Mxsmanic

randee writes:

    > And I will argue it takes more time than that. I only considered myself
    > reasonably passable in technical German after 4 years of study, not
    > really fluent.

Four years of full-time study, eight hours a day?

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Icono Clast

Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
    > In the United States, instructors tend to be so incompetent in the
    > spoken languages they teach that anyone other than a rank beginner
    > sounds native to them.

Many long ago in Celaya, Mexico, we dropt into a cantina in
mid-afternoon. Everyone in the place was surrounding the same table.
There was much laughter. We peeked to see what was the source of such
glee to hear a couple of Spanish "teachers" from a plains state
speaking with precisely the same accent that Mario Moreno (Cantinflas)
used to mimic North Americans.

I didn't know whether to laugh in derision or cry in embarrassment.
The Mexicans couldn't help themselves.
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Mxsmanic

Icono Clast writes:

    > I didn't know whether to laugh in derision or cry in embarrassment.
    > The Mexicans couldn't help themselves.

How did the teachers react to this?

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Magda

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:40:47 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Ruud Harmsen
<[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

... Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:23:45 +1000: [email protected]: in sci.lang:
...
... >I can't argue with that. Absolutely true!! I only didn't want the
... >learner to get discouraged if he was having trouble with tv early
... >on... But of course the ultimate challenge is to understand tv/radio
... >as that is so much harder than normal conversation.
...
... Strange. I understand all or most of the Portuguese tv news, as long
... as it is _not_ normal conversation (street interviews). Of other
... normal conversation, I understand most, enough to get by, as long as I
... take part in it; but virtually nothing if it's between native
... speakers.

Maybe the natives use a lot of slang/idiomatic expressions, or maybe they speak faster
than TV journalists. Is it easier for you to understand the Brazilian ?

Antonia

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:40:47 +0200, Ruud Harmsen wrote:
    >Sun, 15 Aug 2004 09:23:45 +1000: [email protected]: in sci.lang:
    >>I can't argue with that. Absolutely true!! I only didn't want the
    >>learner to get discouraged if he was having trouble with tv early
    >>on... But of course the ultimate challenge is to understand tv/radio
    >>as that is so much harder than normal conversation.

    >Strange. I understand all or most of the Portuguese tv news, as long
    >as it is _not_ normal conversation (street interviews). Of other
    >normal conversation, I understand most, enough to get by, as long as I
    >take part in it; but virtually nothing if it's between native
    >speakers.

I am the same way - no great problem with TV (esp. news and
infomercials) or radio in German, get the gist and a bit more
from newspapers, easier books etc but can't talk or
participate/understand real life conversation very well at all.

In general, for languages I've never studied but been exposed to
(Estonian, French) I find that I "get" newspapers and TV long
before "real life". Especially if I find it fun - picking up a
newspaper in a language you only have a "thank you, good morning
& restaurant" -knowledge of can be very entertaining. The local
stuff is usually incomprehensible but with a little guesswork the
international news is usually quite understandable.

    >So what is "normal conversation"? And how it is easier.

I wonder that too. For me all participatory language skills come
*much* later than the purely receptory ones.

Perhaps people just learn languages in very different ways? Or
perhaps you learn your 3d, 4th and later languages using another
mechanism than you do your first two?

Antonia Palmén

Ruud Harmsen

Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:29:32 +0200: Magda <[email protected]>: in
sci.lang:

    >Maybe the natives use a lot of slang/idiomatic expressions, or maybe they speak faster
    >than TV journalists.

S'pose so.

    >Is it easier for you to understand the Brazilian ?

Hardly. I had less exposure to had, willingly, because I decided to
concentrate my efforts on Portugal.

--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com

Ruud Harmsen

Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:04:51 +0300: Antonia <[email protected]>: in
sci.lang:

    >I wonder that too. For me all participatory language skills come
    >*much* later than the purely receptory ones.
    >Perhaps people just learn languages in very different ways? Or
    >perhaps you learn your 3d, 4th and later languages using another
    >mechanism than you do your first two?

