? :)
I've seen it done in movies where the characters had a strong
regional accent.
There is European TV channel (Euro5?)which was carried on the
cable of the flat in Helsinki we used this summer. The channel is
all-French speaking. But some French movies are shown with French
subtitles(!). The spoken French was hard for me to follow but I
was able to follow the subtitles fairly well.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> "Jan" == ?ystein <[email protected]> writes:
> Jan> Another point is that it is easier to learn a language the
> Jan> more you are exposed to that language. I think this is an
> Jan> important explanation why people in The Scandianivian
> Jan> countries and the Netherlands generally speaks better English
> Jan> than in onter countries on the European continent. The use
> Jan> subtitles instead of dubbing English speaking movies and tv
> Jan> programs.
>Maybe, the English speakers should start consider adding English
>subtitles to their English movies, so as to improve their capability
>of spelling English correctly? :)
I've seen it done in movies where the characters had a strong
regional accent.
There is European TV channel (Euro5?)which was carried on the
cable of the flat in Helsinki we used this summer. The channel is
all-French speaking. But some French movies are shown with French
subtitles(!). The spoken French was hard for me to follow but I
was able to follow the subtitles fairly well.
************* DAVE HATUNEN ([email protected]) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