It may play a role that participaton, and learning sufficient skills
to be able to take part, requires more active learning, and the
decision to start learning. This is illustrated by my stubbourn
writing in English in Portuguese speaking newsgroups, even in response
to Portuguese postings - which I understand quite well. That's simply
because for writing in Portuguese, other than reading it, I have to
make a concious effort, thinking what words and grammatical structures
to use, remembering and looking up what is missing (although I often
know it, but without having it readily available mentally). I'm often
too lazy for that. It's bad, I know, but it happens. I'd make much
faster progress if only I more often overcame these hurdles.


--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com

Devil

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:57:27 +0200, Ruud Harmsen wrote:

    > Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:29:32 +0200: Magda <[email protected]>: in
    > sci.lang:
    >
    >>Maybe the natives use a lot of slang/idiomatic expressions, or maybe they speak faster
    >>than TV journalists.
    >
    > S'pose so.
    >
    >>Is it easier for you to understand the Brazilian ?
    >
    > Hardly. I had less exposure to had, willingly, because I decided to
    > concentrate my efforts on Portugal.

Should be easier, if only because they tend to speak more slowly.

Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj

Mxsmanic wrote:
    > Padraig Breathnach writes:
    >
    >
    >>To what extent is that because their interlocutors adjust to their
    >>needs -- speaking more slowly and correctly, simplifying language
    >>structure, checking that what they say is understood?
    >
    >
    > To a great extent. Unfortunately, that creates the false impression
    > that the speaker is more competent than she really is, for both her and
    > her interlocutor.
    >
    >
    >>I find that comprehensibility of TV broadcasts varies from highly
    >>accessible to just about totally incomprehensible. Face-to-camera
    >>programmes, like news bulletins, are generally easier for me.
    >
    >
    > Many of my students can't even understand that, although they get by
    > surprisingly well face-to-face.
    >
    > One test I use is to ask a completely off-the-wall question. If they
    > are fluent, they understand and reply. If I get a blank look, I know
    > that they are depending on non-linguistic cues or other "crutches" to
    > understand what is being said.
    >
Mr. Mxsmanic
But perhaps you are getting the blank look in response to your
"off-the-wall" questions because of its conflict with the
surrounding context. i.e. the words may be understood, but
"what's the weather like in Australia to-day ?"
out of the blue clashes with a conversation about what are
we having for dinner this evening.
Also understanding a radio news broadcast may depend on
hearing & comprehension problems in general. For example,
I am seldom able to understand the lyrics of a musical
perfoemance even in my native language.

So have you ever tried to adjust your conclusions by
removing the covariance effect of fluency of the students
in their native language?

Mxsmanic

Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj writes:

    > But perhaps you are getting the blank look in response to your
    > "off-the-wall" questions because of its conflict with the
    > surrounding context. i.e. the words may be understood, but
    > "what's the weather like in Australia to-day ?"

Native speakers don't give me a blank look. There may be no contextual
clues, but someone with native fluency will still understand the
question. Someone without that fluency won't, because he doesn't
actually understand much of anything, and normally depends on context to
_guess_ what he is hearing.

    > So have you ever tried to adjust your conclusions by
    > removing the covariance effect of fluency of the students
    > in their native language?

In their native language they can understand the identical question
instantly.

--
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Magda

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:04:56 +0200, in rec.travel.europe, Ruud Harmsen
<[email protected]> arranged some electrons, so they looked like this :

... It may play a role that participaton, and learning sufficient skills
... to be able to take part, requires more active learning, and the
... decision to start learning. This is illustrated by my stubbourn
... writing in English in Portuguese speaking newsgroups, even in response
... to Portuguese postings - which I understand quite well. That's simply
... because for writing in Portuguese, other than reading it, I have to
... make a concious effort, thinking what words and grammatical structures
... to use, remembering and looking up what is missing (although I often
... know it, but without having it readily available mentally). I'm often
... too lazy for that. It's bad, I know, but it happens. I'd make much
... faster progress if only I more often overcame these hurdles.

Queres ajuda ?

J.E.R.

[email protected] (Wassup its Will) wrote in message news:<[email protected]. com>...
    > Greetings,
    >
[deleted introduction]
    > For
    > French, I sometimes go to bed listening to French radio, and I do some
    > reading out loud. For Italian, I read out sentences, but I don't feel
    > that I'm comfortable enough to go into audio yet.

An additional help might be DVDs - I buy only DVDs with
at least the original soundtrack, try first listening to
the original soundtrack with subtitles in a language
I am more familiar with, and then start again with
subtitles in the original language. Or try to listen
to some synchronisation in other languages.

Best probably is to find an occasion travelling to or even
working in an environment where only the language you
want to learn is spoken

    > Now my questions:-
    > 1) Does it matter that you can't understand audio? Should I listen to
    > Italian radio as well?

Definitely, if you learn languages for communicating with
other people.
My impression always was that being able to understand the
lyrics of songs was the point I considered being able to
understand a [new] language

    > 2) I'm greedy. I want to learn another language. I'm torn. Is it a bad
    > idea to start learning a THIRD language while I'm at staggered levels
    > of French and Italian? It won't mess me up will it?

If you really want to learn a language for speaking it,
then best probably is to stick with one new language at
a time. Whenever I started learning a new language, I used
to mix up mostly with the language I was least familiar
with.
But if you want to compare vocabulary and language structures
for more an academic purpose, then adding Spanish/Portuguese
would be choice

    > 3) Three languages. I don't know which to choose. I'm debating between
    > Spanish, Russian and German. Each have their advantages and
    > disadvantages.
    >
    > I have a few Latin friends, as a soccer fan it'd be great to read the
    > Spanish media like La Marca?
    >
    > German will be a departure from the comfortable "romance language"
    > thing I've got going. I'm also into history, and philosophy, and there
    > is probably a lot of German literature on that> I just admire German
    > civilization throughout history.
    >
    > Then there is Russian for the challenge. Non-Roman alphabet.

Cyrillic alphabet is not a challenge. Easy to learn, and once
you know it, you will find some common roots for many words.
For both Russian and German, Grammar is the challenge

    > Is there anything you can tell me about the disadvantages and
    > dissadvantages of the aforementioned three languages?
    >
    > The main thing is that I want to be better at what I'm doing, and I'm
    > finding it really rewarding when I see or hear the odd phrases in
    > movies or print, and I recognize them because of my studies!

Definitely the right approach. Learning other languages is
imho not only a challenge, but also a privilege, the main
reward the possibility meeting and talking to people using
different languages and - more important - cultural backgrounds.
To me, approaching a good level of understanding a new
language was always kind of feeling the world becoming larger,
the horizon reaching further than before

And as one of our teachers once said in a TV-interview: the
problem learning languages is the first half dozen - from
then on its becoming easy ...
I admit I still have not reached that point :-)

J.-E.(Hans)Rotzetter

Captain!

Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > In the United States, instructors tend to be so incompetent in the
    > > spoken languages they teach that anyone other than a rank beginner
    > > sounds native to them.

countries like the united states are full of immigrants who teach their
native languages to students wishing to learn them.
this has got to be one of the most pathetic america bashing reasons i have
ever seen.

Captain!

"Icono Clast" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] om...
    > Mxsmanic <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > In the United States, instructors tend to be so incompetent in the
    > > spoken languages they teach that anyone other than a rank beginner
    > > sounds native to them.
    > Many long ago in Celaya, Mexico, we dropt into a cantina in
    > mid-afternoon. Everyone in the place was surrounding the same table.
    > There was much laughter. We peeked to see what was the source of such
    > glee to hear a couple of Spanish "teachers" from a plains state
    > speaking with precisely the same accent that Mario Moreno (Cantinflas)
    > used to mimic North Americans.
    > I didn't know whether to laugh in derision or cry in embarrassment.
    > The Mexicans couldn't help themselves.

mexicans are north americans (even uneducated ones).

so people come to mexico and try to speak the native language and they get
laughed at. if they are being laughed at because they sound funny then that
is one thing but if they are being laughed at because they don't have
perfect accents then that is just lame.

Randee

Not hardly, one does have other courses to take!
--
wf.

Mxsmanic wrote:
    >
    > randee writes:
    >
    > > And I will argue it takes more time than that. I only considered myself
    > > reasonably passable in technical German after 4 years of study, not
    > > really fluent.
    >
    > Four years of full-time study, eight hours a day?